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Featured Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jair Crawford, Mar 20, 2019.

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  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    It's the formulaic aspect that I object to.
    You seem to want to overcomplicate it.
    It shouldn't be like playing a game of Twister that requires the convert to conform to all the contortions you are requiring.
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Not originally.
    You simplified things after I objected.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    That's all I am saying.
    "No one needs to have a conscious understanding of them." (to be saved)
    The lost person does not need to have the "correct" doctrinal positions to become saved.
     
  4. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Member

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    What I meant is that since 1John is the "test" that God gave us to know if we actually are truly saved someone who thinks he or she is saved might fail the test because they were not actually saved in the first place.

    I'm absolutely a OSAS believer. But I also believe there are lots of folks walking around who think they are saved, but they are not, and they are the ones Jesus will say He never knew them.

    So, what I'm saying is that someone who believes a false, unbiblical doctrine, and who has an ugly, nasty, bullying spirit to those who rightly divide God's word are not exhibiting the fruits associated with a saved person. But, in the end, God only knows.

    I will reiterate that I've come across only a couple of members like that on this forum, but at the other Christian forum I mentioned the eschatology subforum has something like a pack of jackals that gang up and swoop down on anyone with the temerity to espouse the biblical truth of their false doctrine. I can honestly say they are not doing God's work.
     
  5. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever read what I'd written. Yes, Jesus soul went to Hades, but that actually happened before He died. You seem to have missed the details I laid forth; why and how actually comparing Scripture with Scripture.

    Your argument about the word Trinity doesn't hold up to scrutiny either because terms like "Godhead", "Us make man in our image" are in the Scripture. There's passages in the Old Testament about Yahweh pointing out Yahweh to Moses. There are 3 people involved in the conversation. God speaking to Moses, is point Moses to Yahweh. (A voice from heaven pointing Moses to a theophoric figure is most likely what is happening.)

    Now go read Luke 16 a little more closely! It is not Abraham talking to the rich man from paradise. It's the rich man talking to Lazarus who's in "Abraham's bosom".

    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    No where does it say "Abraham's bosom" is "Paradise". Nor does it say this is the "top part of Sheol". That is a theory someone came up with; seeing how those who enter heaven did not do so until Jesus died. Also, Jesus "His soul was not left in hell" and "preaching to the spirits in prison".

    I'm not saying the theory is a bad one; because it does fit.

    BUT ABRAHAM'S BOSEM IS NOT PARADISE!

    You have that wrong - look at your Bible carefully!
     
  6. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Well-Known Member

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    Paradise is used 3 places in the Bible and it means "garden" or "park". We are told in Scripture that "paradise" is in the 3rd heaven and the tree of life is there.

    3rd heaven - 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
    tree of life - Revelation 2:7
     
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  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    What anyone needs to be saved is to believe what God requires. That's found in the doctrine of salvation.
     
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Salvation isn't complicated, which is the subject that I'm addressing.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Are you just trying to be dense, or what?

    The Bible clearly speaks of how to be saved. And directly links salvation to faith.

    Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

    So, if the red words don't indicate "saving faith", just what do they indicate?

    Well, if one wants to get saved, they need to be "saved through faith".

    So, please explain what "saved through faith" means, if not "saving faith".

    For example:

    Do you have saving faith in Christ, or do you just believe that the person of a Jew named Jesus lived in Palestine in the early 1st Century?

    Or, do you believe in Santa Claus for the gift of eternal life?

    Or, do you believe that your own works/deeds/efforts will result in getting into heaven?
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Anyone who denies the reality of "saving faith" does not understand how to be saved.

    Eph 2:8 refutes your view.
     
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Your objection is your freedom. But any kind of faith must have an object and a goal.

    Anyone who denies these facts is irrational.

    The Bible frequently speaks of "believe IN Christ" or "faith in Christ". Did you notice the word "in"? That demands an object.

    And if you don't understand that faith requires a goal or purpose for faith, then I guess there's no use in further discussion.

    If the 2 aspects of faith are so difficult for you to grasp, I'm sorry for you.

    So, please explain to me how ANY kind of faith doesn't need an object nor a goal or purpose. I'd love to see how such a 'faith' works.

    Once again, here's what's required for one to be saved through faith (saving faith):

    The object of saving faith:
    Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

    The goal of saving faith:
    1 Pet 1:9 - for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    So, how are these 2 aspects of saving faith a "contortion"?

    How about this; explain how one receives salvation. That should clear up the whole discussion.
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Glad to be of help.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Then please provide clear evidence of this, because I've never read that He went to Hades before He died. I have read that He went to Hades after He died.

    If you think I was trying to discount the Trinity, then you obviously have a problem with grasping any of my posts.

    Do you believe that the souls of believers in the OT went to Paradise or somewhere else?

    If Paradise, then we KNOW that Abraham, who was a believer, was IN Paradise, which is also called "Abraham's bosom".

    Here's an explanation from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

    ABRAHAM'S BOSOM

    Figurative. The expression occurs in Luke 16:22-23, in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, to denote the place of repose to which Lazarus was carried after his death. The figure is suggested by the practice of the guest at a feast reclining on the breast of his neighbor. Thus, John leaned on the breast of Jesus at supper (John 21:20). The rabbis divided the state after death (Sheol) into a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked (see ESCHATOLOGY OF OT; SHEOL ); but it is doubtful whether the figure of Jesus quite corresponds with this idea. "Abraham's bosom" is not spoken of as in "Hades," but rather as distinguished from it (Luke 16:23) - a place of blessedness by itself. There Abraham receives, as at a feast, the truly faithful, and admits them to closest intimacy. It may be regarded as equivalent to the "Paradise" of Luke 23:43. See HADES ; PARADISE .
    (from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

    You may take it or leave it.

    And I never said either of these things.

    Why do you add irrelevant things to the discussion that I never mentioned?

    You've proven nothing.

    We know that Paradise is where OT believers went. And so Abraham was IN Paradise in Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus.

    This isn't even debatable.
     
  14. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    No. Parable is the use of simple physical existence to illustrate a less obvious point. It's a physical location in ancient Jewish concepts.
     
  15. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Notice how I did not offer any commentary to the verse, and yet you asked a question based on a negative assumption (that was outside of the context)?

    Anyways, what is the "doctrine" according to the context?

    4 "I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
    5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
    6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
    (2 John 1:4-11).​

    In other words, 2 John 1:5 says:

    [​IMG]

    And 2 John 1:6 says:

    [​IMG]


    Also, those who do not confess that Jesus is come in the flesh is also a part of the context, as well. This is saying that the Word (GOD) was made flesh. Meaning: We need to do these three things below.

    1. Love one another (2 John 1:5).
    2. Walk after his commandments (Which is love) (2 John 1:6).
    3. Confess that Jesus is COME into the flesh (2 John 1:7 cf. 1 John 4:3).​

    This is the doctrine. If a person is not abiding in this particular doctrine, or teaching as mentioned by John in 2 John 1:9 (which includes the context I mentioned), then they are not of God.

    This is pretty heavy stuff.

    Most today that I am aware of do not teach this.
    Most teach that all you need is a belief alone on Jesus and that you can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is a breaking of God's commandments). Which means we do not have to love others and we can still be saved. But this is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus Himself said that we have to love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28). Yes, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith (Which is by believing in Jesus), but we are also saved by being faithful to the Lord, too. If not, then we are our own servants and masters and not the Lord's.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I mentioned:
    "ABRAHAM'S BOSOM"
    No. The account of Lazarus and the rich man was no parable. Jesus named names. No names are found in any parable.

    Jesus recounted an actual conversation between Abraham and the rich man.
     
  17. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I assume that you believed as best you could when you believed did you not? Were you aware of all the soteriological implications and details when you believed? I certainly wasn't. Did you not learn more as you studied & understood Scripture? The thief obviously did not have the luxury of time to do that. As I wrote earlier, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. You can make a big deal out of it if you wish but I have no interest in quibbling about such details.
     
  18. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Well-Known Member

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    You are the one having the problem grasping other people's posts because you apparently do not read what people write. You put your own interpretive spin on what is said.

    This is what I wrote: Explain to me how you misinterpreted this as me thinking that you were discounting the Trinity?

    YOU NEED TO READ MORE CAREFULLY!

    Jesus went to Hades BEFORE He actually died!

    READ CAREFULLY (several times if necessary) BEFORE YOU RESPOND - OR YOU WILL MISS IT AGAIN! (There is a lot of Scripture in here.)

    This is a time table of the last week of Jesus's life:

    Now I'm giving you fair warning here - it's not likely you have ever heard this explanation any place else; but it has totally come out of comparing Bible verses to each other.

    Genesis 2:7
    Exodus 12
    Pslam 104:29
    Jeremiah 25:15-16
    Jeremiah 30
    Daniel 9:27

    Jonah 2:2
    Matthew 24:6-13
    Matthew 24:22&29, Mark 13:20&24
    Luke 13:32
    Luke 22:43
    Luke 23:45
    John 12:1-3
    John 12:29&31
    John 18:1&6
    Revelation 20:1-3

    John 12:1-3 - Mary (Lazarus's sister) anoints Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". Jesus says to Judas: "Leave her alone, against the day of my burial she has kept this." That "time clue" is important; keep it in the back of your head!

    Daniel 9:27 "confirm the covenant for a week". From the time Mary anoints Jesus's feet to the day of the crucifixion is "one week". This happens Thursday after sundown (which would have commenced Friday. This is the start of "the great tribulation".

    Friday - I don't think the Scriptures tell us specifically what Jesus did Friday day. (Probably preached in the temple.)

    Saturday - Sabbath.

    Sunday - Triumphant entry into Jerusalem.

    Monday - Preached in the temple. Jesus tells a pharisee who comes to Him to warn Him that Herod wants to kill Him. Jesus says "Tell that fox: Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." The "third day" is the commencement of Wednesday.

    The word "perfected" here is kind of a weird word. It literally means "to come to the fullness of extension" and is usually used in context of conceiving children. We'd use the world "climax". So Jesus "comes to His climax" which in context of this verse he's referring to casting out devils, doing cures and preaching.

    Again though, go back to
    Daniel 9:27. "the middle of the week" is "Messiah cut off".

    Tuesday - Preaches in the temple. Leaves the temple Tuesday before sundown. Jesus and disciples are having a conversation about the temple being destroyed.

    Thunder is heard (John 12:29). Jesus explains to them what that thunder is. (John 12:31) Satan has been cast out of heaven. (Revelation 20:1-3)

    From here Jesus goes to Bethany to dinner at the house of Simon the leper. (Since we are after sundown - we are now into Wednesday) While He's eating an anonymous woman pours a jar of oil over His head. Again He tells the disciples: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 24:6-13)

    This is the commencement of the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". We know this because exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later - Jesus is dead!

    This is also the commencement of the "middle of the weeK" when the Messiah is cut off.

    Wednesday - That night Jesus washes the disciples feet and spends much of the rest of the night explaining to them what will happen to Him.

    Thursday - They prepare for the passover Thursday morning. Eat it in the upper room Thursday night. They leave the building and go to the "garden" near a brook Cedron; (John 18:1) which is in the Mt. of Olives but is not "Gethsemane".

    This is the first attempt to arrest Jesus. A small band come and ask for Jesus. He says. "I am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6) This is one of 4 places in the Scripture that speak of people "falling backwards" and in all those places, they are under the condemnation of God. This should tell you something about the modern "pentecostal" practice of "slain in the spirit". All the people in Scripture who "fell before God" went face down, not backwards. I digress here - but anyways.

    They go from this garden to gethsemane. A "gethsemane" is not a garden. There were multiple "gethsemane(s)" in the Mt. of Olives. a gethsemane is where an olive press is. They were located inside caves and this is where they pressed the olives for the oil that burned the lamps in the temple. During feasts when lots of people were in Jerusalem, people would stay in these caves as shelter.

    Passover: (Here is where Jesus's soul goes to Sheol.)

    So Jesus is in this cave and an angel comes to Him. (Luke 22:43) What angel is this? The passage in English says "....angel from heaven; strengthening him..." but the Greek actually means "display of force against". So, go back to Exodus 12. What angel passes through the land at midnight on the passover to kill the first born? (The angel of death.) So who is this angel who comes to Jesus? (It's the angel of death.) What does the angel of death do to Jesus.

    Scripture explains to us that when organisms die, the "breath of life" returns to God. (Psalm 104:29) The breath of life is what makes men "living souls". (Genesis 2:7)

    So the angel of death removes the breath of life from Jesus which confines His soul to Sheol. Jesus does not die though; why not? Because He has a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature.

    This is the "shortening" of "the tribulation" because if "the tribulation is not shortened; no flesh would be saved"! (Matthew 24:22) When is "flesh saved". That has to do with the atonement!

    What is "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". That is speaking of the wrath of God. "Out of the belly of hell you heard my cry." (Jonah 2:2)

    Look at Jesus's behavior from the point He leaves the temple to the night of passover. He's extremely distressed. Why? Jeremiah 30 answers that question. This passage also talks about "Jacob's trouble" which is "the great tribulation". What is "Jacob" afraid of? (vs 10) He's afraid of failing God. He's afraid of losing what he came to accomplish. "Jacob" is not eternally lost though on account of Jacob's own righteousness. God being just though, can not rightfully condemn someone who is not a sinner. This is why Jesus's own personal integrity is so important to the atonement.

    Jeremiah 25 talks about "the cup of God's wrath" causes the nations to "go mad". "Jacob" is probably also afraid of going insane and that is what will happen if God does not intervene. And this is why the angel of death confines Jesus's soul to hades. Jesus is determined to compete this course of action; but He can't do so if He's an emotional mess.

    Now would the Romans have crucified someone they deemed to be insane? Probably not.

    Note Jesus's interactions with people from the point this angel leaves until Jesus dies. He remains morally and cognitively intact; but absolutely emotionless.

    By the point of "Why have you forsaken me". "I thirst" and "It is finished" Jesus becomes more and more difficult to understand. Those who wrote the Scripture give us by interoperation from the Holy Spirit what Jesus said; but those who were present could not understand Him. The Greek denotes that His "cries" sound like the screeching of a crow. Obviously as His body breaks down; He's no longer able to produce intelligible speech.

    Last thing says He bows His head and "gives up" or "sends off" His spirit. This is his human spirit, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, just as the Father had already forsaken Him. Jesus dies because the Divine nature is rent from the human nature. This is what actually kills him.

    His soul is released from Sheol (as well as the souls of all those He's atoned for who died on the OT side of the cross). Soul and spirt ascend to heaven to stand before the Father as "the lamb that was slain". We see this in Revelation 5. Note who's there with Him. "those who've come out of great tribulation". They are "souls" (not bodies) who "live and reign with Him 1000 years". (Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4)

    Jesus's body rests on the Sabbath.

    Rises from the dead on Sunday before dawn. Ephesians 1:18-22 tell us that Christ begins to "reign" when He rises from the dead.

    Now when does Jesus ascend back to the Father? (I.E. in bodily form as a whole person) That happens 40 days later.
     
  19. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Well-Known Member

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    No where does the Scripture say "paradise" is called "Abraham's bosom".

    I don't care what the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says. What do the Scriptures say.

    The only thing we know about OT believers and "paradise"; is that they had access to paradise once Jesus died. This is why Jesus says to the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise."

    Again, GO BACK AND READ LUKE 17 CAREFULLY! Your not even quoting it right. The passage says nothing about where Abraham is.

    Not only are you not reading carefully what people on this forum are writing; you're not even correctly quoting Scripture!

    AGAIN; READ WHAT I'D ACTUALLY WRITTEN - PLEASE!
    Read carefully everything in context to understand why I quoted:
    "His soul was not left in hell"
    "preaching to the spirits in prison"

    Here is the theory - Sheol / Hades has 2 parts. The "top part" is called "Abraham's bosom" the bottom part is called "hell". The theory is that once Jesus died, those in "Abraham's bosom" were released from there (i.e. "top part of hades") and went into "paradise".

    What does the Scripture tell us about paradise?

    The word is used 3 places in the New Testament. One is the passage where Jesus tells the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise."

    2 corinthians 12:2-4 tell us paradise is in the third heaven.
    Revelation 2:7 tells us the tree of life is in paradise.

    If "Abraham's bosom" is part of "Sheol". SHEOL IS NOT IN THE 3RD HEAVEN!

    "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" are 2 different things.

    Again - you are misquoting Scripture!
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Your assumption is incorrect. When faced with a statement, one either believes the statement or doesn't believe the statement. In the case of not comprehending the statement, then they can't believe what they don't comprehend.

    Comprendo?

    You make believing into some kind of effort, which it's not.

    I never said "all the implication" were part of saving faith, now, did I.

    Do you believe that a person is saved immediately, or over a period of time?

    He didn't need more time. He had saving faith. As Jesus clearly noted.

    Thanks for your opinion.

    Salvation is a big deal in my opinion. And the opinion of the Bible. EVERY human being needs to be saved.

    But if that ain't no big deal to you. so noted.
     
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