Does Colossians 2:16 refer to weekly Sabbaths?

BobRyan

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Yes we see your spam.

What you see is inconvenient details that you had hoped would vanish once ignored. It was better in your view than actually addressing the points raised. (for reasons that remain "illusive")

Yes DL Moody is very explicit.

Indeed he is. Very easy for all who choose to read his statement to see the point.

The material already cited is from The Ten Commandments by DL Moody on the Fundamental Baptist Institute site.

Yes it is - I have made that clear in triplicate in my posts quoting him.

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest,

Yes he does say that -- but I still list him in the group of "Sunday sources" because I think he is fine with a "sunday Sabbath" all the same.

Hence my signature line on all my posts --


===========================================
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

==============================

So far you are the second person who chooses to post a strong affirmative of the point I am making then pat yourself on the back as if that disproves the point I make. But you can't disprove the point by strongly affirming it.

Not sure how this is escaping you.
 
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godenver1

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The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since.

This is demonstrably false, and one of the weaker arguments made by Sabbatarians. No where in Genesis does God give a Sabbath command. No where are any of the patriarchs given the command to observe the Sabbath. Murder is condemned, sexual immorality is condemned, but inconveniently Sabbath observance is not commanded.

The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.
"Remember" can also mean 'don't forget'. 'Don't forget to keep the Sabbath, because it's the sign of our covenant'. Again, no where are any of the Patriarchs, whether it be Adam or Noah or Abraham or Isaac or Jacob commanded to observe the Seventh day Sabbath.
 
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ace of hearts

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What you see is inconvenient details that you had hoped would vanish once ignored. It was better in your view than actually addressing the points raised. (for reasons that remain "illusive")



Indeed he is. Very easy for all who choose to read his statement to see the point.



Yes it is - I have made that clear in triplicate in my posts quoting him.



Yes he does say that -- but I still list him in the group of "Sunday sources" because I think he is fine with a "sunday Sabbath" all the same.

Hence my signature line on all my posts --


===========================================
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

==============================

So far you are the second person who chooses to post a strong affirmative of the point I am making then pat yourself on the back as if that disproves the point I make. But you can't disprove the point by strongly affirming it.

Not sure how this is escaping you.
You flip flop to badly to be believed. Here you say Sunday is an acceptable substitute for the sabbath you've madly been defending. You're argument is waste basket case.
 
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BobRyan

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No it's clearly the 7th day keepers raising the issue. See Acts 15.

As already pointed out - it is the seventh-day keepers of Acts 15 to whom they bring the problem and ask for a solution - and get a solution.

Notice that James is the same one that has "people" that intimidate Peter into no longer "eating with the gentiles". So then "yep" -- Sabbath keeping for sure.

Beyond that little nit -- the basic details of ALL TEN commandments as the moral law of God binding on all mankind since the garden of Eden and do so still to this very day - a Bible detail so obvious that both sides of this discussion agree.

=====================

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God
I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

==================================== all TEN


The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Section 19

19. The Law of God
  1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

  2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

  3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.


  4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.


  5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.


  6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.


  7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.
=================================


Notice the "details" in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

1. TEN Commandments included in the LAW of God given to mankind in Eden.
2. SAME law given at Sinai as the MORAL Law of God.
3. That law binds all mankind after the cross and before it.
4. It is perfectly consistent with grace and therefore the Gospel
5. Laws OTHER than the TEN commandments were given to Israel and those other laws included the ceremonial laws - which are no longer in place after the cross.

The Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19 makes the SAME 5 points.

====================
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

===================



They all confess that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments were applicable to all mankind in Eden.
D.L. Moody is very explicit on the Sabbath Commandment in Eden.

==================== D.L. Moody on the Sabbath Commandment

The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.



THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
from: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Now I ask you why you try to compel us to live like Jews?

those guys above are not "all Jews" as you seem to suppose and even they can admit to the obvious Bible details about God's Ten Commandments. We can all see that.

====================================================
Notice this response to D.L.Moody's statement

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since."

(Which is in complete agreement with all those confessions of faith -- when they argue for all TEN of the Ten commandments binding on all mankind in Eden)

This is demonstrably false, and one of the weaker arguments made by Sabbatarians. No where in Genesis does God give a Sabbath command.

Nor does he say in Genesis "Do not take God's name in vain"
Nor does He say in Genesis "Honor your father and mother"

Yet God does tell us that Gen 2:1-3 is the point when the Sabbath day was set apart, made holy, sanctified, and thus obligating on mankind as even the pro-sunday scholars above agree.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


No wonder Christ speaks BOTH of the making of the Sabbath and the making of mankind - Gen 1-2:3

"The Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27
 
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BobRyan

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Yes we see your spam.

What you see is inconvenient details that you had hoped would vanish once ignored. It was better in your view than actually addressing the points raised. (for reasons that remain "illusive")

Yes DL Moody is very explicit.

Indeed he is. Very easy for all who choose to read his statement to see the point.

The material already cited is from The Ten Commandments by DL Moody on the Fundamental Baptist Institute site.

Yes it is - I have made that clear in triplicate in my posts quoting him.

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest,

Yes he does say that -- but I still list him in the group of "Sunday sources" because I think he is fine with a "sunday Sabbath" all the same.

Hence my signature line on all my posts --


===========================================
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

==============================

D L Moody is not presenting Saturday as the sabbath for the Christian. He clearly calls Sunday the sabbath.

And I call him a "sunday source" as an example of BOTH sides agreeing to key Bible details not just one side.

So far you are the second person who chooses to post a strong affirmative of the point I am making then pat yourself on the back as if that disproves the point I make. But you can't disprove the point by strongly affirming it.

Not sure how this is escaping you.

You flip to badly to be believed. Here you say Sunday is an acceptable substitute for the sabbath you've madly been defending. You're argument is waste basket case.

Step 1. follow the line of argument in the post
Step 2. object to it if you like
Step 3. stop quoting "yourself" when trying to attribute something to me.

I never claim to " say Sunday is an acceptable substitute for the sabbath " - that is you quoting you.

D.L. Moody accepts such a "bent" Sabbath after the cross - but I never argue that this is one of the details that BOTH sides agree to.

Rather the obvious points I bring out are that
1. BOTH sides agree that Sabbath begin in Eden as the 7th day
2. BOTH sides agree that Adam and Eve kept the 7th day Sabbath
3. BOTH sides agree the Sabbath commandment applies to all mankind
4. BOTH sides agree all TEN of the TEN commandments are included in the moral law of God
5. BOTH sides agree that the moral law of God is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant known to Jeremiah Jer 31:31-33
6. BOTH sides agree that the Sabbath commandment remains binding on all mankind to this very day.

BUT the sides DIFFER in that one side claims the Sabbath commandment was 'bent' -- "Changed" at some point after the cross and the other side claims God never did any such thing.

So they both talk about a "change" after the cross but one side says God approved it and the other side says no such change can be found in scripture and it is merely a man-made-tradition that is flawed.

Here then are the obvious "details"

What is most common of all on the CF Forum for LAW and the Sabbath is to see the anti-Sabbath groups stuck in arguments against the first 6 points -- where "both sides" agree.
 
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ace of hearts

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As already pointed out - it is the seventh-day keepers of Acts 15 to whom they bring the problem and ask for a solution - and get a solution.
What? Aren't the Apostles life long blood line Jews? Sure they keep the sabbath. You should know what was being addressed. It's keeping the law of Moses which includes the famous 10.
Notice that James is the same one that has "people" that intimidate Peter into no longer "eating with the gentiles". So then "yep" -- Sabbath keeping for sure.
So what? What does that have to do with the counsel convened in Jerusalem? I didn't see Peter's name mentioned in verse 2. I've no idea who the other certain were. Evidently they weren't worth mentioning.
Beyond that little nit -- the basic details of ALL TEN commandments as the moral law of God binding on all mankind since the garden of Eden and do so still to this very day - a Bible detail so obvious that both sides of this discussion agree.
There's no Bible evidence what you say is true. In fact it testifies against you with Deut 5:1-3.

The rest of your post is c&p already dealt with.
 
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ace of hearts

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What you see is inconvenient details that you had hoped would vanish once ignored. It was better in your view than actually addressing the points raised. (for reasons that remain "illusive")
I missed nothing from your c&p job proving you've got nothing. You don't seem to be able to respond properly to much of anything.
 
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BobRyan

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What? Aren't the Apostles life long blood line Jews? Sure they keep the sabbath.

And "every Sabbath" BOTH Jews and gentiles attend worship services in Acts 18:4 to hear "more Gospel preaching".

Isaiah 56:6-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

Bible details so obvious BOTH sides admit to them.

It just does not get any easier than this.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
 
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BobRyan

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I missed nothing from your c&p job proving you've got nothing. You don't seem to be able to respond properly to much of anything.

this is your response to opposing your own sunday-affirming Bible scholarship on almost all of their points about the Sabbath commandment? really??? blame it all on 'me'??

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.
 
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No, I don't see my error, because I remain unconvinced that the Decalogue, as written in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 is segregated from the rest of the Mosaic Laws. Also, Paul doesn't mention sacrifices in Colossians 2:16, so that position requires reading something into the text that isn't there, and, again, I don't believe there is sufficient contextual reasons to do that.

I dont know if this helps you but I will like to show you some scripture. First in verse 14 of Colossians 2 it says..
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Now this blotting out the handwriting of ordinances is what leads to the conclusion in verse 16. Now according to the people the book of the law written by Moses was separated from the 10 commandments.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

The 10 commandments were places inside the ark below the mercy seat while the book of the law was placed on the side of the ark. So they were separated. I think this is pretty clear. So the Sabbath in the 10 commandments is not the same as the monthly sabbath that were established based on special feasts. The handwriting of ordinances being referred to is the law of sacrifices and ordinances as written by Moses. In Hebrews 10: 1 - 7, in speaking about the shadows it focused on the sacrifices and ordinances offered by the Law. The Monthly Sabbaths were only sabbaths because of the feasts and ceremonies that took place on those day, the weekly Sabbath as pointed out in Exodus 20:8 - 11 is based on recognizing God as the creator. The weekly Sabbath is therefore not a shadow of anything or else it would have not been created in a perfect world. Have you ever also thought about the fact that God did not have to make the 7th day at all? We could have had a 6 day week with no Sabbath. God specifically instituted a 7 days week, one being the Sabbath even though he created the world in 6 days. If everything he made at creation is here with us today, why should the Sabbath also not be?

 
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ace of hearts

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And "every Sabbath" BOTH Jews and gentiles attend worship services in Acts 18:4 to hear "more Gospel preaching".
But not Christians.
Isaiah 56:6-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.
Only if they join the covenant given to Israel. If they do they are considered as one born in the land and not a foreigner/stranger.
Bible details so obvious BOTH sides admit to them.
Not in practice which is reality. You seem to live in a fantasy world.
It just does not get any easier than this.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
The verse says from...to. The verse says nothing about on.
 
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ace of hearts

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this is your response to opposing your own sunday-affirming Bible scholarship on almost all of their points about the Sabbath commandment? really??? blame it all on 'me'??

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.
You seem to think I follow men. I didn't submit any Bible scholarship agreeing with keeping the covenant given to Israel. You make that claim and project it on me wrongfully.
 
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ace of hearts

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I dont know if this helps you but I will like to show you some scripture. First in verse 14 of Colossians 2 it says..
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Now this blotting out the handwriting of ordinances is what leads to the conclusion in verse 16. Now according to the people the book of the law written by Moses was separated from the 10 commandments.
Would you be so kind as to explain how or why ceremonial laws are the only laws against us?

I know about the law (famous 10) only because it's included in my Bible. You seem to claim you know about the famous 10 because they're excluded from the Book of the Law. So produce the stone tablets.
Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

The 10 commandments were places inside the ark below the mercy seat while the book of the law was placed on the side of the ark. So they were separated. I think this is pretty clear. So the Sabbath in the 10 commandments is not the same as the monthly sabbath that were established based on special feasts. The handwriting of ordinances being referred to is the law of sacrifices and ordinances as written by Moses. In Hebrews 10: 1 - 7, in speaking about the shadows it focused on the sacrifices and ordinances offered by the Law. The Monthly Sabbaths were only sabbaths because of the feasts and ceremonies that took place on those day, the weekly Sabbath as pointed out in Exodus 20:8 - 11 is based on recognizing God as the creator. The weekly Sabbath is therefore not a shadow of anything or else it would have not been created in a perfect world. Have you ever also thought about the fact that God did not have to make the 7th day at all? We could have had a 6 day week with no Sabbath. God specifically instituted a 7 days week, one being the Sabbath even though he created the world in 6 days. If everything he made at creation is here with us today, why should the Sabbath also not be?
Because it (the sabbath requirement) isn't included in our covenant.
 
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Yes we see your spam.

What you see is inconvenient details that you had hoped would vanish once ignored. It was better in your view than actually addressing the points raised. (for reasons that remain "illusive")

Yes DL Moody is very explicit.

Indeed he is. Very easy for all who choose to read his statement to see the point.

The material already cited is from The Ten Commandments by DL Moody on the Fundamental Baptist Institute site.

Yes it is - I have made that clear in triplicate in my posts quoting him.

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest,

Yes he does say that -- but I still list him in the group of "Sunday sources" because I think he is fine with a "sunday Sabbath" all the same.

Hence my signature line on all my posts --


===========================================
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

==============================

D L Moody is not presenting Saturday as the sabbath for the Christian. He clearly calls Sunday the sabbath.

And I call him a "sunday source" as an example of BOTH sides agreeing to key Bible details not just one side.

So far you are the second person who chooses to post a strong affirmative of the point I am making then pat yourself on the back as if that disproves the point I make. But you can't disprove the point by strongly affirming it.

Not sure how this is escaping you.

You flip to badly to be believed. Here you say Sunday is an acceptable substitute for the sabbath you've madly been defending. You're argument is waste basket case.

Step 1. follow the line of argument in the post
Step 2. object to it if you like
Step 3. stop quoting "yourself" when trying to attribute something to me.

I never claim to " say Sunday is an acceptable substitute for the sabbath " - that is you quoting you.

D.L. Moody accepts such a "bent" Sabbath after the cross - but I never argue that this is one of the details that BOTH sides agree to.

Rather the obvious points I bring out are that
1. BOTH sides agree that Sabbath begin in Eden as the 7th day
2. BOTH sides agree that Adam and Eve kept the 7th day Sabbath
3. BOTH sides agree the Sabbath commandment applies to all mankind
4. BOTH sides agree all TEN of the TEN commandments are included in the moral law of God
5. BOTH sides agree that the moral law of God is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant known to Jeremiah Jer 31:31-33
6. BOTH sides agree that the Sabbath commandment remains binding on all mankind to this very day.

BUT the sides DIFFER in that one side claims the Sabbath commandment was 'bent' -- "Changed" at some point after the cross and the other side claims God never did any such thing.

So they both talk about a "change" after the cross but one side says God approved it and the other side says no such change can be found in scripture and it is merely a man-made-tradition that is flawed.

Here then are the obvious "details"

What is most common of all on the CF Forum for LAW and the Sabbath is to see the anti-Sabbath groups stuck in arguments against the first 6 points -- where "both sides" agree.

I missed nothing from your c&p job proving you've got nothing. You don't seem to be able to
respond properly to much of anything.

So THAT is your response to opposing your own sunday-affirming Bible scholarship on almost all of their points about the Sabbath commandment? really??? blame it all on 'me'??

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.

You seem to think I follow men. I didn't submit any Bible scholarship agreeing with keeping the covenant given to Israel. You make that claim and project it on me wrongfully.

Hint - You are the one who posts my SAME point that Moody is a Sunday-source when he makes all those agreeing statements affirming the TEN Commandments.

You say that AS IF that disproves the same point that I have already being making in that regard.

you are free to hold to your preferences despite the Bible and your own sunday-promoting Bible scholars who refute your arguments by affirming the obvious points I bring out:

1. BOTH sides agree that Sabbath begin in Eden as the 7th day
2. BOTH sides agree that Adam and Eve kept the 7th day Sabbath
3. BOTH sides agree the Sabbath commandment applies to all mankind
4. BOTH sides agree all TEN of the TEN commandments are included in the moral law of God
5. BOTH sides agree that the moral law of God is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant known to Jeremiah Jer 31:31-33
6. BOTH sides agree that the Sabbath commandment remains binding on all mankind to this very day.

BUT the sides DIFFER in that one side claims the Sabbath commandment was 'bent' -- "Changed" at some point after the cross and the other side claims God never did any such thing.

I always say you have the right to go out on that limb.
 
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BobRyan

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What? Aren't the Apostles life long blood line Jews? Sure they keep the sabbath.

And "every Sabbath" BOTH Jews and gentiles attend worship services in Acts 18:4 to hear "more Gospel preaching".

Isaiah 56:6-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

Bible details so obvious BOTH sides admit to them.

It just does not get any easier than this.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

But not Christians.Only if they join the covenant given to Israel. If they do they are considered as one born in the land and not a foreigner/stranger.Not in practice which is reality. You seem to live in a fantasy world.The verse says from...to. The verse says nothing about on.

Isaiah 56 did not say that gentiles must live in Israel to keep Sabbath and the Gentiles in Acts 13, Acts 17 and Acts 18 that are keeping Sabbath do not live in Israel.

Details matter.

More factual Bible details... less creative writing please.
 
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ace of hearts

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What you see is inconvenient details that you had hoped would vanish once ignored. It was better in your view than actually addressing the points raised. (for reasons that remain "illusive")
No I don't see inconvenient details. What I do see is your requirement to keep the law for salvation. There's no requirement for the Christian in the New Covenant to keep the any part of the Old Covenant.

Cutting to the chase your point is Christians are required top keep the law for salvation as your church teaches.
Indeed he is. Very easy for all who choose to read his statement to see the point.
What you're saying is DL Moody is teaching something he doesn't believe. Proof is DL Moody says very plainly he doesn't observe the 7th day sabbath. What he does say is people don't set aside Sunday as a holy day. IOW he applies some sabbath rules to Sunday. This is very unfortunate sloppy usage of words on his part. So the truth is he doesn't teach keeping the 7th day sabbath (Saturday) holy as you wrongly imply by his words.
Yes it is - I have made that clear in triplicate in my posts quoting him.

Yes he does say that -- but I still list him in the group of "Sunday sources" because I think he is fine with a "sunday Sabbath" all the same.
So you're goning to continue to misuase
DL Moody's words. Nothing new or out of habit for you.
Hence my signature line on all my posts --


===========================================
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

==============================



And I call him a "sunday source" as an example of BOTH sides agreeing to key Bible details not just one side.

So far you are the second person who chooses to post a strong affirmative of the point I am making then pat yourself on the back as if that disproves the point I make. But you can't disprove the point by strongly affirming it.
Affirmation and admitting what someone say aren't the same. DL Moody doesn't teach nor keep Saturday as a holy day.
Not sure how this is escaping you.



Step 1. follow the line of argument in the post
Step 2. object to it if you like
Step 3. stop quoting "yourself" when trying to attribute something to me.

I never claim to " say Sunday is an acceptable substitute for the sabbath " - that is you quoting you.
Yes you do in post 81. Here is the quote of your words from that post -
"Yes he does say that -- but I still list him in the group of "Sunday sources" because I think he is fine with a "sunday Sabbath" all the same."

D.L. Moody accepts such a "bent" Sabbath after the cross - but I never argue that this is one of the details that BOTH sides agree to.

Rather the obvious points I bring out are that
1. BOTH sides agree that Sabbath begin in Eden as the 7th day
2. BOTH sides agree that Adam and Eve kept the 7th day Sabbath
3. BOTH sides agree the Sabbath commandment applies to all mankind
4. BOTH sides agree all TEN of the TEN commandments are included in the moral law of God
5. BOTH sides agree that the moral law of God is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant known to Jeremiah Jer 31:31-33
6. BOTH sides agree that the Sabbath commandment remains binding on all mankind to this very day.

BUT the sides DIFFER in that one side claims the Sabbath commandment was 'bent' -- "Changed" at some point after the cross and the other side claims God never did any such thing.
So the reality is both sides don't agree. You do have some people and organizations making foolish statements.
So they both talk about a "change" after the cross but one side says God approved it and the other side says no such change can be found in scripture and it is merely a man-made-tradition that is flawed.
Both are incorrect.
Here then are the obvious "details"

What is most common of all on the CF Forum for LAW and the Sabbath is to see the anti-Sabbath groups stuck in arguments against the first 6 points -- where "both sides" agree.
So some are unlearned and repeating like parrots what they're told without question. If they studied the Scripture and truly understood what they say, they wouldn't be making such foolish statements.
So THAT is your response to opposing your own sunday-affirming Bible scholarship on almost all of their points about the Sabbath commandment? really??? blame it all on 'me'??
They aren't my Sunday affirming Bible scholars. In fact they prove they aren't scholars. D L Moody was a well respected and famous preacher. That aside his words aren't that of a scholar.
I find your logic "illusive" at that point.
Yeah we disagree.
Hint - You are the one who posts my SAME point that Moody is a Sunday-source when he makes all those agreeing statements affirming the TEN Commandments.
Not with my post. There are 10 commandments in your list, right?
You say that AS IF that disproves the same point that I have already being making in that regard.
The quote I provided disproves your point.
you are free to hold to your preferences despite the Bible and your own sunday-promoting Bible scholars who refute your arguments by affirming the obvious points I bring out:
Thank you for permission. I told you before and again they aren't my Sunday promoting Bible scholars.
 
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ace of hearts

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And "every Sabbath" BOTH Jews and gentiles attend worship services in Acts 18:4 to hear "more Gospel preaching".
Who attended religious activities on the sabbath? I read Jews and gentiles. I don't read Jews and Christians or gentile believing converts like you.
Isaiah 56:6-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.
Your reference specifically says the gentile who joins the Lord. There's only one way to join that covenant for the male and that's by physical circumcision. The he is no longer a stranger nor gentile but as one born in the land giving him full rights and obligation to the covenant given to Israel. Ex 12:48
Bible details so obvious BOTH sides admit to them.
Yes unthinking and uneducated religious people do.
It just does not get any easier than this.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
Sorry but I don't read about anything occurring "on" the sabbath.
Isaiah 56 did not say that gentiles must live in Israel to keep Sabbath and the Gentiles in Acts 13, Acts 17 and Acts 18 that are keeping Sabbath do not live in Israel.
But the Scripture does say they must be within thy gates. Ex 20:10.
Details matter.
Why yes they do. Read Ex 20:10 for those detailed requirements.
More factual Bible details... less creative writing please.
Yes please.
 
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klutedavid

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Now let's take a detailed look at the scriptures adding in the CONTEXT and look at what PAUL is referring to in the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures and their fulfillment in the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures.

COL 2:16-17 WITH CONTEXT ADDED FROM THE OLD TO THE NEW.

You claim that COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 is in reference to God's 4th commandment. Your error here is that you mix up the Shadow laws and sabbaths (plural) from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *DEUTERONOMY 31:26; EXODUS 24:7 with God's eternal LAW (10 Commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSLAMS 119:172. Let's see why by adding the CONTEXT back in that you left out.

Here are a few examples of where Paul is quoting from in the OLD TESTAMENT...

COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY [FEASTIVALS], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS <plural>:

PAUL'S references from the OLD TESTAMENT...

EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

There’s the meat and drink offerings for the monthly and annual festival sabbath days that Col.2 [16] was speaking of. This was not a weekly requirement for the 4th commandment of God’s Law (Exodus 20:8-11)

EZEKIEL 46 [6] And in the day of the NEW MOON it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish. [7] And he shall prepare a MEAT OFFERING, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.

LEVITICUS 23:4 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will also cause all her mirth to CEASE, HER [ISRAEL'S] FEAST DAYS, her NEW MOONS, and HER SABBATHS, and all HER [ISRAELS] SOLEMN FEASTS.

ISAIAH 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

wait for it back to the NEW...

HEBREWS 9:1-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

HEBREWS 10:1-9
[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE CERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
[6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
[9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

NOTE; the LAW in reference here is NOT God's 10 Commandments but the law of sin offereings from the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the LAW *DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26 from the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 (Please look at the attached scriptures)

Brother can you see the connections here between the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures Paul is referring to here? These are only a few scripture examples posted here. If your interested and wish to see more OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scripture examples for COL 2 please visit this thread click me.

So your understanding of COLOSSIANS 2:16 in regards to MEAT and DRINK here is incorrect as PAUL is discussing the MEAT AND DRINK offerings not what we are eating and drinking and also the CEREMONIAL sabbaths in the annual festivals given to ISRAEL in the OLD COVENANT NOT God's 10 commandments that give is the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is if broken in the NEW COVENANT *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4.

..............

COLOSSIANS 2:16 AND THE CEREMONIAL SABBATHS IN FEAST DAYS.

These ceremonial Sabbath days from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 were not God's 4th Commandment of the 10 Commandments but were connected to annual festivals and could fall on ANY DAY of the week depending on the yearly cycle (please read LEVITICUS 23;24-39).

These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbaths (plural) were connected to..

* Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24)
* Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32)
* Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39)

These "SPECIAL" Sabbath could fall on any day and were connected directly to these festivals that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus and God's plan of Salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

..............

Can you see what PAUL is talking about in COL 2 from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures? Sunday worship is a man-made teaching that has led many to break the commandment of God. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS says all those who KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the Commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

God's 4th commandment is one of the 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of SIN if broken. If we break ANY ONE of God's 10 commandments we commit SIN *JAMES 2:10-11. God's WORD says that ALL those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

There is not one scripture in all of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP SUNDAY as a Holy day. Who should we BELIEVE and FOLLOW, God or man *ACTS 5:29; ROMANS 3:4?

Let me know if you wish to discuss anything in detail here. Happy to do so. Thanks for sharing your thoughts but God's WORD disagrees with you.

Hope this helps.
I cannot see using your quotations from Leviticus, Numbers and Ezekiel. That the sabbath days mentioned in the OP (Colossians 2:16) is referring to annual Sabbath days.

Can you select one of those passages from Leviticus or Numbers and explain how you derive your interpretation?
 
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