Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

[Blade]

Anyone.. means what it says.. anyone that calls on the name of the lord OT shall be delivered. NT Anyone that calls in the name of the lord shall be saved. Just telling someone.. this GOD sent His only son..came took your place.. died for you.. so you can be with Him forever.. Name? JESUS! Your in.

See we forget JESUS IS REAL! Its not like a choice to go left then right. He is REAL! You find so many times in your life.. what you wanted to do.. just went away.. and you don't know why.

doctrine.. for Israel or the rest of the world? Jesus now just shows up in a dream vision to people like Muslims just on how much He loves them and died and just says.. I FORGIVE YOU! Now who is going to tell the rest? MAN has made this so much harder then it is. Its so easy to be saved.. I believe from what I seen ..much harder to be lost.

 

[Tigger45]

IIRC those are the only verses regarding the good thief. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

Then we have to be careful to not create our own doctrines outside of scripture don’t we? Also don’t forget Jesus Himself commissioned His Apostles to make disciples in Matthew 28:16-20. You make disciples by teaching doctrines. No way around it.

 

[Jair Crawford]

Then we have to be careful to not create our own doctrines outside of scripture don’t we? Also don’t forget Jesus Himself commissioned His Apostles to make disciples in Matthew 28:16-20. You make disciples by teaching doctrines. No way around it.

Of course. But that is not the same thing as saying that the sound doctrine is what saves.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Jesus plus nothing! the naked gospel.

Naked? :O

 

[JLB777]

I wonder this, not to open up any excuses to ignore sound doctrine, by any means, but because so many different doctrines seem to be given this treatment among different denominations.

Yet I keep going back to the thief on the cross. He didn’t have time to learn any of what we might call essential doctrines yet he got saved. He didn’t have any time to understand TULIP, get his end time theology in order, argue about spiritual gifts, worry about Pauline versus Jamesian view on faith and works; he simply knew Christ in his very spirit being and he was saved right there.

Any thoughts?

Yes, doctrine plays a role in salvation.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


again



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16




JLB

 

[thecolorsblend]

I was referring to the thief on the cross. Luke 23 as quoted above.

@Tigger45 My point is that he didn’t have to be taught that. His spirit was stirred and he responded.

Hm.

You raise a point though. Why didn't the thief take himself down off his cross so that he could at least learn from the apostles?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I wonder this, not to open up any excuses to ignore sound doctrine, by any means, but because so many different doctrines seem to be given this treatment among different denominations.

Yet I keep going back to the thief on the cross. He didn’t have time to learn any of what we might call essential doctrines yet he got saved. He didn’t have any time to understand TULIP, get his end time theology in order, argue about spiritual gifts, worry about Pauline versus Jamesian view on faith and works; he simply knew Christ in his very spirit being and he was saved right there.

Any thoughts?

The thief on the cross died a baby Christian, and that is okay so far as it goes. But is it okay for an adult of sound mind to remain a baby for years without much if any growth? Scripture provides a plain answer, no need to even speculate.

I think any mentally coherent concept of salvation, is loaded with doctrines, but may require much time and thought, disciplined thought to flesh them out and realize the connections and implications, etc. In the heart of a believer, a nuanced concept of salvation is the result of growth through studying Scripture and loving the Lord with all of the mind in the process.

 

[TuxAme]

Sound doctrine IS important. I am not denying this. The question is, does sound doctrine save?

Acceptance of the doctrine matters. It must be related to our salvation, or God wouldn't have bothered with it.

 

[Tigger45]

Of course. But that is not the same thing as saying that the sound doctrine is what saves.

Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can.

So if we’re saved by faith and it comes by hearing, what is it we’re hearing?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Anyone.. means what it says.. anyone that calls on the name of the lord OT shall be delivered. NT Anyone that calls in the name of the lord shall be saved. Just telling someone.. this GOD sent His only son..came took your place.. died for you.. so you can be with Him forever.. Name? JESUS! Your in.

See we forget JESUS IS REAL! Its not like a choice to go left then right. He is REAL! You find so many times in your life.. what you wanted to do.. just went away.. and you don't know why.

doctrine.. for Israel or the rest of the world? Jesus now just shows up in a dream vision to people like Muslims just on how much He loves them and died and just says.. I FORGIVE YOU! Now who is going to tell the rest? MAN has made this so much harder then it is. Its so easy to be saved.. I believe from what I seen ..much harder to be lost.

Amen. Whosoever believes: faith's the means of securing salvation's blessings, it's the condition of acceptance by God. Christ Jesus is Lord of all, a riches-distributor of benefits to all and for all that call upon him. Jesus is the God and Rescuer of believers, and his command is such as to make him able to give his grace to each and every one, and to all together, that call upon him in faith, who worship him as their Redeemer. For that their salvation is their prayer's object is evident. To call upon God's name's identical with calling upon Christ's name. We call upon, worship, Christ as God. Our worshiping is our faith-expression. And by our faith, expressed in our confession, we grasp salvation, we're saved by Jesus. Salvation is intended for all; so the Gospel must be preached in the whole world.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Hm.

You raise a point though. Why didn't the thief take himself down off his cross so that he could at least learn from the apostles?

Hmm... on the cross he could learn from Jesus.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Naked? :O

Yeah, we clothe it with our own expectations.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Hmm... on the cross he could learn from Jesus.

Learning from him does not require him to stay on the cross.

So again, why didn't the thief just come down from the cross?

The answer is a little obvious.

 

[TuxAme]

I would dare to say that most of us posting here aren't at the point of death, learning about Jesus for the first time (if we say that this is the situation the Good Thief found himself in), so I think Hard Cases Make Bad Law should apply here.

 

[icxn]

Jesus plus nothing! the naked gospel.

And how much work is required to add that nothingness! To empty ourselves of our big ego...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think you just put my thoughts into words much better than I did.

I stole those thoughts from Derek Prince!

 

[Kaon]

I wonder this, not to open up any excuses to ignore sound doctrine, by any means, but because so many different doctrines seem to be given this treatment among different denominations.

Yet I keep going back to the thief on the cross. He didn’t have time to learn any of what we might call essential doctrines yet he got saved. He didn’t have any time to understand TULIP, get his end time theology in order, argue about spiritual gifts, worry about Pauline versus Jamesian view on faith and works; he simply knew Christ in his very spirit being and he was saved right there.

Any thoughts?

The Word of God Himself was able to give us all an "on loan" spirit through His Pentecost. So, each of us have the luxury of conviction from the Most High God Himself. This is the kernel of Truth He leaves us with so that we may know, and come to the Truth in full (as much as possible in this body).


Having said that, I want to be very firm about this:

The Word of God is a Living Entity.

I don't mean the Word of God in a figurative sense; I mean the actual Word of God who shed His blood for the remission of sins is a Living Entity. This is the same One that poured His spirit out to all of us as per the promise of our Father - the Most High God - in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 59:21, and Ezekiel 36:25-27.

In any of this, do you see a mention of doctrine? The focus is, and always will be a spiritual relationship between you and your Father. Doctrine is from men; always compare everything to what the Most High God, and what the Word of God Himself says. They are the Arbiters of all of the law, and the entire creation.

EDIT: The only "doctrine" should be what the Word of God Himself, or the Most High God says.

 

[Ecclesiastian]

For salvation? No. Except perhaps soteriology and Christology, since if you don't have the correct understanding of salvation you may chase after the wrong things to attain it, and if you don't know who Christ is you don't know He can save you to begin with. But the rest doesn't impact one's ability to be granted salvation; it does however impact one's ability to rightly divide the word of truth and conduct themselves in worship properly.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

And how much work is required to add that nothingness! To empty ourselves of our big ego...

It is our work to trust Him. God does the rest.

 

[Oldmantook]

I wonder this, not to open up any excuses to ignore sound doctrine, by any means, but because so many different doctrines seem to be given this treatment among different denominations.

Yet I keep going back to the thief on the cross. He didn’t have time to learn any of what we might call essential doctrines yet he got saved. He didn’t have any time to understand TULIP, get his end time theology in order, argue about spiritual gifts, worry about Pauline versus Jamesian view on faith and works; he simply knew Christ in his very spirit being and he was saved right there.

Any thoughts?

The thief on the cross is not a good example as he believed as best he could with the short time remaining with his life. The same thing would apply to genuine death bed conversions. These examples are not typical for the majority of believers however. With the passing of time, one is expected to not remain as a "babe" in Christ but to be discipled into mature believers according to the doctrines and practices of the apostles.