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Featured Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jair Crawford, Mar 20, 2019.

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  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States
    The bible doesn't give any background information about the thief on the cross that was saved (other than he was a thief). It would seem to me however he had some previous knowledge about Jesus because he made the statement "this man has done nothing wrong", To me indicates he had previous knowledge about Jesus to base that statement on. What that knowledge was, we don't know. He had a changed heart ... and only God knows the hearts of men.

    God left to mankind His Word that we might know Him; He wants us to know Him, and love Him willingly. How can one love another without knowing them?

    God is love. He wants us to understand about unselfish love and that is taught (doctrine) through His Word. It is through His Word

    We live in a time where it has never been easier to study His Word and are called to do so...so we should do so.

    2 John 1:9

    Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching (doctrine) of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching (doctrine), he has both the Father and the Son.

    How does one abide, if they do not know what the teachings(doctrines) are?

    Yes, doctrine (instruction from Gods Word) is important.

    Everyone should study His Word daily.

    Hebrews 4:12

    For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

    May the Lord lead all through the truth of His Holy Word and change our hearts. Amen
  2. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

    United States
    Everything you just said is result of heaping yourself to doctrines of men that tell you what The Bible says rather than following Christ Jesus and learning what Faith is. Everything you said is a tons of interjection into Gods word to convolute the very simplicity of The Faith exhibited by Moses into something it isn't. Everything you have built yourself upon is going to lead people to an intellectual collapse so far from following Christ that there will be no Christ in them.
  3. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    United States
    Everything that I said comes directly from the word of God, I added nothing nor did I take anything away. It is the doctrine of the Apostles and Christ, not a doctrine that comes from man. Everything I said is simple and easy to be understood with study into God's word alone setting aside the doctrines of men most have previously been taught. If the truth that I believe in leads people to deny the Lord because they cannot let go their man made doctrine, then that is between them and the Lord. Not all who say lord lord will enter into heaven and be saved.
  4. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

    United States
    One more thing...When Jesus told the their "Today you will be with me in paradise", it had nothing to do with Him going to a realm called "Sheol", but says exactly what it says. Have you forgotten that Jesus IS Yahweh in Human Flesh, even while still upon the Cross? Meaning that he was speaking to him as I AM just as he said "Before Abraham as I AM" when speaking to the Pharisees?

    I want you to look at what your Calvinism does. It cause you to forget the very nature of who Christ Jesus is and take any and every verse it can by denying the very simple statement it makes and Calvinists say "Well, it doesn't really mean that", but rather than explaining the actual verse, you guys jump to multiple places around the scriptures, taking random verses out of their context twit isn't those verses to support the idea that the original verse doesn't really mean what it says.

    James White and John MacArthur have twisted the crap out of your mind and caused the word of God to have Zero effect in your life.

    Please guy, drop your Calvinism nonsense and come back to the Father that saved you by His Son. Stop telling the Bible what it says and let it speak for itself.
  5. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

    United States
    Understand this, everything you just said about a person learning things about and from Father, is for those that have already been born again.
  6. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    United States
    1. Well by looking at the definition of the word(since paradise has a few different meanings not just one), the context it was being said in, and comparing it to the rest of scripture we find that it is a biblical fact that Christ first went to sheol/the grave/hades/Hell, then when he was risen on Sunday he ascended to heaven. If we let scripture speak on it's own by comparing scripture with scripture and letting the word of God interpret the word of God we can clearly see the truth of God's Gospel.

    2. I think that might be where you went wrong brother, you are tying to explain a verse instead of letting the entirety of God's word explain it without any addition from yourself. Each verse I have quoted means exactly what I quoted it as saying.

    3. I don't believe I know who those two people are, maybe I should read them? Is this you recommeding them to me brother? Because I have never heard those two names before.

    4. I am not a Calvinist(their doctrine disagrees with the word of God on many points), I am a member of the Apostolic faith just as the Apostles were. I am a disciple of YHWH, and as we are commanded to do I never add any interpretation to the bible but always let it speak on its own and in its entirety.
  7. Unnamed Guy

    Unnamed Guy Member

    United States
    Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)
    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    There are several mistakes in the interpretation. First you need to remember that the bible was not written in English. All punctuation was added by some human and is up for a vote among other humans. Capital letters were likewise added, and eastern expressions had to be rendered in English expressions.

    Second, you must consider that some words do not mean what you have been told they mean. The word for "garden" specifically means a place on Earth, enclosed by walls, with flowing water. Not heaven.

    Third, it was not possible to be saved at that time. It did not become possible until Pentecost.

    Finally, nobody was going anywhere that day except to their grave.

    Conclusion: We have to change the punctuation to agree with reality. It should say 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today (comma) thou shalt (in the future) be with me in paradise.

    But as touching salvation, you really should learn a few doctrines by reading the bible, rejecting anything you have been taught that does not agree with the bible. Read a chapter of Proverbs every day. Proverbs has 31 chapters so you can keep your place just by looking at a calendar. Then read from Romans to 2 Thessalonians over and over until you start remembering passages. That is the part the applies to Christians.

    Remember, Christ was not a Christian. He was a Jew speaking to Jews about Jewish concerns. He knew nothing of the mystery.

    Ephesians 3:4-7 King James Version (KJV)
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
  8. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    In Relationship
    There is doctrine set by Jesus Christ of Nazareth who is the chief cornerstone and where the foundation are the Apostles chosen by the Father to do His will. All the rest is either doctrines of men or theological systems that divide one denomination from another. It is up to the discerning Christian to weed through what is the truth and what is not the truth. Though the thief on the cross died saved and knew nothing of the multitudes of opinions he did know one truth, The Kingdom of God was at hand and Jesus Christ of Nazareth is KING.

    “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
  9. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    United States
    First principle of Scriptural interpretation. You interpret Scripture by comparing it to itself. It is its own interpreter, dictionary and commentary. Thayer's Greek Lexicon is wrong. "Paradise" is not the "top part of Hades"! We know this because the Scriptures themselves tell us what "paradise" is.

    So, let's deal with the word "paradise" first.

    "Paradise" is Strong's # 3857.

    Sheol is Stong's # 86 (which is Greek word Hades) "Sheol" is Hebrew word for the Greek word "Hades". "Sheol" itself is not used in the New Testament. There are Greek transliterations of Hebrew words in the New Testament, but this is not one of them.

    The Greek word "Paradise" used here is borrowed from the Persian language. It means "garden" or "park".

    Revelation 2:7 tells us "the tree of life" is in "the paradise of God".

    The second place this word is used is 2 Corinthians 12:4. In this passage Paul is relaying something he heard from a man who was "caught up to paradise".

    Now verse 2 of this same passage tells us where the "paradise of God" is. It's in the "third heaven".

    So when Jesus told this thief "Today" (He did not say Sunday morning. He said TODAY) you will be with me in paradise; He is NOT talking about Sheol! We know from the rest of Scripture that Jesus is telling this thief he will be in the 3rd heaven, in paradise where the tree of life is. And since it seems highly likely the thief died after Jesus did; the thief never went to Sheol. Because for the believer: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

    Next - We'll deal with "Sheol". When did Jesus go to Sheol?

    Psalm 16:10
    Acts 2:27
    Acts 2:31
    "You have not left my (his) soul in hell".

    Because Acts quotes Psalms. This is how we know "hades" and "Sheol" are the same place.

    Next passage (you quoted this one already)
    1 Peter 3:18-19
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Next passage (you quoted this one too)
    Ephesians 4:9-10
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    Now compare Ephesians 4:9-10 to Matthew 12:40. (Matthew 12:40 refers back to Jonah 1:17) This is the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth" passage.

    So, comparing all these passages together; somewhere in "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth" Jesus's soul goes to Sheol. When did that happen? The answer is in:

    Now I'm giving you fair warning here - it's not likely you have ever heard this explanation any place else; but it has totally come out of comparing Bible verses to each other.

    Genesis 2:7
    Exodus 12
    Pslam 104:29
    Jeremiah 25:15-16
    Jeremiah 30
    Daniel 9:27
    Jonah 2:2
    Matthew 24:6-13
    Matthew 24:22&29, Mark 13:20&24
    Luke 13:32
    Luke 22:43
    Luke 23:45
    John 12:1-3
    John 12:29&31
    John 18:1&6
    Revelation 20:1-3

    John 12:1-3 - Mary (Lazarus's sister) anoints Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". Jesus says to Judas: "Leave her alone, against the day of my burial she has kept this." That "time clue" is important; keep it in the back of your head!

    Daniel 9:27 "confirm the covenant for a week". From the time Mary anoints Jesus's feet to the day of the crucifixion is "one week". This happens Thursday after sundown (which would have commenced Friday. This is the start of "the great tribulation".

    Friday - I don't think the Scriptures tell us specifically what Jesus did Friday day. (Probably preached in the temple.)

    Saturday - Sabbath.

    Sunday - Triumphant entry into Jerusalem.

    Monday - Preached in the temple. Jesus tells a pharisee who comes to Him to warn Him that Herod wants to kill Him. Jesus says "Tell that fox: Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." The "third day" is the commencement of Wednesday.

    The word "perfected" here is kind of a weird word. It literally means "to come to the fullness of extension" and is usually used in context of conceiving children. We'd use the world "climax". So Jesus "comes to His climax" which in context of this verse he's referring to casting out devils, doing cures and preaching.

    Again though, go back to Daniel 9:27. "the middle of the week" is "Messiah cut off".

    Tuesday - Preaches in the temple. Leaves the temple Tuesday before sundown. Jesus and disciples are having a conversation about the temple being destroyed.

    Thunder is heard (John 12:29). Jesus explains to them what that thunder is. (John 12:31) Satan has been cast out of heaven. (Revelation 20:1-3)

    From here Jesus goes to Bethany to dinner at the house of Simon the leper. (Since we are after sundown - we are now into Wednesday) While He's eating an anonymous woman pours a jar of oil over His head. Again He tells the disciples: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 24:6-13)

    This is the commencement of the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". We know this because exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later - Jesus is dead!

    This is also the commencement of the "middle of the weeK" when the Messiah is cut off.

    Wednesday - That night Jesus washes the disciples feet and spends much of the rest of the night explaining to them what will happen to Him.

    Thursday - They prepare for the passover Thursday morning. Eat it in the upper room Thursday night. They leave the building and go to the "garden" near a brook Cedron; (John 18:1) which is in the Mt. of Olives but is not "Gethsemane".

    This is the first attempt to arrest Jesus. A small band come and ask for Jesus. He says. "I am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6) This is one of 4 places in the Scripture that speak of people "falling backwards" and in all those places, they are under the condemnation of God. This should tell you something about the modern "pentecostal" practice of "slain in the spirit". All the people in Scripture who "fell before God" went face down, not backwards. I digress here - but anyways.

    They go from this garden to gethsemane. A "gethsemane" is not a garden. There were multiple "gethsemane(s)" in the Mt. of Olives. a gethsemane is where an olive press is. They were located inside caves and this is where they pressed the olives for the oil that burned the lamps in the temple. During feasts when lots of people were in Jerusalem, people would stay in these caves as shelter.

    So Jesus is in this cave and an angel comes to Him. (Luke 22:43) What angel is this? The passage in English says "....angel from heaven; strengthening him..." but the Greek actually means "display of force against". So, go back to Exodus 12. What angel passes through the land at midnight on the passover to kill the first born? (The angel of death.) So who is this angel who comes to Jesus? (It's the angel of death.) What does the angel of death do to Jesus.

    Scripture explains to us that when organisms die, the "breath of life" returns to God. (Psalm 104:29) The breath of life is what makes men "living souls". (Genesis 2:7)

    So the angel of death removes the breath of life from Jesus which confines His soul to Sheol. Jesus does not die though; why not? Because He has a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature.

    This is the "shortening" of "the tribulation" because if "the tribulation is not shortened; no flesh would be saved"! (Matthew 24:22) When is "flesh saved". That has to do with the atonement!

    What is "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". That is speaking of the wrath of God. "Out of the belly of hell you heard my cry." (Jonah 2:2)

    Look at Jesus's behavior from the point He leaves the temple to the night of passover. He's extremely distressed. Why? Jeremiah 30 answers that question. This passage also talks about "Jacob's trouble" which is "the great tribulation". What is "Jacob" afraid of? (vs 10) He's afraid of failing God. He's afraid of losing what he came to accomplish. "Jacob" is not eternally lost though on account of Jacob's own righteousness. God being just though, can not rightfully condemn someone who is not a sinner. This is why Jesus's own personal integrity is so important to the atonement.

    Jeremiah 25 talks about "the cup of God's wrath" causes the nations to "go mad". "Jacob" is probably also afraid of going insane and that is what will happen if God does not intervene. And this is why the angel of death confines Jesus's soul to hades. Jesus is determined to compete this course of action; but He can't do so if He's an emotional mess.

    Now would the Romans have crucified someone they deemed to be insane? Probably not.

    Note Jesus's interactions with people from the point this angel leaves until Jesus dies. He remains morally and cognitively intact; but absolutely emotionless.

    By the point of "Why have you forsaken me". "I thirst" and "It is finished" Jesus becomes more and more difficult to understand. Those who wrote the Scripture give us by interoperation from the Holy Spirit what Jesus said; but those who were present could not understand Him. The Greek denotes that His "cries" sound like the screeching of a crow. Obviously as His body breaks down; He's no longer able to produce intelligible speech.

    Last thing says He bows His head and "gives up" or "sends off" His spirit. This is his human spirit, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, just as the Father had already forsaken Him. Jesus dies because the Divine nature is rent from the human nature. This is what actually kills him.

    His soul is released from Sheol (as well as the souls of all those He's atoned for who died on the OT side of the cross). Soul and spirt ascend to heaven to stand before the Father as "the lamb that was slain". We see this in Revelation 5. Note who's there with Him. "those who've come out of great tribulation". They are "souls" (not bodies) who "live and reign with Him 1000 years". (Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4)

    Jesus's body rests on the Sabbath.

    Rises from the dead on Sunday before dawn. Ephesians 1:18-22 tell us that Christ begins to "reign" when He rises from the dead.

    Now when does Jesus ascend back to the Father? (I.E. in bodily form as a whole person) That happens 40 days later.

    Why does Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him? Other people touch Him later on (women included). He says to her that He still has to ascend to the Father; yet we have no other Scriptural evidence that suggests Jesus left the earth and went back to heaven in bodily form between Sunday resurrection and the ascension.

    Matter of fact this word "ascend" Strong's # 305. Is only used once in the context of "ascend to heaven". Acts 2:34 talks about David has not "ascended" to heaven before "the Lord says to my Lord sit at my right hand...." When does Jesus "sit down at the right hand of God the Father". That one I'd have to research some more.

    This response is long enough right now though, so I leave it as is.
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  10. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

    United States
    Are yo
    Are you a Calvinist?
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    I'm going to ignore the issue of Calvinism in my argument, because Calvinism itself obviates the significance of doctrine.


    Knowing correct doctrine does not save anyone.

    However, knowing correct doctrine protects the saved from later abandoning their salvation.
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  12. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

    United States
    Ignore my last question. I saw that you said you weren't a Calvinist. My bad. It's that your terminology is almost identical to a Calvinist, but that's my fault for assuming. Forgive me.

    Secondly, i still meant what I said. With the beginning verse you quoted, you jump to multiple verses to explain a verse in another place without first having the explanation of the original first. That isn't using the entirety of scripture to validate single scripture, it's taking different pieces out of it's place to uphold a belief while foregoing the face value of what is said. Jesus didn't go to a realm called "Sheol" because "Sheol" simply means what the definition says.."the grave". The Saints that were in Abraham's bosom were already saved by the blood of the Messiah because they believed in the promise of the Messiah that Father gave them in the Old Testament beginning with Adam. Hebrews 11 is specifically about this. Those saints didn't need to have Jesus come preach to them because they already believed in what Jehovah promised. Again, when Jesus says to theif "Today, you will be with me in Paradise", it meant just what it said. At that moment, the thief was washed in His blood because he believed that Jesus was that Messiah. Jesus is Yahweh in Human Flesh and that did not cease at the Cross. Jesus was speaking to him as I AM just how he had done since the beginning.
  13. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

    United States
    Excellent question, and interesting replies. This is actually something I've been wondering myself lately.

    My take is that the short answer is: No, someone doesn't have to know doctrine in order to be saved. The thief on the cross was fully saved without knowing a word of doctrine. And God didn't give us that event as an afterthought. It's an important lesson to allay a lot of misguided interpretations about salvation.

    Having said that, however, I'm thinking that someone's approach to doctrine can be an indication of where his or her heart truly is in relation to the risen Lord. God gave us the book of 1John as the text to examine ourselves as to whether we are truly saved. As far as I can tell, there is no test there for how much doctrine we know. It's all about the fruits that our salvation bears.

    So, how does this apply to doctrine? There are those who, in my opinion, in their zeal for expounding on their version of doctrine find themselves in danger of not exhibiting the fruit of the spirit that shows they are truly saved.

    IOW, how far afield from understanding Scripture can one go and still believe in the same God of the Bible that the righteous saved do? And if they don't believe in the biblical God, with all His attributes, how can they truly believe in Him to the point of salvation? I personally think that where one is in doctrinal issues can be an indicator.

    An example: A favorite Bible teacher liked to say that if someone denies the first seven words of the Bible (in the Hebrew) then he or she has worse problems than just not understanding creation. Denying Elohim's role in creation leads to a cascading series of misinterpretations that eventually has that denier believing in a different god than the God of the Bible. Can someone who denies God the Creator truly be saved?

    That's between him or her and God, of course. We can't exactly know.

    Another example: There is another popular Christian forum, which will remain nameless, where the preterists own the eschatology forum. The mods let them get away with the most vile, ugly, taunting, goading, unChristian behavior against those who believe in the rapture and the millennial reign of Christ. I'm not convinced that the worst of them are truly saved, although they claim to be. Their fruit is rotten to the core.

    I thank God that Christian Forums is not like that. With only a couple of exceptions I have found the discourse here to be on a much higher level, with only the occasional slippage into ad hominem and ugliness; and the mods quickly surface to deal with it.

    Short version: One doesn't have to know doctrine to be saved. But the doctrine that someone believes, and how they treat others who they disagree with, can be one of the indicator fruits that we are supposed to exhibit once we are saved. And, it's possible for someone to cross that line and be someone who Jesus said He never knew.
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Maybe somebody already beat me to it, but the Bible says:

    "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9).
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    Salvation has never been about believing "as best he could". It's about believing in Christ for salvation.
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran


    It's not knowing doctrine that saves, but BELIEVING the doctrine of saving faith that surely does save.
  17. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    He was chosen. Probably before the earth was formed his destiny was to die with The Christ.
  18. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    United States
    I'm assuming you mean does doctrine play any role in salvation in the most basic sense - i.e. getting saved and placed in a "justified" state before God.

    Obviously salvation in the more comprehensive sense (sanctification) needs, or at least can use, strong doctrine (meat vs. milk) in order to bring us where God wants us to be in life.

    It is true that the thief on the cross (or the jailer in Philippi for that matter) needed only to be told that Christ was the way to salvation and was not in need of or ready for heavier doctrine. They needed no more to be saved than the basic message of the sufficiency or Christ to save in the most basic sense.

    But - particularly in this day and age (and in this particular forum IMO) the fact that sound doctrine isn't necessary to be saved is a bit of a "catch 22".

    If I tell a prospective believer that, "Faith in Christ's finished work at Calvary on your behalf is all that is needed to escape Hell and achieve Heaven" - that in itself is sound doctrine. That kind of sound doctrine is, regrettably, if not necessary at least advisable as part of the simple gospel message.

    If a person believes on a gospel that includes works in order to be saved (e.g. "cooperating with God" to be returned to the proper relationship with God that Adam once had - read the "Orthodox" message of salvation) that person has believed a gospel which not only doesn't justify him but he is believing a false gospel.

    Likewise if a person believes a gospel that includes partaking of the Eucharist in a prescribed manner or other "church" ordinances to be save and stay saved - that person has believed a gospel which not only doesn't justify him before God but he is believing a false gospel.

    On the other hand - there are also those who say that a person needs to live up to a certain standard or he will not achieve salvation or he will lose whatever salvation he once had. In that case the potential believer may also be believing a false gospel - which is, according to God, no gospel at all.

    So here we have a catch 22 for evangelicals everywhere in their preaching of the basic gospel.

    One must give out sound doctrine concerning salvation by grace through faith alone in order to be sure the person is believing the correct rendition of the gospel.

    There are way too many false teachers standing ready and willing to preach a false gospel to a potential believer. To not clarify salvation by grace seems a little lax.

    Having said all that - I obviously don't know for sure how much doctrine of works makes the basic belief in the work of Christ of no avail. I wish I could know that everyone who names the name of Christ will be saved even if their understanding of the basic gospel is shrouded in extra fluff.

    But there are just too many warnings about false gospels to not be sure people understand the simplicity of the basic message.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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  19. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    The thief believed as best he could with whatever time he had remaining on the cross. I assume he did not have the time to read any doctrinal statements regarding soteriology.
  20. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    That amount of doctrine is very slim.

    All the rest of the stuff we total up as doctrine is just a matter of attempting to keep someone from straying from the very slim amount that a person needs to believe (which isn't the same thing as knowing) for salvation over the course of time.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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