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Featured Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jair Crawford, Mar 20, 2019.

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  1. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    Years of personal suffering, mental Illness caused by said suffering, and compete dysphoria. It's hard to believe in anything when you feel nothing and sometimes doubt your own existence.
     
  2. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Yes, I can certainly feel the pain of dealing with mental illness. A lot of crap has happened to me in life and I've spent my fair share of time in psych hospitals. Just because we can't feel anything, and struggle with our own sanity doesn't mean God isn't real or isn't still there. I've found over the years though that the awareness of His presence has the power to transcend my insanity. Some of my sharpest awareness of the reality of God has come in the times when my mind was not right.
     
  3. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. That is where Christ went that day, and it is one of the definitions of Paradise. More importantly it was one of the definitions know to the Jews at the time Christ was speaking to the thief on the Cross.

    2. Sheol is the grave, and Paradise was thought by the Jews of the time to be the righteous abode of the departed in Hades/Sheol. Christ went to the grave/Sheol at death so we can clearly see this was the definition he was using when speaking with the thief on the cross. There are several definitions of the word Paradise, only by looking at the context the word is being used in can we derive it's meaning. From the context we see that he was neither referring the third part of heaven or a park or garden on earth.

    3. Yes he said today you will be with me in Paradise and since we know that he did not go to heaven until sunday we can clearly see that he was not speaking of the Heavenly Paradise.
    John 20:17-18
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


    4. Sheol is indeed the grave, and it says that he did not first ascend into heaven but first descended into the Lower parts of the earth. Notice how it says there are multiple parts to Sheol, this shows that sheol is in some way divided and from what Christ said about being in Paradise(abode of Pious souls) we can then see that it is divided between the pious souls and the damned souls.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    5. Three days and three nights is speaking is speaking about being three days and three nights in the hands of sinners and in the hands of the Sanhedrin court. Don Adair explains it very well in one of his studies but you can also find it directly from Houteff's writings in the Shepherd's rod also, it is a pretty long read either way(5 or six pages). But it is a proven fact that the three days and three nights is referring to Christ being in the hands of sinners and in the hands of the Sanhedrin court.

    6. No man has ascended into heaven, Paul tells us that none have ascended and we see that the entirety of scripture tells us that no man will be raised unless they are a part of either the first or the second resurrection.
     
  4. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    No worries brother, I wasn't offended.

    The verse is self explanatory. It says he will be with him in paradise today. The definition of the word has several meanings one of which is the Abode of Pious souls in hell/the grave/Sheol. To determine if this is the meaning he was using we look to the rest of scripture. Which says he did not first go to heaven but first went to the lower parts of the earth to the spirits in prison to preach to them. So by looking at the rest of Scripture we see that Christ first went to the grave/Sheol and not heaven showing us that on Friday when he died he went to the Sheol. This helps us to determine that the definition of the word Paradise that he was using was about the abode of the pious souls in Sheol, since that is where he first went to when he died(today/that day).

    Now I may not have explained this well enough before so I will try it again.
    The souls that were in the Abode of the pious were already saved by faith(as we know from scripture), Christ went there when he died and did preach to them but not for them to be saved(since they already were). He then went to the next part of Sheol(prison) where the unrighteous souls were kept/help to preach to THEM and give them a chance at accepting him and believing in him this was the Lord giving all those from the time of Adam to the time of Christ's death a chance at salvation through him.
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Salvation has never been about believing "as best he could". It's about believing in Christ for salvation.
    There is no such thing as believing "as best he could". That would imply effort, skill, etc.

    I defined saving faith. If you disagree with it, then please address my definition and explain why you disagree with it.

    He didn't need to. He surely was aware of who He was, saw, or heard about His miracles. What is clear is that he knew that Jesus was innocent and was going to His kingdom. This shows he had saving faith.
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    It's not knowing doctrine that saves, but BELIEVING the doctrine of saving faith that surely does save.
    And the point? Saving faith saves. That's the point. And that's irregardless of how "thin" it may be.

    That may be your view of doctrine, but it's not mine.

    Doctrine is teaching, categorically. Soteriology is the doctrine of saving faith.

    Hamartiology is the doctrine of sin. Etc.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    You raise an interesting point.
    Everyone assumes the thief on the cross next to Jesus was a lost unchurched individual.
    But he knew Jesus had a kingdom. Where did he learn about that?
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    That's a winner.
     
  9. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Benedict Supporter

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    I think it’s reasonable to connect the dots. Consider the masses bringing their sick to Him to get healed to the point where when He preached He had to climb into a boat and push off shore. The mass feedings, the sermons on the mount and the plane not to mention His triumphal entry and all of the events leading up to His crucifixion. Remember the crowds calling out “crucify Him, crucify Him”! It’s obvious He had to be well known and influential.
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    I agree. Jesus was the talk of the town. I imagine his teachings were being shared far and wide.
     
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Very few people understood them, however, and comprehension doesn't seem to have been necessary.

    We can't ignore Jesus:

    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    That doesn't mean nothing.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    It means something about whether doctrine play a role in salvation. (the topic)
    It means doctrine doesn't play a role in salvation.
     
  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Don't disagree but I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Simply put he had saving faith because he recognized/believed in Jesus as Messiah/Savior. He wasn't concerned about "doctrine" as he "believed as best he could" about Christ at the time of his dying. If you read your NT, there are many who cry out to Jesus to "help them in their unbelief." Formal doctrine comes later as a believer learns/matures in Christ.
     
  14. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Did you even read anything I wrote?
     
  15. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I think Pilate and the soldiers had some awareness too. The Centurion does say "This was the son of God." And if Jesus was not of any notability, neither Pilate or his wife would have any caution of what to do with him. So, I'm sure the thieves had some awareness too.
     
  16. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Except you don't do this. No where in Scripture is Hades called Paradise.
     
  17. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    The process that gets you inducted into Christianity or Salvation is already doctrine.

    Ironically, if you get this wrong, you'll be deceiving many.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    That's an interesting comment. Paradise could be considered a subset of Hades.
    Hades: the underworld; the abode of the spirits of the dead.

    There are 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV Bible. (Hades)
    The only two references in the NT are in Acts chapter two.
    One is in Ecclesiastes chapter nine (vs 10). Just five verses away from the key "proof text" used to claim that death is unconscious nonexistence (vs 5).
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    "Inducted" lol
    That makes it sound so much more inviting.
    You have a point though, sort of.

    Isn't the doctrine more for the person leading someone to Christ?
    The "inductee" hasn't a clue. They feel conviction and know they need to do something.
    The "evangelist" leads them through a process (formed by doctrine) as you say.

    And if you gather ten of us right now and put us out on the street to lead someone to Christ, wouldn't we all use different methods and words? I suppose there would be some common elements. Perhaps that's where this discussion needs to go. What are they? I would guess that we as a group can't even agree on that.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Soteriology is the doctrine of salvation.
    I'm not sure there is any such thing as "saving faith".

    What kind, or how much faith do we need to be saved?
    Maybe you are claiming a salvation by works that includes doctrine that you approve of?
    Which means the judgment will examine everyone's doctrine to see if their Soteriology is approved? If not... flames.
     
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