• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Does hell exist?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mgairs, Dec 31, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rae Naval

    Rae Naval New Member

    13
    +0
    I gotta say sorry first of all cause i didn't read all the posts in this topic.
    But first of I'd have to say that you have to take the depictions of hell figuratively. I mean for a place filled with fire to be a dark place all at the same time doesn't make sense. Second I also believe that hell is separation from God. God being all that is good, separation from that would be all that is bad(think heat, a lack of heat is just cold). I don't feel that God is attempting to use coercive power over us, he has made things as simple as possible: allow me into your lives or don't. The latter meaning eternal separation.
     
  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    "I mean for a place filled with fire to be a dark place all at the same time doesn't make sense." Have you ever watched professional racing? I have watched them refueling the cars with the special racing fuel they use and several times I have seen the pit crew members start yelling and waving their hands, other crew members would start spraying them with fire extinguishers. They were on fire but you could not see any flames. How do you figure that?
     
  3. Rae Naval

    Rae Naval New Member

    13
    +0
    cause it's not dark outside.
     
  4. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Prove that is the reason. But there is also another possibility. Just heard about a subway disaster in Korea 120+ people killed. An arsonist threw a burning flammable liquid in the subway station, burned two subway trains with several cars. Although there was fire it was dark. Care to take a guess why? Smoke! The same thing ahppened in Kuwait when the Iraqis pulled out and set hundreds of oil wells on fire, although there were hundreds of fires it was dark, from the smoke. Since it is possible for darkness to exist in the presence of fire in our own experience I'm sure a supernatural God would have no problem having fire and darkness at the same time.
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    OK OS, I'll play you silly childish game and not even use the comma as an argument.  You still continue to not only sidestep my questions, but you haven't even been able to refute my argument about the statements made by Jesus which brings me to present another question to you.

    If Christ went to Paradise that very day, He would surely have gone into the very presence of God. If Jesus ascended to the father that day, then was he lying to Mary?  for he said to Mary three days later, after he had been raised from the dead, "…I am not yet ascended to My Father…" (John 20:17)


    Go ahead OS, give it your best shot! 



     
     
  6. beanbagboy1982

    beanbagboy1982 New Member

    86
    +0
    Christian
    i told someone this once:
    you say there is no hell and no GOD.
    ok, i belive in God and you dont, and there is no GOd, then nothing will happen,
    But lets say there is a God and there is a hell, who do you think will be safe?
    Hell exists and we all know it, even though some people deny it.
    I LOVE GOD
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    BBB, Who is your God?

    Great tormentor, Great Annihilator, or Great Savior?

    http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellEncyclopedia/HellEncyclo.html
     
  8. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    BBB,

    If eternal torment IS TRUE, then Jesus Christ will torture forever the whole human race, except the small handful who will be saved. In one hour, in a hot searing hell, our Lord will inflict more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during his entire life. 


    If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.

    Have you ever meditated even for ten minutes on the absurdity of being tortured like this for eternity? 
     
  9. Rae Naval

    Rae Naval New Member

    13
    +0

    It's only dark above the flames. where the smoke is. But to actually be in fire itself, to actually have your body covered in fire would not be dark. Unless those in hell don't actually enter the fire and just hover above I'd have to think that you're wrong. If it doesnt' look like a flame in any sense of what we imagine a flame to be who's to say it is. Unless God is speaking figuratively. For all your trying to argue hell could just be really hot water. Dark and really hot. All i'm saying is that I don't think Hell is actually fire, maybe being separated from God actually burns (I'd imagine it actually hurts alot to completely be out of the prescence of all that is good). I'm not trying to make hell out to be some walk in the park I'm pretty sure it's the worse possible thing I just doubt it's literally fire.

    To add i also believe that if we are to enter hell it is our own doing, our seperation from God is the choice we make if we deny him.
     
  10. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Hi RN,  What is the meaning of the word "hell" in the Old Testament and the New Testament? 

    In the Old Testament, it is translated from one word, Sheol. In the New Testament, "hell" is translated from three words, tartaroo, Hades, and Gehenna. It does not teach a place of conscious souls. The Greek Septuagint, which our Lord used when he read or quoted from the Old Testament, gives Hades as the exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, and when the Savior, or his apostles, used the word, they meant the same as is meant in the Old Testament. Thus, the New Testament usage agrees exactly with the Old Testament. Literally, Hades means "death" or the "grave"; and figuratively, it means "destruction".   
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,637
    Non-Denom
    Greetings brother Franklin. The doctrine of hell and everlasting torment are based on the following Scriptures of the Old Covenant. What do you think the chances are that the Predestined Lord of the Universe, our Lord and Soter Jesus Christ, announced by the Angelic Host as the Bearer of glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people, enhanced the dogma that is based on these Ancient words?

    Let's have a small test today. Identify from the Old Covenant Scriptures where eternal torment is based. Can you identify which Scriptures are translated hell, and which are translated grave in the K.J.V?

    Final Jeopardy has begun....

    [email protected]'owl= Hell= 31 verses

    [email protected]'owl= Grave= 29 verses

    [email protected]'owl= Grave

    [email protected]'owl= Hell


    The following Scriptures are the entire Old Covenant expression for [email protected]'owl. This is your assignment for today. Tell us which Scriptures mean hell and which Scriptures mean the grave.

    Gen. 37:15

    "And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him."

    Gen. 42:38

    "And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to sheol. "

    Gen. 44:29

    "And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to sheol."

    Gen. 44:31

    "It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to sheol."

    Deut. 32:22

    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn into the lowest sheol, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

    1 Samuel 2:6

    "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to sheol, and bringeth up again."

    2 Samuel 22:6

    "The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me."

    1 Kings 2:6

    "Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to sheol in peace."

    1 Kings 2:9

    "Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to sheol with blood."

    Job 7:9

    "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to sheol shall come up no more."

    Job 11:8

    "It is high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than sheol; what canst thou know?"

    Job 14:13

    "O that thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that thou wouldest deep in secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!"

    Job 17:13

    "If I wait, sheol is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness."

    Job 21:13

    "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to sheol."

    Job 24:19

    "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth sheol to those which have sinned."

    Job 26:6

    "Sheol is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering."

    Psl. 6:5

    "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in sheol who shall give thee thanks?

    Psl. 9:17

    "The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God."

    Psl. 16:10

    "For thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

    Psl. 18:5

    "The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me."

    Psl. 30:3

    "Oh Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from sheol: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit."

    Psl. 31:17

    "Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in sheol."

    Psl. 49:14

    "Like sheep they are laid in sheol; death shall feed them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in sheol from their dwelling."

    Psl. 49:15

    "But God will redeem my soul from the power of sheol: for he shall receive me."

    Psl. 55:15

    "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into sheol; for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them."

    Psl. 86:13

    "For great is thy mercy toward me; and thou has delivered my soul from the lowest sheol."

    Psl. 88:3

    "For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth unto sheol."

    Psl. 89:48

    "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of sheol? Selah "

    Psl. 116:3

    "The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of sheol gat hold of me: I found trouble and sorrow."

    Psl. 139:8

    "If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in sheol, behold, thou art there."

    Psl. 141:7

    "Our bones are scattered at sheols mouth, as one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth."

    Eccl. 9:19

    "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in shoel, whither thou goest."

    Proverbs 1:12

    "Let us swallow them up alive as sheol; and whole, as those that go down into the pit."

    Proverbs 7:27

    "Her house is the way to sheol, going down to the chambers of death."

    Proverbs 9:18

    "But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of sheol."

    Prov. 5:5

    "Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on sheol."

    Proverbs 15:11

    "Shoel and destruction are before the Lord; how much more then, the hearts of men?"

    Prov. 15:24

    "The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from sheol beneath."

    Prov. 23:14

    "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from sheol."

    Prov. 27:20

    "Sheol and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied."

    Proverbs 30:16

    "Sheol; and the barren womb; the earth that is filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough."

    Song Of Solomon 8:6

    "Set me as a seal upon thy heart; as a seal upon thy arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the sheol: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame."

    Isa. 5:14

    "Therefore sheol hath enlarged herself. and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

    Isa. 14:9

    "Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up all her thrones, all the kings of the earth.

    Isa. 14:11

    "Thy pomp is brought down to sheol, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."

    Isa. 14:15

    "Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit."

    Isa. 28:15

    "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with sheol are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through it, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves."

    Isa. 28:18

    "And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with sheol shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

    Isa. 38:10

    "I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of sheol: for I am deprived of the residue of my years."

    Isa. 38:18

    "For sheol cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

    Isa. 57:9

    "And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself unto sheol."

    Ezekiel 31:15

    "Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to sheol I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed....."

    Ezek. 31:16

    "I made the nations shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to sheol with him that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and the best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth."

    Ezek. 31:17

    "They also went down into sheol with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen."

    Ezek. 32:21

    "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of sheol with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain with the sword."

    Ezek. 32:27

    "And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to sheol with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living."

    Hosea 13:14

    "I will ransom them from the power of sheol; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O sheol, I will be thy destruction; repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."

    Amos 9:2

    "Though they dig into sheol, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down."

    Habakkuk 2:5

    "Yea also, because he transgresseth wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as sheol, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth all nations, and heapeth unto him all people."

    Jonah 2:2

    "And said, I cried by reason of my affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of sheol cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Have you ever meditated even for ten minutes on the absurdity of somebody posting endless words asserting the man-made doctrine of their false relgion and NEVER posting one single scripture to back it up.
     
  13. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Oh no Franklin that is a cop out, you posted something now I would like to see you back it up. When you address the false information you posted about Luke 23:43 and then we will proceed from there. And OBTW I have already posted more than enough scriptural support for my posotion, which you have ignored just as you are trying to ignore my argument about Luke.
     
  14. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    I'm not sure if Franklin may have mistyped in his response to Luke 23:43, but the comma was not the only thing that was changed:
    Jesus was not telling the thief that he would be in Paradise with Jesus.

    Luke 23:43, "...Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."

    Or:

    "...Verily I say unto thee To day , shalt thou be with me in paradise."

    The comma placement reall doesn't make much difference. Jesus was responding to the thief's request that Jesus remember the thief when Jesus comes into his kingdom. He did that by asking the thief if he would be in Paradise with Jesus, and the only way for that to happen would be for the thief to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

    When quoting this verse most people swap the "shalt thou" into "thou shalt" which totally changes the meaning.

    OldShepherd,

    You had pasted in your post a quote of the verse from The Greek New Testament. But could you also past what the english translation is of these words? (Since not everyone can read Greek) That would help everyone to see which way the "shalt thou" was in that translation.

    Luke 23:43 kai eipen autw o ihsouV amhn legw soi, shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw

    43 kai eipen auto o ihsouv amhn lego soi, semeron (today) met emou ese en to paradeiso


    (Sorry that the first portion was not the lovely Greek script that you had in your post.)
     
  15. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others

    And you of course can prove this can't you? But no I read further in your repsonse and you ask me to, "past [sic] what the english translation is of these words? (Since not everyone can read Greek)" Excuse me? You are going to tell me I am wrong about what the Greek says and you can't even read the Greek?
    The comma placement is relevant because it is not a question. There is NO question mark in this verse! In Biblical Greek the punctuation indicating a question mark was, what we call, a semi-colon, ;. Which does NOT occur in this sentence but it does occur in verse 43.
    I will do better than that I will show how this is translated by A.T. Robertson who taught post graduate level Greek for 47 years.

    • Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise} (\Sêmeron met’ emou esêi en tôi paradeisôi\). However crude may have been the robber’s Messianic ideas Jesus clears the path for him. He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise which is a Persian word and is used here not for any supposed intermediate state; but the very bliss of heaven itself. This Persian word was used for an enclosed park or pleasure ground (so Xenophon). The word occurs in two other passages in the N.T. (#2Co 12:4; Re 2:7), in both of which the reference is plainly to heaven. Some Jews did use the word for the abode of the pious dead till the resurrection, interpreting "Abraham’s bosom" (#Lu 16:22) in this sense also. But the evidence for such an intermediate state is too weak to warrant belief in it.

      Luke 23:43 kai eipen autw o ihsouV amhn legw soi, shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw

      43 kai eipen auto o ihsouv amhn lego soi, semeron (today) met emou ese en to paradeiso

    And as you requested the Greek/English interlinear

    • 43 kai {AND} eipen {SAID} autw o {TO HIM} ihsouv {JESUS,} amhn {VERILY} legw {I SAY} soi {TO THEE,} shmeron {TODAY} met {WITH} emou {ME} esh {THOU SHALT BE} en tw {IN} paradeisw {PARADISE.}
     
  16. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Oh, give me a break. As I pointed out, not everyone can read Greek, or Latin, or Hebrew, or Arabic, etc. etc. But as you say, the Greek word that "shalt thou be" is translated from is "esomai" {es'-om-ahee} - (from Lexicon results for esomai (Strong's 2071). This word is used as - future first person singular of "to be".

    Please notice that this is a "future first person singular", key word future, not present.

    And how many Jews today answer a question with a question?

    Thank you for the English inserts into the Greek.

    One thing to remember is the verse preceeding this one:

    Luke 23:42 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    All that the thief wanted was for Jesus to remember him when Jesus came to establish his kingdom. Had that happened at that time? Has it happened yet? Then how could the thief be with Jesus in Paradise at that time?
     
  17. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Are you BBB? OS?  have a good one and let him answer the question since you cannot!




     
     
  18. God of Love

    God of Love Regular Member

    328
    +14
    Oneness


    They weren't dead yet, of course it was future.

    Luke 23:42 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    All that the thief wanted was for Jesus to remember him when Jesus came to establish his kingdom. Had that happened at that time? Has it happened yet? Then how could the thief be with Jesus in Paradise at that time?


    [/QUOTE]

    And like so often, Jesus exceeded expectations and told the thief: "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise".

    It's very clear where they were going, and WHEN they would be there.

    Have an NDE, and you will definitely KNOW.  Irrefutably and undeniably.

    God Bless.

    God of Love
     
  19. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    False! Everybody with a Strong's thinks they're a Greek Bible authority. Strong's only gives the root word, it does NOT indicate the mood, case, person, gender, or number of the word used. But you don't know that because you don't know the first thing about Greek. A person cannot speak Russian with only a dictionary and they cannot translate Greek with only a concordance.

    As I posted before this verse translated by a Greek scholar with over 47 years experience. The word in the original Greek is esh/"ese", not the root word "esomai". Robertson translated esh/"ese", as "you shall be" because it is in the "future, indicative" And future is correct, Jesus, while on the cross, could NOT say "Today you are with me in paradise!" Also there is no question mark, i.e. ;, it is a statement NOT a question!

    How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Both questions are irrelevant. The subject here is what did Jesus say, 2000 years ago, NOT what many Jews today say!
    What the thief wanted or asked for is irrelevant. He certainly did NOT want to be on that cross but he was! Your other questions are irrelevant. Nothing prevented Jesus from doing exactly what He said, "Today, you shall be with me in paradise". Can you prove from the scriptures that it did NOT happen then or that it has not happened now?

    • kuwn epistreqaV epi to idion exerama kai uV lousamenh eiV kulisma borborou
     
  20. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian

    Man, get a chill pill. The majority of people have to deal with foreign languages as best they can, and that is by relying on translations. Most have not been educated in foreign languages, especially not the more popular ones. Get off your high horse. It is wonderful that you are versed in Greek, but don't get a "holier than thou" attitude. You can pass on your knowledge without being so hostile.

    You don't need a question mark to have a question.

    So we are in aggreement that this is a "future" tense statement. It wasn't going to happen at that point in time.

    Just trying to lighten the mood a little.

    Of course the thief did not want to be on the cross, but what the thief asked is not irrelevant. He wanted Jesus to remeber him when the kingdom was established. In fact, if you will note, the thief was telling the other thief that Jesus did not deserve to be hanging up there with them, as Jesus had done nothing to warrant that. The thief realized who Jesus was and as a result wants Jesus to take pity on him and to remember that the thief had asked for pity when Jesus establishes his kingdom.

    Can you prove from scriptures that the Second coming of Jesus has already taken place, that the dead in Christ have been resurrected, that the Judgement has happened, or that New Jerusalem has come down out of Heaven?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...