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Featured Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jair Crawford, Mar 20, 2019.

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  1. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    All that was needed to be done to Christ while he was living was finished, that is why he said it is finished. After his death he still had things to do: Fulfill the remainder of the three days and three nights in the hands of sinners and the Sanhedrin court(heart of the earth), Preach to those in Prison, Ascend spiritually and sprinkle his blood on the Altar in heaven that sits before the Throne of YHWH in the Second Apartment. So we know that he was not referring to everything being finished yet, just the things that were required of him while he was living(and just the things that were needful to be done to him being finished).


    Paradise is in Sheol the third definition of Paradise is the Abode of Pious souls in Sheol.
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    1 Peter 3:18-22
    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
     
  3. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately you make a big deal of things but quite ironically are still unlearned regarding the fundamentals of salvation. The thief believed what he comprehended at the time of his death so he was saved. He believed and was obedient unto death. But contrary to your claim, it does take effort to believe because the scriptures never limit belief to cognitive belief only. Even the demons believe but are not saved. The scriptures teach belief as demonstrated by obedience. To believe is to obey God. Two sides of the same coin. One cannot say that he/she truly believes unto salvation and yet remains disobedient demonstrating no repentance in their lives. Thus belief requires effort because one must obey God. Comprende?
     
  4. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    The word "paradise" is used in 3 places.

    Luke 23:43 "Today you will be with me in paradise."

    2 Corinthians 12:2-4 In this passage Paul is recounting meeting someone who'd been to "paradise". In this passage it tells us specifically that "paradise" is in "the third heaven".

    SHOW ME ANY PASSAGE THAT STATES HADES IS IN THE 3RD HEAVEN!

    Revelation 2:7
    This passage states that the tree of life is in paradise.

    "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" are not the same place. I don't care what the Jews thought. The Scriptures disagree with them!

    So, if you are still going to argue that "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" are the same place; you are not letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

     
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  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    It sounds like you are disagreeing with the context. John said “this doctrine” and he gave details in the chapter.
     
  6. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Yet again brother you ignore 1 of the definitions of the word Paradise.
    1. Luke 23:43 "Today you will be with me in paradise." Example of Abode o righteous souls in the grave/sheol.

    2. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 is speaking of a place in the third part of Heaven.
    Revelation 2:7 is speaking of a place in the Third part of Heaven.

    3. Another meaning for the word Paradise is Park as it comes from the word Pardec from Hebrew Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; Song of Solomon 4:13


    There is not simply one definition for the word Paradise there are three.


    Now moving on to the next part of your response.

    It is not written anywhere in the bible that hades is in heaven, I can't say where you came up with idea but scripture shows us that the grave(hades/sheol) is separate from the third part of heaven.

    As to Abraham's bosom being the same as sheol(and more importantly the part of sheol called Paradise) I would be in agreement. The story of the rich man and Lazarus was just a parable and not a literal accounting of events.

    The fact remains. Christ first went down into the lower parts of the earth to preach to the souls in prison as a quickening spirit(being absent from the flesh).
    9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


    This is the scripture you keep saying does not exists comparing this scripture(which speaks of Christ death and what he did after crucifixion) with the Scripture that says he will be in paradise that day(day he died) we can clearly see it is speaking about sheol.
     
  7. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    "It is finished." Finished comes from a root that means "set out to accomplish" and "end". Meaning; coming to the end of what was set out to be accomplished.

    Now if Jesus "still had things to do" than He would not have accomplished all that He'd set out to accomplish. So at that point he would not have said that.

    3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth has nothing to do with "in the hands of sinners". The people who were playing a role in the crucifixion were just that - playing a role.

    What did Jesus came to accomplish? If He was to atone for sins of sinners; who've they sinned against? Who is the ONE who will condemn sinners? (Not other sinners.) - GOD!

    The Sanhedrin court had nothing to do with "the heart of the earth". The Sanhedrin court was already condemned by God on account of their rejection of the Messiah. They weren't even in the court of the Sanhedrin. They had Jesus tied up in someone's basement for crying out loud!

    If they were to hold a proper trial as "the Sanhedrin"; they would have held it in the middle of the day, in the public eye, right in the Sanhedrin court which was next to the temple. Where God could see what they were doing! They didn't do that though. They were all hiding in the middle of the night, in the high priest's basement!

    And we know that they knew that what they were doing was wrong because they didn't have the power to execute Jesus. This is why they brought Him to Pilate. They knew that if they'd killed Him that night - Pilate was going to kill them! Pilate had the authority from Rome to do that.

    There's a rather obscure passage in Luke 13 that talks about Pilate's soldiers going into the temple and killing a bunch of people. The "hint" as to what was really going on; is that the passage says "mixed their blood with their own sacrifice". Pilate sent the soldiers in after these people most likely because they'd murdered someone and were going to use this blood as some sort of ritual. That is most likely the context.

    We know this happened with the Jews in ancient history because of the record of the Maccabean revolt. The Greeks record this revolt as happening because the Greek king at the time had forbid them from performing certain "religious rituals". And the reason he forbid them is in the Greek historical record.

    They'd made a pact among themselves to "hate the Greeks forever". So once a year, they'd abduct some Greek person and kill them. The king found out when he went into the temple and saw some Greek merchant who was being held captive in there. This is the story according to the Greek historical record.

    So this incident with Pilate going into the temple, had happened the previous year. And this is probably the reason Barabbas was in prison awaiting execution because he was there for "sedition and murder".

    So Pilate was being "monitored" by Rome and the Sanhedrin set Pilate up. The "story" was that Pilate already was having problems with sedition and revolts and so if you don't execute Jesus, you will be in trouble with Rome. Pilate saw through this. The Scriptures say, Pilate knew they'd brought Jesus to him on account of their envy.

    So right here, the fact that they don't execute Jesus themselves, tells us that they knew their authority was illegitimate.

    1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This is why verse 29 says "why are they baptized for the dead if the dead don't rise..."

    "If Christ be not raised, you are yet in your sin." This is what 1 Corinthians 15:15-17 is talking about. The last thing Jesus had to do was die. And just before He did that; this is why He says: "It is finished."

    ??? I have no idea where you even got this from. It's certainly not in the Scripture. Sheol is not in the 3rd heaven!
     
  8. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. He accomplished all that was necessary for him to do while living. So all that was needful for him to do in life was finished, he still had yet to Go to heaven and sprinkle his blood on the Altar in heaven for the blood offering for all mankind so we know that until that happened not all that was foretold of him was finished. That is why he said it is finished because everything from that point on would be accomplished will he was in the spirit, all that he needed to do while in the flesh had been accomplished/finished.

    2. Here is a link to a shorter version of the study that shows the true meaning of the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth(there are longer and more detailed ones you could read as well).
    Shepherd's Rod Message
    Shepherd's Rod Message
    STUDY27
    You'll find one of the Chart's here for three days and three nights(I can't find the main one used anywhere but I will keep looking).
    The Shepherd's Rod's Charts - GADSDA



    3. 1 Corinthians 15:26 says we are to baptize for those who have died but did not have a chance to be baptized in life. This is because we all will be raised in the last day at the last trump at Christ's return. Until then none but christ has ascended into heaven being the first of the first fruits of the dead.
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    4. Sheol is not in heaven, sheol is the grave. The abode of the pious souls in the grave is called Paradise.
     
  9. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    If "Abraham's bosom" is the "top portion of hades". Is Hades in the 3rd heaven? No it's not! I have never heard any church throughout Christian history ever conclude Hades is in Heaven. Your conclusion is absolutely ridiculous!

    Now the verses you quote, Ephesians 4:9-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-21(ish). Which you claim support your position actually support mine.

    Ephesians 4:
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    When did this happen? When were those who were "in captivity" (i.e. "Abraham's bosom" / "the top part of Hades" led captive?

    Revelation 5 - This chapter gives us the beginning of this answer. The lamb stands in the throne room of God to open the seals and everything in heaven and earth rejoices.

    Chapter 6 goes on to describe what happens when these seals are open. This covers the time span from Jesus appearing in heaven as "the lamb slain" until the destruction of the cosmos. We see this at the end of chapter 6. "The great day of His wrath has come and who shall be able to stand."

    Revelation 7 - What do we see here? We see a great multitude of people in heaven - (They were not there before!) John asks the angel. Who are they? The angel answers. They have come out of (the) great tribulation.

    So, pull all these Scriptures together. We see these people appear in heaven who were not there before. Obviously they are redeemed. Where had they been before appearing in heaven after the lamb begins to open the seals? If "paradise" is "in the 3rd heaven"; apparently they did not originate "in paradise". They came from some place else. They came from "Abraham's bosom". Where is that. Apparently it is a portion of Hades.

    HERE IS YOUR PROOF RIGHT HERE. "PARADISE" AND "ABRAHAM'S BOSOM" ARE NOT THE SAME PLACE.
    If they were these people would not be "appearing" in heaven. They would have already been there.

    "Paradise" is in "the 3rd heaven".
    "Abraham's bosom" is part of Hades.
    Hades is NOT in the 3rd heaven.

    Jesus tells the thief "TODAY you will be with me IN PARADISE."

    The day of the crucifixion (Friday) is the day Christ lead captivity captive at the point that He died. Why? Because death is the last enemy to be overcome.

    Back to Revelation 7

    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    When was "the great tribulation"?

    Jesus gives us a clue in Matthew 24: He says "unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened".

    When was "flesh saved"? (At the cross.)

    The "great tribulation" was part of the atonement.

    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?

    We know Christ ascended "leading captivity captive" the day of the crucifixion. So by this verse, we know Jesus soul descended into Hades prior to His death!

    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above ALL HEAVENS, that he might fill all things.)

    This verse is talking about Jesus ascending into heaven in bodily form, 40 days post resurrection. Note, it's talking about "ALL HEAVENS" not just the "3rd heaven".

    1 Peter 3:18-19

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    The underlined portion of this verse talks about the death and resurrection. Next verse:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    When did this happen? We know it didn't happen after He rose from the dead Sunday morning! Which if you were to take this passage in order of how it's written, that is the only conclusion you could come to; but these two verses are showing us a relationship in proximity of the events described, not a chronology of them. This is logically easy to deduce, because we know Jesus did not go to Hades AFTER He rose from the dead.

    Yeah - thanks - great verses! You proved my point for me.
     
  10. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Except "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

    Is Jesus still in Hades? LOL.

    If Jesus is in heaven, than so are deceased saints. Revelation 6:9 tells us their souls are under the alter in heaven.
     
  11. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Except Corinthians tells us "paradise" is in the "3rd heaven".
     
  12. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    One of definitions of paradise is the third part of heaven. Another is sheol(or rather the abode of pious souls in sheol), two different defintions of the same word. This is where the whole confusion you have comes from.
     
  13. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Sorry man; they can't be both. That's illogical.
     
  14. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    The context as it relates to when it applies to a person's regeneration. The verse itself is pretty clear that it's speaking of people who've been taught doctrine.
     
  15. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Chris is the only one that is risen. Here is a short study that explains what absent from the body and present with the Lord means using scripture alone to explain it's meaning.
    "As to the changing of the body. We are made like the Lord(spiritual), we are changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. Putting off this corruptible flesh and putting on incorruption. Casting off the former man(carnal,man of flesh) and putting on the quickening spirit the second man. Because flesh and blood can never inherit the kingdom of heaven, and not just the dead are changed but everyone is changed in an instant into the new spiritual form.

    The first adam was a living soul the last adam was a quickening spirit. Flesh and blood can never inherit the kingdom of heaven. We will be as the angels are in heaven. Not of Flesh but spiritual(celestial creatures). You have to remember Christ had to become flesh, he was not always a being of flesh but one of the spirit.


    When Christ died he became a quickening Spirit and ministered to the other spirits that were in Prison.1 Peter 3:18-20
    When Christ was risen he rose spiritually, that is why he told Mary not to touch him. John 20:17
    Then when he had completed his work spiritually he said the apostles could touch him. John 20:26-27
    Flesh and Blood cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven.1 Cor 15:50
    That is Christ became a quickening spirit. 1 Peter 3:18
    Christ's original form was a spirit, that is why he had to become flesh. John 1:1-14, 1 Timothy 3:16
    When Christ appeared unto Paul he appeared in the spirit not in the flesh. Acts 9:3-6, Acts 22:6-10, Acts 26:14-18
    When we are in heaven we will be just as the angels are. Mat 28:28-30, Mark 12:24-25
    When we are resurrected on the day of Judgment we will all be changed. 1 Cor 15:52
    Some ask how the dead are raised and in what body. 1 Cor 15:35
    Paul says they are fools to ask, he says that which we sow in the flesh must be quickened. 1 Cor 15:35
    We are sown in a natural body(corruption). 1 Cor 15:44,43
    And we are raised in a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:44
    That which comes first is the natural body of Flesh. 1 Cor 15:46-48
    That which comes second is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:46,44-45
    We are not raised in corruption. 1 Cor 15:43,50,53-54
    But in incorruption. 1 Cor 15:42-46,52-54
    There are bodies both terrestrial and celestial. 1 Cor 15:40
    We will be raised as celestial beings, quickening spirits. 1 Cor 15:42,44-46


    With the breath of life we become a living soul(Genesis 2:7) clothed in the tabernacle of Flesh(2 Cor 5:1,4). When we die our mortality/earthly tabernacle is put off(2 Cor 5:4) swallowed up in death. So while we are at home in the flesh(alive bodily) we are absent from the Lord(2 Cor 5:5-6) but after death in the flesh we are spiritual beings/living souls without bodies of flesh( 1 Cor 15:44-46) awaiting resurrection and life with Christ(2 Cor 5:6,8,9; 2 Cor 5:10).

    While we are alive we are not present with God(since we are in the flesh) but when we die and become free of the earthly tabernacle, then the day of resurrection is the only thing that awaits us. We will not be with the Lord(In heaven) while in the flesh(1 Cor 15:50; 2 Cor 5:5-6) but in the spirit(1 Cor 15:42-44; 2 Cor 5:6, 8). This is the meaning Paul was speaking to.


    When we die the Lord is given back the breath of life and the earthly tabernacle(our bodies of Flesh) die. We each within ourselves have our own individual spirit(Romans 8:16,23) that is different from the Lord’s breath and the Lord’s spirit.

    Paul doesn't say it is at the time of our death that we come to dwell with Christ but at the resurrection. Paul says that when we die we sleep in the grave awaiting the first or second resurrection. The soul/spirit which is contained within our earthly tabernacle(body of flesh) sleeps when the breath of life is given up as it is no longer contained in a living body of flesh(earthly tabernacle) only when it is awakened by the Lord do we regain our thoughts/memories and our ability to feel.


    There is no time when we cease to exist.


    1. Yes Paul says that he desires to out the tabernacle of Flesh and dwell with the Lord, he knows flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and that when he dies he will be a spirit and will be resurrected in that form. Not in the tabernacle of Flesh. He says as much here and in other chapters/books.


    2. Philippians 1 speaks of Paul's desire to be with Christ after death since he knows that only in the resurrection at Christ’s coming can a person dwell with the Lord.

    1 thess 4:16-17
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Yes Paul speaks of dying and being with Christ but when paired with the rest of his writings we see he means in the Resurrection.

    But looking at it the way you are it contradicts the rest of Paul's writings on the subject of Resurrection and when we come to dwell with Christ, it also contradicts peter, Christ, and the Apocalypse of John. So it is apparent when looking at the full picture that Paul is referring to either the Resurrection for the time he would be with Christ.


    22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
    23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
    24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.


    He desires to depart and die so that he can live again with Christ, when we pair this with what he said here
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    We see that Paul knows/believes that a person does not dwell with the Lord until they are resurrected
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."


    2. Christ was not left in hell/hades/sheol but was resurrected on Sunday that is why we are told his soul was not left in hell and did not see corruption
    24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    this is why it is said that he is first of the first fruits of the dead
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Revelation 6:9 tells us that they will be under the altar in heaven, not that they are currently. And it should be noted that they are still sleeping the sleep of the first death(. This shows us that the first Resurrection of the righteous has not taken place at that time.
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    it is not until the first Resurrection that they are raised from the dead with the rest of the righteous.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    There are only two reserrections spoken of in scripture, only two are spoken of and both will only happen in the end when Christ returns.
     
  16. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Not by the definition of the word. Some words have more than one meaning, you understand this yes?
     
  17. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. Brother, I never said this. You continue to misunderstand what I have said and what scripture tells us.

    2. Ephesians 4:
    Ephesians 4:
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    He ascened on sunday and sprinkled his blood on the Altar in heaven fulfilling the law and bringing about the new. Through this new law of faith and spirit we are made free and loosed from the bonds of the mosaic law(and the captive of death and damnation that came by the inability to keep it without fault) which was the mosaic law through Christ and his blood. This is what is meant by he led captivity captive(captivity was under the mosaic law by which no man could be saved).

    2. The great tribulation has yet to happen. So this interpretation cannot be correct when looking at the whole of Scripture.

    3. We still die the first death, until we are transformed into our new spiritual form which we will have in heaven we are still subject to the sting of death, but not the damnation and torment of the second death(still to come to the unrighteous).

    4. Your point is still out of agreement with scripture brother.
     
  18. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    You did not read the studies I sent brother.
     
  19. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    To say "paradise" means a place in heaven; but also "paradise" means a place in hell is like saying New York and Tokyo are the same city; because..... they have people living in them. OK.... they both may have people living in them, but how does that make them the same city when they are on opposite sides of the globe? It's a logic that has its own agenda attempted to be forced on the observer. I reject that agenda. It's not Scriptural.

    Besides, no place in the Scripture do you find any part of Hades that's called "paradise". Your conclusion is still just flat out illogical. No matter how many hoops you try to jump through, you're not going to turn a potato into a motorcycle.

    I can see it and anyone who's looking at this thread with just a little bit of common sense, a bit of Scripture knowledge and a bit of church history can see it too.

    (Rhetorical question - How is it you miss this?)
     
  20. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    In greek the definition of a word is derived form the context it is being used in. So a word can mean a place in heaven and a place in sheol, but only one of the definitions of the word can be used a time and it is completely dependent on the context it is being used in. It is not that sheol and heaven are the same place it is that the word means both but can only be speaking of one place at one time(to figure out which you must look at the context it is being used in).

    Do you understand?
     
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