Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

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FreeGrace2

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I think this information should be used by the one leading someone to Christ. A lost individual wanting to deal with the conviction they feel needs to be led to Christ. They know nothing of doctrine typically.
All they need to know is that they are lost and going to the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ died for their sins and gives them eternal life, so that they will NOT perish in the lake of fire.

That's the doctrine that they need to know.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"I claim the same salvation as found in the Bible. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is Messiah, and who died on the cross for all of my sins, and gives me eternal life for believing in Him for it.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?"
A lost person cannot articulate this to meet your approval.
Let's just leave out my "approval" in this. This is about God's plan, not mine.

And I never said anything about "articulating" anything. I have been clear and focused on the FACT that one must believe in Christ for eternal life.

You have completely lost touch with the state of the lost.
You're going to need to expand on this silly statement.

They will get their doctrine ironed out later.
If by "doctrine" you refer to the rest of the Bible, then, sure.

Initially they need to be led by the hand.
To the Savior. To the doctrine of salvation, which means how to be saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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A lost person does not fully grasp any of this.
These verses are clear enough. Those who haven't believed in Christ WILL BE condemned. Why can't a lost person understand that they will be condemned if they don't believe in Christ, who gives eternal life to those who believe in Him?
 
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Saint Steven

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My comment was based on what YOU SAID.

If there is no such thing as saving faith, then there is no salvation in that viewpoint.

Simple as that.
I didn't say there is no such thing as saving grace.
I was objecting to your definition of it.
 
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Saint Steven

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He knew who Jesus was; the Messiah, who was returning to His kingdom. He had saving faith.
Well, that's a very different definition than what you were describing earlier.
And more to my liking.
 
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Saint Steven

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I laid out what saving faith is and means. You tell me.

btw, salvation cannot be revoked.

Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Eternal life is a gift of God.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But you said something to the effect that if I didn't agree with you I wasn't saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I didn't say there is no such thing as saving grace.
This is exactly what you posted in #107:
"I'm not sure there is any such thing as "saving faith"."

So, an explanation is in order here.

I was objecting to your definition of it.
That's not what you posted.
 
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Saint Steven

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FreeGrace2 said:
When "faith" is used as a noun, it refers to the "body of information" as found in the Bible.

No. That would be ridiculous. I hold every lost person responsible for understanding that God has revealed Himself in creation (Rom 1:19,20) and has no excuse for not being thankful to Him. And by such realization, I hold them responsible for seeking Him, per Acts 17:27.

I also hold them responsible for accepting the gospel, as Titus 2:11 says.
How would they know that in advance of being saved?
 
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Saint Steven

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All they need to know is that they are lost and going to the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ died for their sins and gives them eternal life, so that they will NOT perish in the lake of fire.

That's the doctrine that they need to know.
What became of your 2 aspects?
 
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FreeGrace2

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2 aspects is a formula.
That's only your definition of 'formula'.

OK, so you disagree that saving faith is a formula (your definition, not mine). But I'll go with your definition.

If saving faith doesn't include the 2 aspects that I gave, which of the 2 don't you agree with?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
" I hold every lost person responsible for understanding that God has revealed Himself in creation (Rom 1:19,20) and has no excuse for not being thankful to Him. And by such realization, I hold them responsible for seeking Him, per Acts 17:27.

I also hold them responsible for accepting the gospel, as Titus 2:11 says."
How would they know that in advance of being saved?
I think a review of the verses I shared is in order here. Since God HAS revealed Himself to everyone, no one has any excuse for not recognizing His existence.

So, "in advance" of being saved, they have ALREADY BEEN SHOWN God's existence in creation. So, to answer your question, God already revealed His existence to them, IN ADVANCE of their believing in Christ.

And Heb 11:6 explains who comes to God for salvation:

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
 
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fhansen

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I wonder this, not to open up any excuses to ignore sound doctrine, by any means, but because so many different doctrines seem to be given this treatment among different denominations.

Yet I keep going back to the thief on the cross. He didn’t have time to learn any of what we might call essential doctrines yet he got saved. He didn’t have any time to understand TULIP, get his end time theology in order, argue about spiritual gifts, worry about Pauline versus Jamesian view on faith and works; he simply knew Christ in his very spirit being and he was saved right there.

Any thoughts?
Correct doctrine essentially tells us truths about the nature and will of God. This is what Jesus came to reveal. We search for these truths in Scripture. People record them in creeds, confessions, catechisms, etc. The thief might've appreciated the same had he been given more opportunity with a longer life. As it is he did the best he could with what he was given: a compromised, hopeless situation, direct knowledge of Jesus-and grace.

Anyway, doctrine simply means teaching; it seeks to give us what we need: the correct truths to believe in.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"All they need to know is that they are lost and going to the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ died for their sins and gives them eternal life, so that they will NOT perish in the lake of fire.

That's the doctrine that they need to know."
What became of your 2 aspects?
I didn't expect this to be so hard to understand.

The 2 aspects are NECESSARY for faith in anything, whether a person or object.

No one needs to have a conscious understanding of them. But they need to be there.

Do you believe in the statement, "just have faith in faith", as a legitimate statement?

I don't. There is no such thing as faith in faith. That elevates the act of trust apart from any object as valuable. So, how would it be valuable if there is no object?

So, please explain how a person can be saved if they have neither the right object of faith or the right goal or purpose of faith.

If a person turns on his TV and hears a prosperity preacher say "believe in Christ and you'll have a better ________ . You can fill in the blank; car, job, house, spouse, etc.

Would this be saving faith, if a person believes that Jesus will give them whatever they put in the blank?
 
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Saint Steven

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To the Savior. To the doctrine of salvation, which means how to be saved.
Right. They don't have it, nor should we expect them to.
That's my main point here. Doctrine is not needed (by the lost) to be saved.
 
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Saint Steven

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These verses are clear enough. Those who haven't believed in Christ WILL BE condemned. Why can't a lost person understand that they will be condemned if they don't believe in Christ, who gives eternal life to those who believe in Him?
What I was responding to in your post was much more complicated than that.
 
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Saint Steven

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This is exactly what you posted in #107:
"I'm not sure there is any such thing as "saving faith"."

So, an explanation is in order here.


That's not what you posted.
Is it a biblical term, or did you make it up?
I said "I'm not sure there is any such thing..."
 
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