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Featured Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jair Crawford, Mar 20, 2019.

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  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Are you kidding me? I don't need an extremely lengthy post to "prove" what you think Jesus did.

    If the Bible says He went to Hades before He died, then there should be a single verse or passage that says so.

    What you've done is go "all over the map" in your way too long post.

    apparently, you don't have any proof. If you did, you would have just presented the relevant single verse or single passage that says so.
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Wow. You accuse me of not reading your posts and here you go again, totally misreading mine.

    When Abraham died, where did his soul go? To paradise. When Lazarus died, where did his soul go? To paradise. And, Jesus described that as "Abraham's bosom".

    And I gave the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia's statement on "Abraham's bosom", which you can take or leave.

    Yeah, what do they know? They're just scholars.

    Well, speak for yourself. Those with a more robust knowledge of Scripture all know that all the believers who died in OT times went to paradise.

    But since you seem to have a different opinion, please share where their souls did go.

    Yeah, that was Hades. Where Abraham was. And the rich man.

    I can only hope you had a typo about the chapter in Luke. The correct chapter is 16.

    And while the passage doesn't label where Abraham was, why don't you educate all of us about where that was, if not paradise.

    [/QUOTE]Not only are you not reading carefully what people on this forum are writing; you're not even correctly quoting Scripture![/quote]
    You mean like citing Luke 17 when ch 16 is where Lazarus is? :bow:

    Do you not grasp the meaning of "not left in hell" (Hades)?

    It's a bad theory, for sure. I do agree that Hades has compartments, but 3, not 2. The 3rd compartment, called Tartarus, is where fallen angels are chained in darkness.
     
  3. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    It's a parable, because it's not to illustrate what Abraham's Bosom is, it is the use of it to explain something else! It is the use of simple terms such as Abraham's Bosom and Hades, both are physical in concepts of ancient Jews (from the fundamental concepts of Pharisees), to illustrate something else!
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  4. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    How do you think they knew He was the Messiah to begin with. There wasn't just one verse of "prophecy" that said "LOOOK HERE"!

    :scratch::swoon:

    The whole flipping Old Testament is full of explanations of how Jesus is the Messiah. How does one establish doctrine? By comparing Scripture with Scripture "line upon line, precept upon precept". Isaiah 28:9-13

    The Bereans searched the Scriptures. Be a Berean.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  5. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Show me Scripture verse that says specifically "Abraham went to paradise upon death!"

    Well 12 apostles and Jesus Christ never went to seminary either.
    Still - show me Scripture verses!

    Give me verses! I'm making an assumption that because you can not find verses that say specifically "Abraham's bosom" is the same place as "paradise"; you don't have any Scriptural evidence for your belief.

    Show me where Hades is in "the third haven"!

    You're correct - you caught that. I did give you the wrong chapter! Now have you actually read in Chapter 16 what was said? Tell me the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Are you going to quote it to me correctly now?

    Apparently you don't think I do - so please explain it to me.

    LOL - This the theory you're espousing (and don't you even see that)? LOL. You say "Abraham's bosom" is part of Hades. Do you not? Am I misunderstanding you?
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Of course it wasn't to "illustrate what Abraham's Bosom is". I never said it was.

    But it isn't a parable. Jesus never named actual persons in any of His parables. But in the account of Lazarus, he mentioned 2 actual people by name.

    So, what "else" was Jesus explaining?
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I asked for a single verse or passage that supports your claim, and you failed to do so.

    Do you have any verses that actually tell us that He "went to Hades before He died"?

    That's exactly what I do, and have been doing for the past several decades.

    That's also why I have asked for a specific verse or passage that actually says what you are claiming.

    And, unlike the Berean's, you can't produce any.

    Be a Berean. Prove your claim.
     
  8. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    "It is finished." John 19:30. There's the verse that tells you Jesus went to Hades before He died. He wouldn't declare "it is finished" if it wasn't finished.

    OK, I showed you a verse, now show me a verse that says He went to hades after He died.

    If those who will be cast into the lake of fire to atone for their own sin, do so as whole individuals, than how would Jesus not atone for the sin of believers as a whole individual?

    OK - I produced one verse! Do you believe me now? LOL

    P.S. - i'm still waiting on a verse that proves Hades is in the 3rd heaven.
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    You love to complicate matters. Why?
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    It is when you try to explain it. Zzzzzzzz….
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Is there any other kind of faith?
    What differentiates one kind from another? That's what I don't get.
    You say "saving faith", as opposed to what?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    I'm not denying anything.
    Does that give you the right to question my salvation?
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    I recommend you switch to decaf.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    The topic is whether a person needs doctrine to be saved.
    You have gone off in a different direction.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    You are the only person I know who holds that view.
    Maybe you should start your own religion?
     
  16. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    The context of this passage is assuming someone has been in the faith a while and has been taught doctrine. If they don't continue in the fundamentals of faith; that is evidence that they never had it to begin with.

    Saint Steven - your respondent here is speaking of those who have not learned anything yet.

    We don't have to come to God understanding a lot. A legitimate spiritual awakening often takes place outside of our knowledge as well as outside of our awareness. This is what seems to me Steven is referring to.

    "God I need You. My life is a mess. Nothing else has worked....."

    Faith can certainly start on grounds that are that simple. The details get filled in later.
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Here you go.

    Ephesians 4:8-10
    This is why it says:
    “When he ascended on high,
    he took many captives
    and gave gifts to his people.”
    9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
    10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
     
  18. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    It is one of the definitions of the word Paradise, it is what the Jews of time thought was the abode of the righteous souls in Sheol. This is easily found fact that I never added to scripture(and to the words definition), so yes I do indeed follow the process of comparing scripture with scripture and letting the word of God interpret the word of God.
     
  19. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Yes I did, I read everything you wrote. And then I responded.
     
  20. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe Jesus went to Hades after He died and before resurrection....

    What I'd like to ask you is WHY He went to Hades?
     
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