Does hell exist?

[OldShepherd]

5th April 2003 at 02:10 AM FineLinen said this in Post #276

Famous Quotes Of The Day

"Ph.D's are just some dudes opinion."

Blatant, maliciously false statement! You have made this false accusation more than once and you have never produced your proof.

"I don't have time to look up my scriptures and yours too."

You got that right. You want to offer a scripture passage in support of your argument, then quote the passage, not just the book, chapter, and verse numbers.

"A real scholar is one who is widely recognized as having expertise by his peers in the field, and or whose works are used in or by a major college or university."

Correcta mundo, Mssr Linen a recognized authority in the relevant field. For example, I don't think I would want open heart surgery by a proctologist, although he may be the best in his(her) field. Capice? And not just somebody who happened to get a book published or somebody that sells his own books thru his website.

 

[OldShepherd]

5th April 2003 at 04:05 AM FineLinen said this in Post #278

Dr. Marvin Vincent Romans Chapter 5

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincentrom5.htm

Vine's Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000932

"Even"= kai= and/also/even/indeed/but

"So"= houto= In this manner/ thus/ so.

And exactly what is your point? You are not saying anything more than I already said. "kai" is a copulative which means primarily "and" and as with our own English "and" it can be used in the sense of "even", "therefore", "also" and the word "outos translated "so" means, "thus", "this" etc. Neither word means EQUAL! Remember talking about both sides of the equation? There is NO equation, the writer was merely joining/transitioning between two clauses in a sentence. "kai outos" has no great theological significance.

 

[drmmjr]

Old Shepard,

A few posts back, you stated:

Did sin pass upon many, or did sin pass upon ALL of mankind, (Rom 5:12)? Does vs. 19 say that ALL are made righteous, or does it say MANY will be made righteous? What is the difference between ALL and MANY?

You also need to look at verse 18 as well.

Romans 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

As you will note, by one man, all men were condemned and in the same manner, by one man, all men have the free gift of justification of life. It's true that this is not an equation in a purely mathematical sense. But it is in the fact that it only took one man to affect all men in both cases (condemnation and justification). The reason that the results are not equal is that the gift of justification of life may not be accepted by all. If it was treated in the same manner as the condemnation, then it wouldn't have been a gift, and we wouldn't have to worry about anything anyway. We would already have the judgment of condemnation removed from us.

You ask if ALL are made righteous. They would be if they accepted the gift.

 

[Terry.Trent]

i'd like to thankdrmmjr for shedding some light on this debate-especially since that is pretty much what i said. if people would just read the little things like what i wrote, it wouldn't turn into a big argument-you don't always need 100 facts to prove something.

4th April 2003 at 12:18 PM Terry.Trent said this in Post #279

Ok, i'm not a schollar, or even a great studier of the bible, but I think that where it says 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:' (Romands 5:12), Paul was saying that all men sin. That means all men will die. Before I was saved, i as pretty much guarenteed to not goto heaven, as long as i didn't goto Christ.

So when it gets to verse 19, 'For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous', Paul is explaining how it is that God gave man a way to get out of death, and enter into life with Him. So verse 12 can't negate verse 19. the two are just explanations of each other.

(i could be wrong, but like i said: i'm not a schollar)

 

[Peace]

This conversation prompted me to do a quick word search on the world ALL to see how it is used in scripture.


Eph 1:10 …when all things are fulfilled and at the appointed time it is God's pleasure to gather ALL things in Christ.

Rm 11:36 … ALL things come from him and will return to him.

Col 1:20…It is the pleasure of God to reconciled ALL things to himself.

1 Cor 15:28 Christ shall become ALL in ALL things.

Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw ALL mankind unto Himself.
Rom 5:15-21 In Adam ALL men are condemned but because of Christ ALL things will live.

1 Cor 15:22 … in Christ ALL shall live.

Luke 2:10 … Jesus will become joy to ALL people.

Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill ALL things.

Rev 5:13; ALL creation seen praising God.

Rev 21:4,5; No more tears and ALL things made new.

Heb 1:2; Jesus is heir of ALL things.

Jn 13:35; The Father gave Him ALL things.

1 Tim 4:10 that Jesus is Savior of ALL! Especially those who believe on him.

Is 25:7 One day God will destroy the veil spread over ALL nations and his glory and victory will be known to every man.

These scriptures would seem to support a UR position. How else would they be explained?

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 03:50 PM Peace said this in Post #285

This conversation prompted me to do a quick word search on the world ALL to see how it is used in scripture.

Eph 1:10 …when all things are fulfilled and at the appointed time it is God's pleasure to gather ALL things in Christ.

Rm 11:36 … ALL things come from him and will return to him.

Col 1:20…It is the pleasure of God to reconciled ALL things to himself.

1 Cor 15:28 Christ shall become ALL in ALL things.

Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw ALL mankind unto Himself.
Rom 5:15-21 In Adam ALL men are condemned but because of Christ ALL things will live.

1 Cor 15:22 … in Christ ALL shall live.

Luke 2:10 … Jesus will become joy to ALL people.

Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill ALL things.

Rev 5:13; ALL creation seen praising God.

Rev 21:4,5; No more tears and ALL things made new.

Heb 1:2; Jesus is heir of ALL things.

Jn 13:35; The Father gave Him ALL things.

1 Tim 4:10 that Jesus is Savior of ALL! Especially those who believe on him.

Is 25:7 One day God will destroy the veil spread over ALL nations and his glory and victory will be known to every man.

These scriptures would seem to support a UR position. How else would they be explained?

Does the word "ALL" only appear thirteen (13) times in the entire New Testament? How about quoting some of those OTHER times it does NOT support your presuppositions?

PS: I did my own count the word "ALL" occurs 982 times in the N.T., why did you post only 13?

 

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday at 11:46 PM drmmjr said this in Post #283

You ask if ALL are made righteous. They would be if they accepted the gift.

That is precisely my point! All WOULD be made righteous IF they accepted the gift. But Revelation is very clear there are many who do NOT accept the gift and are cast into the lake of fire, where the smoke of their toment goes up forever and ever, and they get no rest day or night! But there are a few here who believe that ALL of mankind, 100%, will be granted eternal life and spend an eternity with the Father, regardless how they have lived in this lifetime.

 

[FineLinen]

"Then those who revered the Lord conversed with one another; and the Lord listened attentively and heard...."

There are 4664 verses of the Ancient Words containing all in them. In the following New Covenant words please identify which do not mean all, and which alls you would like to replace with some.

Synecdoche/ Metonymy & Staggering Unbelief

All does not mean all! "It depends what is, is." (W.J. (Bubba) Clinton)

1 Cor. 15:22

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power."

Rev. 5:13

"And every created thing that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power unto the ages of the ages."

Col. 1:18-20

"He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in all things He might occupy the foremost place/to be in all things alone supreme.

For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in all its fulness should dwell.

And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated..."

Gal. 3:20

"But the Scripture has concluded/consigned all without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him."

Acts 3:20,21

"And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of all things. (when all things are put right)"

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

1 Cor. 15:25,27

"For He must reign until He hath put all enemies under His feet...For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him."

Romans 11:32

"For God has consigned all men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon all."

Eph. 4:10

"Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above all heavens, that He might fill all things with His Presence."

John 5:28

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

1 Timothy 2:4

"For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:6

"For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of all to be testified in due time."

2 Cor. 5:15

"For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for all, then were all dead; And that His purpose in dying for all was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life."

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were all things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and all the powers of Heaven)....all things were created by Him, and for Him (all were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand (has given Him control over everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually.

Heb. 1:2

"God...hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of all things)

2 Cor. 5:14

"For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of all, then all thereby became dead men. Christ died for us all, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for us and has risen again."

Heb.8:11

"And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every one his brother, saying get to know the Lord for all of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness..."

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of all.[/b]

Rom. 11:36

"For from him everything comes; through Him everything exists; and in him everything ends." (For of him and through him, and to him are all things.)

Eph. 4:6

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is over all, and works through all, and dwells in all."

Heb. 12:23

"To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of all men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect."

James 2:10

"For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating all."

Romans 3:22,23

"..the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. ...For all have sinned/none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/are deprived of the Divine splendour."

John 17:2

"As thou has made him sovereign over all mankind and he should give aeonial life to as many as thou has given him."

Romans 9:5

"The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above all, be blessed throughout the ages."

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people's conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for all to come/reach repentance."

"In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus every knee of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by beings in the heavens, of those on the earth and those in the underworld." Phil. 2:10-11

"The truths that seem to us irreconcilable only because our finite minds cannot understand the Infinite, must never be allowed by our faulty apprehension of the Eternal counsels of God to hinder unquestioning faith in the ancient words of Divine utterings." Birdy_56

 

 

 

[Peace]

[quote OS] Does the word "ALL" only appear thirteen (13) times in the entire New Testament? How about quoting some of those OTHER times it does NOT support your presuppositions?[end quote]

You are correct there are many more passages that refer to all and most of them do not challenge orthodox beliefs. The ones I posted were the ones that seem to speak a different message. I did not mean to neglect other passages and I’m not here to champion a personal dogma. There are, however, many verses that paint a different picture by orthodox understanding.

My interest is to know the truth and not to enter an argument, however, since I too do not think scripture can contradict itself it leaves me wondering how both could be true. How can God restore all things and yet separate some for eternity? If all really means all as you have stated then our traditional belief that many will be eternally separated from God would be suspect. There must be an explaination outside of denial or contradiction.

Maybe we could focus on one or two passages. For example Ephesians chapter 1. Even if you read the entire book we have to explain verses like 9 & 10.

…having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him.

Your position is of great interest to me and I will respect all positions that have biblical support. Please continue to share your thoughts? You are appreciated.

 

[FineLinen]

"For from Him everything comes; through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends." <BR><BR><BR>Vine's Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words <BR><BR>Topic: All <BR><BR><A-1,ADJECTIVE,3956,PAS> <BR><BR>radically means "all." Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph. 2:21, "every building," and the text in Eph. 3:15, "every family," and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, "every house;" or it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Acts 4:29. Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Matt. 2:3; Acts 2:36. Used with the article, it means the whole of one object. In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to." Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone." In the plural with a noun it means "all." One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Acts 20:35; 1 Cor. 9:25. The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., John 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9. See EVERY, Note (1), WHOLE. <BR><BR><A-2,ADJECTIVE,537,HAPAS> <BR><BR>a strengthened form of pas, signifies "quite all, the whole," and, in the plural, "all, all things." Preceded by an article and followed by a noun it means "the whole of." In 1 Tim. 1:16 the significance is "the whole of His longsuffering," or "the fulness of His longsuffering." See EVERY, WHOLE. <BR><BR><A-3,ADJECTIVE,3650,HOLOS> <BR><BR>"the whole, all," is most frequently used with the article followed by a noun, e.g., Matt. 4:23. It is used with the article alone, in John 7:23, "every whit;" Acts 11:26; 21:31; 28:30; Titus 1:11; Luke 5:5, in the best texts. See ALTOGETHER. <BR><BR>Note: The adjective holokleros, lit., "whole-lot, entire," stresses the separate parts which constitute the whole, no part being incomplete. See ENTIRE. <BR><BR><B-1,ADVERB,3654,HOLOS> <BR><BR>signifies "at all," Matt. 5:34; 1 Cor. 15:29; "actually," 1 Cor. 5:1, RV (AV, wrongly, "commonly"); "altogether," 1 Cor. 6:7 (AV, "utterly"). <BR><BR>Notes: (1) Holoteles, from A, No. 3, and telos, "complete," signifies "wholly, through and through," 1 Thess. 5:23, lit., "whole complete;" there, not an increasing degree of sanctification is intended, but the sanctification of the believer in every part of his being. <BR><BR>(2) The synonym katholou, a strengthened form of holou signifies "at all," Acts 4:18. <BR><BR><B-2,ADVERB,3843,PANTOS> <BR><BR>when used without a negative, signifies "wholly, entirely, by all means," Acts 18:21 (AV); 1 Cor. 9:22; "altogether," 1 Cor. 9:10; "no doubt, doubtless," Luke 4:23, RV (AV, surely"); Acts 28:4. In 21:22 it is translated "certainly," RV, for AV, "needs" (lit., "by all means"). With a negative it signifies "in no wise," Rom. 3:9; 1 Cor. 5:10; 16:12 ("at all"). See ALTOGETHER, DOUBT (NO), MEANS, SURELY, WISE. <BR><BR><C-1,PRONOUN,3745,HOSA> <BR><BR>the neuter plural of hosos, "as much as," chiefly used in the plural, is sometimes rendered "all that," e.g., Acts 4:23; 14:27. It really means "whatsoever things." See Luke 9:10, RV, "what things." <BR><BR>Dr. Marvin Vincent New Testament Word Studies <BR><BR>http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincent1cor15.htm <BR><BR>1 Cor. 15:22 "All-all. What the all means in the one case it means in the other." <BR><BR>Robertson's Word Pictures Of The New Testament <BR><BR>http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=1co&amp;chapter=015&amp;verse=022 <BR><BR>Greek New Testament <BR><BR>http://www.greeknewtestament.com <BR><BR>HTML Greek Study <BR><BR>http://www.htmlbible.com/ <BR><BR>Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T. Word Studies <BR><BR>http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincent.htm <BR><BR>http://www.cristianet.com.br/download/arquivo/WORD STUDIES IN.pdf <BR><BR>Vine's Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words <BR><BR>http://www.menfak.no/bibel/vines.html <BR><BR>Robertson's Word Pictures Of The New Testament <BR><BR>http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/rwp/ <BR><BR>Strongs Greek And Hebrew Dictionary <BR><BR>http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRINDEX.htm <BR><BR>The Blue Letter Bible <BR><BR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/ <BR><BR>Bible Crosswalk <BR><BR>http://bible.crosswalk.com <BR><BR>Romans 8: 11-23 <BR><BR>"In my reckoning, whatever we are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory that is going to burst upon us. For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show the world who his sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it. But the situation was never hopeless, because even the created universe itself will be liberated from its servitude to death's decay, and will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that up to now the whole created universe groans in all its parts, like a woman in the birthpangs. This is not only true of the created universe. We too, even although we have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us, so that we will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul."

 

[FineLinen]

Vine's Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words

Search All

http://www.menfak.no/bibel/vines.html

Dr. Marvin Vincent New Testament Word Studies

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincent1cor15.htm

1 Cor. 15:22 "All-all. What the all means in the one case it means in the other."

Robertson's Word Pictures Of The New Testament

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=1co&amp;chapter=015&amp;verse=022

Greek New Testament

http://www.greeknewtestament.com

HTML Greek Study

http://www.htmlbible.com/

Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T. Word Studies

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincent.htm

http://www.cristianet.com.br/download/arquivo/WORD STUDIES IN.pdf

Robertson's Word Pictures Of The New Testament

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/rwp/

Strongs Greek And Hebrew Dictionary

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRINDEX.htm

The Blue Letter Bible

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Bible Crosswalk

http://bible.crosswalk.com

Romans 8:11-23

"In my reckoning, whatever we are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory that is going to burst upon us. For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show the world who his sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it. But the situation was never hopeless, because even the created universe itself will be liberated from its servitude to death's decay, and will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that up to now the whole created universe groans in all its parts, like a woman in the birthpangs. This is not only true of the created universe. We too, even although we have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us, so that we will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul." Rom. 8:11-23

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 02:03 AM Peace said this in Post #289

[quote OS] Does the word "ALL" only appear thirteen (13) times in the entire New Testament? How about quoting some of those OTHER times it does NOT support your presuppositions?[end quote]

You are correct there are many more passages that refer to all and most of them do not challenge orthodox beliefs. The ones I posted were the ones that seem to speak a different message. I did not mean to neglect other passages and I’m not here to champion a personal dogma. There are, however, many verses that paint a different picture by orthodox understanding.

My interest is to know the truth and not to enter an argument, however, since I too do not think scripture can contradict itself it leaves me wondering how both could be true. How can God restore all things and yet separate some for eternity? If all really means all as you have stated then our traditional belief that many will be eternally separated from God would be suspect. There must be an explaination&nbsp;outside of denial or contradiction.

Maybe we could focus on one or two passages. For example Ephesians chapter 1. Even if you read the entire book we have to explain verses like 9 &amp; 10.

…having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him.

Your position is of great interest to me and I will respect all positions that have biblical support. Please continue to share your thoughts? You are appreciated

Who is the "us" in that passage? Is Paul writing a notice for public announcement or is he writing, "to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" (Eph 1;1)? The answer is this epistle is directed to faithful believers in Christ Jesus, first to Ephesus, then to all future generations of the faithful. Crooks, criminals, hoodlums, idolators, etc. are NOT "in Christ" therefore the blessings accruing to Christians are NOT theirs to claim.

Who does this verse say Christ will "gather together."? Does this verse say "ALL of mankind?" or does it say "all things in Christ." The faithful in Christ Jesus, vs. 1, and ALL such faithful will be gathered together. This clearly does NOT include the unfaithful and unrighteous, which is further reinforced by Paul's words in 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:21.

• 
  1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
  
  Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 03:21 AM FineLinen said this in Post #291

Omitted all the irrelevant spam, OS

Romans 8:11-23

"In my reckoning, whatever we are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory that is going to burst upon us. For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show the world who his sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it. But the situation was never hopeless, because even the created universe itself will be liberated from its servitude to death's decay, and will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that up to now the whole created universe groans in all its parts, like a woman in the birthpangs. This is not only true of the created universe. We too, even although we have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us, so that we will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul." Rom. 8:11-23

Who is Paul writing to in the epistle to the Romans? Is it a public announcement for the whole world or is it as Paul said;

• 
  Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
  4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
  5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: {for obedience…: or, to the obedience of faith}
  6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
  7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is abundantly clear that Paul is talking to Christians, those who have received Grace and Apostleship, called of Christ, called to be saints."Agios, Gr." and NOT to all the crooks, criminals, and hoodlums in the world.

"we [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints] are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory that is going to burst upon us [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints].

"God will show the world who his sons [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints] are.

"will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints].

"For we [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints] know that up to now the whole created universe groans * * *" The heathen world that does NOT know Christ does NOT know these things!

"We [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints] too, even although we [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints] have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints] wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints], so that we [Apostles, called of Christ, Saints] will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul."

 

[Peace]

Thank you for your response. I understand where you are coming from, but it seems like we are missing something.

Scripture also says that we are all blood-bought. He died for the world. If Christ purchased all humanity with his blood who has not been bought? If every tongue will one day confess and every knee will one-day bow, of those in heaven and earth and under the earth, who will not be found ‘in Christ’?

Paul also said that our righteousness is as filthy rags and none are righteous, and according to Christ if you look on a woman you are guilty of adultery. Are any of us able to live righteous lives worthy of self-redemption? This is something I have always wondered about... if heaven is reserved for only those who are worthy why did we need Christ’ sacrifice? Why not just judge us all on our own merits and none of would make the grade.

Is it possible that salvation may have more to do with entering in to life today, and not some future promise?

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 11:11 AM Peace said this in Post #294

Thank you for your response. I understand where you are coming from, but it seems like we are missing something.

Scripture also says that we are all blood-bought. He died for the world. If Christ purchased all humanity with his blood who has not been bought? If every tongue will one day confess and every knee will one-day bow, of those in heaven and earth and under the earth, who will not be found ‘in Christ’?

Paul also said that our righteousness is as filthy rags and none are righteous, and according to Christ if you look on a woman you are guilty of adultery. Are any of us able to live righteous lives worthy of self-redemption? This is something I have always wondered about... if heaven is reserved for only those who are worthy why did we need Christ’ sacrifice? Why not just judge us all on our own merits and none of would make the grade.

Is it possible that salvation may have more to do with entering in to life today, and not some future promise?

In what context does the scripture say we are ALL blood bought? Quote the scripture and see who it is addressed to.

• 
  Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

He purchased "the church of God" with His blood!

"If Christ purchased all humanity with his blood who has not been bought?" Where does the scripture say that Jesus purchased all of humanity with His blood??

That is right all who reject God and Jesus Christ in this life will one day bow the knee and acknowledge the Jesus Christ is Lord, but it will be too late for many, because Jesus will say, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you.

'Paul also said that our righteousness is as filthy rags and none are righteous," It wasn't Paul, it was the prophet Isaiah, ca. 700 BC. And since you have mentioned it look up the word translated "filthy rags" It is something I would not mention in polite company. And that is correct, APART from the righteousness of Christ, all our righteousnesses are "filthy rags."

• 
  Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

"and according to Christ if you look on a woman you are guilty of adultery." Wrong, Jesus said if you look on a woman to "lust after her, you have committed adultery already in your heart." That does not mean a passing glance as someone walks past.

"Are any of us able to live righteous lives worthy of self-redemption?" Not without Jesus!

"if heaven is reserved for only those who are worthy why did we need Christ’ sacrifice?' Exactly what do you mean 'worthy"? You're partially right, why do we need Christ's sacrifice? All of mankind is free to reject the free gift of God's Son and pay the full penalty for their own sins, if they choose.

"Why not just judge us all on our own merits and none of would make the grade." Exactly, that is why we need a redeemer, Savior, and mediator, which is Christ Jesus.

"Is it possible that salvation may have more to do with entering in to life today, and not some future promise?" Actually it has to do with this life and the future world."

Despite your initial disclaimer your purpose does appear to be to argue. As with many who belong to groups which teach unorthodox doctrines, not accepted by mainline Christianity, you are NOT presenting a systematic exegesis of the scriptures but a piece of a verse here and a part of a verse there, unrelated verses from different contexts and trying to put them together to make them fit your doctrine. This is called "proof texting", as opposed to systematic Theology, which considers the totality of scripture.

 

[Peace]

I’m not sure what group you think I belong to. I’m not involved in a church or denomination but I do have a great interest in theology and scripture. That’s why I’m interested your view as much as FL.

You can argue if you like but I would prefer to ask questions and learn from others. I believe we are all in this together and I am more than willing to let your iron sharpen my iron. I would hope we could do this without arguing.

So you would say that Christ' blood was only shed for the saint and not the sinner. Is that correct?

You asked

"Where does the scripture say that Jesus purchased all of humanity with His blood?"

Didn’t Christ die while we were yet sinners? Doesn't scripture say that Christ was the Lamb slain for the world? Didn't John say that "behold the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world?" (John 1:29)

Was the penalty for sin dealt with in full or only in part?

And what about this passage... and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1John 2:2)

What does propitiation mean to you? And to whom does it apply?

That is right all who reject God and Jesus Christ in this life will one day bow the knee and acknowledge the Jesus Christ is Lord, but it will be too late for many, because Jesus will say, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you. (unquote OS)

So let me see if I understand your picture of God…. He will force people to confess him as Lord and then send them to eternal torment. Is that what you believe?&nbsp;&nbsp;Do you also believe that&nbsp;God's love is unconditional?

Please don’t get mad I’m just asking for your opinion not your anger.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 03:04 PM Peace said this in Post #296

I’m not sure what group you think I belong to. I’m not involved in a church or denomination but I do have a great interest in theology and scripture. That’s why I’m interested your view as much as FL.

I didn't say or imply that you are associated with any group, I compared your response to such groups.

So you would say that Christ' blood was only shed for the saint and not the sinner. Is that correct?

Where did I say this? Who do you think Christ's blood was shed for?

Didn’t Christ die while we were yet sinners?

Who is we? Who was that written to, what is the context, what are the circumstances?

Doesn't scripture say that Christ was the Lamb slain for the world?

Where and in what context?

Didn't John say that "behold the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world?" (John 1:29)

What is the context? What does that mean? If Jesus is the lamb that took away the sin of the whole world then there has been no sin since His death, has there? No murders, no robbery or theft, no lying and false witnessing, etc. etc. etc.

Was the penalty for sin dealt with in full or only in part?

What is the penalty for sin and how and where was it dealt with, by whom and how does that affect others?

And what about this passage... and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1John 2:2)

What is the context? To whom is this written what are the circumstances, to whom does it apply and how?

What does propitiation mean to you? And to whom does it apply?

Why don't you start off by telling what propritiation means to you and to whom it applies.

So let me see if I understand your picture of God…. He will force people to confess him as Lord and then send them to eternal torment. Is that what you believe?&nbsp;&nbsp;Do you also believe that&nbsp;God's love is unconditional?

For someone who claims to not want to argue, why are you making false accusations? Where did I say any of these things? Do you think that God's love is unconditional? Do you think that people like Jeffrey Daumer, John Wayne Gacy, the Hillside Strangler, Son of Sam, and other mass murders, will spend eternity with the Creator, along with all the saints? Will Mother Theresa and Adolf Hitler walk hand in hand in the new heaven and new earth?

The problem with this entire line of questioning is they are out-of-context. If you like, I can link to a Muslim web site which has a similar list of asinine questions which, in their eyes, proves Islam right and Christianity wrong, from the Bible. I also know some good LDS sites with a similar list of questions. Just like yours they all have one thing in common selected misleading questions about selected out-of-context passages.

Please don’t get mad I’m just asking for your opinion not your anger.

No, you are not, too many assumptions and false accusations. You appear to be just another Universalist, with a long laundry list of irrelevent out-of-context questions.

But since you are so fond of questions here a few of my own. What is the lake of fire and who is sent there and why?

• 
  Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
  
  Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
  
  Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
  
  Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
  
  Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
  
  Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
  
  Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  
  Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does unconditional love include those who worship the beast and his image, and those who receive the mark of the beast, the fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars?

In light of the final book of the Bible, written long after all your selected "ALL" passages were, would you tell us how your views on "unconditional love" "the lamb that was slain", "the propitiation for sin", etc. relate to these passages?

I have no intention of playing your asinine little twenty questions game. You do not appear to be here to learn, this is so transparent, even Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can see you have an agenda.

You have failed to address my responses, just posted more questions. What I suggest you do is go to your browser and type Systematic theology online and you will get more answers than you know what to do with.

 

[FineLinen]

Eph. 1:9,10

"He made known to us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He purposed in himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ both which are in heaven and which are in earth even in him."

"He made known to us the mystery"

Mystery= Musterion=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=3466&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

"According to His kind intention"

Kind intention= Eudokia=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=2107&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

"His kind intention which He purposed"

Purposed= Protithemi=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=4388&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

"In the fulness of times"

Fulness= Pleroma=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=4138&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

Times= Kairos=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=2540&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

"He might gather together in One"

Together in One= Anekephalaimai=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=346&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

"All things in Christ"

All things= Pas=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=3956&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

"Both which are in heaven and which are on earth"

Heaven= Ouranos=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=3772&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

Earth= Ge=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=1093&amp;version=kjv&amp;type=eng

"Even in Him."

"He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence. He predestined us...such being His gracious will and pleasure--to the praise of the splendour of His grace...in the beloved One.

It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will.

And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--

the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.

In Him, too, we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will..."

"For God has allowed us to know the musterion/secret of His plan, and it is this: He purposes in His sovereign will that all human history shall be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in Him."

Abba Father

http://newhopemusic.com/abba.htm

 

[FineLinen]

Eph 1:9

"Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself:

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" (AKJV)

"Making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him"

"Unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say," (ASV)

"He made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,"[/b]

"As a plan for the fullness of the times, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth. In him." (Common)

"Having made clear to us the secret of his purpose, in agreement with the design which he had in mind, to put into his hands."

"Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself."

"For the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth; in him," (Darby)

"The ordering of the times when they are complete, so that all things might come to a head in Christ, the things in heaven and the things on the earth; in him, I say," (BBE)

"Making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him"

To an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Messiah, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in him;" (HNV)

"When he made known to us the secret of his will. This was according to his plan that he set forth in Christ"

"To usher in the fullness of the times and to gather up all things in Christ, both things in heaven and things on earth.
(ISV)

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"
(KJV)

"Having made known to us the secret of his will according to his benevolent purpose, which he had purposed in himself,"

"For the administration of the fullness of the appointed times, to gather together all under Christ--all in the heavens, and all on the earth--under him:" (LO)

"When he made known to us, I say, that good pleasure which he purposed in himself"

"For the government of the fulness of the ages, that all things in heaven and earth alike should be gathered up in Christ, as Head." (Montgomery)

"And he hath made us know the mystery of his pleasure, which he had before determined in himself to accomplish,"

"In the dispensation of the fullness of times; that all things might again be made new in the Messiah, things in heaven and things on earth." (Murdock)

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in the Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" (RNKJV)

"Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" (R.Webster)

"Making known to us the sacred secret of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him,—"

"For an administration of the fulness of the seasons, to reunite for himself (under one head) the all things in the Christ, the things upon the heavens, and the things upon the earth, in him:" (Rotherham)

"Making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him"

"To an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in him;" (WEB)

"When He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose"

"For the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." (Francis Weymouth)

"Having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,"

"In regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;" (YLT)

&nbsp;

All Hail The Power Of Jesus Name

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/h/ahtpojn.htm

"In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus every knee of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of his lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by beings in the heavens, of those on the earth and those in the underworld." Phil. 2:10,11

"And everything that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power unto the ages of the ages."

 

[FineLinen]

Our&nbsp;Triumphant Lord

"Hina en onoma lesous pas gonu kampto epouranios kai epigeious kai katachthonios kai pas glossa hoti lesous Christos kurios eis doxa Theos Pater." Phil. 2: 10,11

"It is because of this also that God has so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other name.

In order that IN/ EIS&nbsp;the Name of Jesus (so that in adoration of the Name of Jesus) every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Bow=Kampto=

Used of worshippers.

To bow/bend one's self.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2578&amp;version=

Confess= Exomologeo=

Confess/ profess.

A. To acknowledge openly and freely.

B. To celebrate/ give praise to.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1843&amp;version=

Exomologeo Rooted In Homologeo

Homologeo=

To confess.

To declare.

A. To profess/ declare openly and freely.

B. To profess one's self the worshipper of one.

C. To praise and celebrate.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3670&amp;version=

When our Lord speaks of bringing every knee to bow, and every tongue to confession in/eis the name of Jesus, He is declaring that all beings in the heavens the earth and the underworld will willingly confess, openly and freely, in worship &amp; praise &amp; celebration, that He is the Lord.

Questions

1. What does homologeo mean?

2. What does exomologeo mean?

3. Is the worship of beings in the heavens and the earth and the underworld forced or free?&nbsp;

4. What does reconcile mean and how does it compare with subdue? &nbsp;

&nbsp;

Thine Oh Lord Is The Glory

http://newhopemusic.com/thine.htm