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Does Colossians 2:16 refer to weekly Sabbaths?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by godenver1, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    This is one of the passages that you quoted and claimed are part of the shadow laws.

    Numbers 28:9-10
    Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.

    This passage outlines the sacrifices and offerings that are performed on every Sabbath day of the year. This passage is not talking about annual festival Sabbath days.

    I have no idea why you quoted Numbers 28:9?
     
  2. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Here is another passage that you quoted in order to support the idea, that Paul is talking about shadow laws.

    EZEKIEL 46 [6] And in the day of the NEW MOONit shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish. [7] And he shall prepare a MEAT OFFERING, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.

    Yes I agree that this passage concerns a monthly new moon sacrifice and offering. But what has that got to do with the 'Sabbath days' mentioned in Colossians 2:16?

    The text (Colossians 2:16) in the OP mentions three types of observances that the Jews had to conduct. Yearly festivals, monthly new moon observance and weekly sabbath days.

    Your two quotations (Numbers 28:9-10 and Ezekiel 46:6) certainly do not support an annual celebration.

    A new moon observance is monthly not yearly and this proves that Paul, is not talking about yearly observances.

    So why would you say?
    [These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbaths (plural) were connected to..

    * Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24)
    * Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32)
    * Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39)]
    There is no correlation between annual Jewish observances and your two quotations (Numbers 28:9-10 and Ezekiel 46:6).
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You should read the post you are quoting from David. EZEKIEL 45:17; NUMBERS 28:9 and LEVITICUS 23:4 as well as EZEKIEL 46:6; HOSEA 2:11; ISAIAH 1:10-14 was quoted in the earlier post you were quoting from to show what PAUL was referring to in COLOSSIANS 2:16 from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

    These scriptures are nearly word for WORD the same as COLOSSIANS 2:16. They are to show that PAULS reference here to sabbath <plural> (more then one) not Sabbath singular (God's 4th Commandment). These are in reference to the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT in reference to the ANNUAL JEWISH FEAST days.

    The within scripture CONTEXT from nearly all these scriptures that PAUL is refering to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures are the same as that quoted in COLOSSIANS 2:16 which is to the ANNUAL FEASTS of the LORD *LEVITICUS 23:4-13 and include; MEAT, or in DRINK offerings, FEASTS, NEW MOONS, and SABBATH DAYS <plural>

    Hope this helps.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Not really David. This is a longer post but will address your all your posts here and provide more scripture. NUMBERS 28:9-10 is quoted to show that links of the Sabbath SIN offerings to the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT and to the ANNUAL feast days of LEVITICUS 23. The SIN offerings of the OLD COVENANT were EVERYDAY of the week not only on the SEVENTH DAY of the WEEK and but under the OLD COVENANT twice on the SEVENTH DAY Sabbath of God's 4th commandment.

    These were daily offerings which were to be made with the daily sacrifices, and they are spoken of in many other places:

    LEVITICUS 23:13 "And its meat offering shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, ... and its drink offering shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin."

    LEVITICUS 23:18 "And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs ... with their meat offering, and their drink offerings."

    LEVITICUS 23:37 "a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day."

    NUMBERS 6:15 "and their meat offering, and their drink offerings."

    NUMBERS 6:17 "the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering."

    NUMBERS 15:4-5 "bring a meat offering of a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of oil. And the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering "

    NUMBERS 15:6 "Or for a ram, you shall prepare for a meat offering two tenth deals of flour mingled with the third part of an hin of oil."

    NUMBERS 15:7 "And for a drink offering you shall offer the third part of an hin of wine."

    NUMBERS 15:9 "Then shall he bring with a bullock a meat offering"

    NUMBERS 15:10 "And you shall bring for a drink offering half an hin of wine, ""

    NUMBERS 15:24 "with his meat offering, and his drink offering."

    NUMBERS 28:5 "And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil."

    NUMBERS 28:7-8 "And its drink offering shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place you shall cause the strong wine to be poured to the LORD for a drink offering." And the other lamb you shall offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as its drink offering, ..."

    These scriptures make it clear that often when the words "meat" and "drink" come together (KJV), they are referring to the Old Testament offerings. The same Hebrew word (Hb, מִנְחָה , Htr. minchah) is used to translate the two words "meat offering" in all of these scriptures, and it is obvious from the ingredients of flour and oil that it is a "food or grain offering" rather than a "meat offering". This is confirmed by its use elsewhere in scripture, for example:

    GENESIS 4:3 "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering to the LORD."

    The word translated "meat" (Colossians 2:16) (Gr. βρώσει, Gtr. brosei) is the dative case of "brosis", a noun which can also mean food, as it is so used elsewhere in the New Testament:

    2 CORINTHIANS 9:10 "bread for your food".

    Note 2: Now let us examine the other three things mentioned, "a holyday, a new moon, and a Sabbath." The word translated "holyday" (Gr. ἑορτῆς, Gtr. heortes) is the genitive singular of "heorte", a word which occurs 27 times in the New Testament, and is translated "feast" (26x), and "holyday" (1x). It means "feast". To understand what Paul was writing about here, we must again go back into the Old Testament and find where these three words, "feast, new moon, and Sabbath", occur together.

    1 CHRONICLES 23:31 "And to offer all burnt sacrifices to the LORD in the Sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded to them, continually before the LORD."

    2 CHRONICLES 2:4 "Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, ... for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God."

    2 CHRONICLES 31:3 "He appointed also ... the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD."

    NEHEMIAH 10:33 "For the showbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the Sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.

    EZEKIEL 46:6 "And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer to the LORD in the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish. And the meat offering shall be an ephah for a ram, and the meat offering for the lambs as he shall be able to give, and an hin of oil to an ephah. And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish."

    Just as the words "meat" and "drink" were referring to sacrifice offerings made on certain days, even so, looking at the above scriptures, it becomes obvious that the words "feast", "new moon", and "Sabbath" always come together when referring to offerings made on those days. In fact there is one scripture where all five things, meat, drink, feast, new moon, and Sabbath are all mentioned together:

    EZEKIEL 45:17 "And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the Sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel."

    Look at the order of these underlined words. They are in exactly the same order as Paul quoted them, making it obvious that this was exactly what Paul was referring to. In fact all of these offerings on each day are listed out for us to read:

    NUMBERS 28:1-8 Daily meat and drink offerings.
    NUMBERS 28:9-10 Sabbath day offerings.
    NUMBERS 28:11-18 New moon offerings.
    NUMBERS 28:17-25 The offerings for the feast of Unleavened Bread.
    NUMBERS 28: 26-31 The offerings for the feast of Weeks (or First-fruits).
    NUMBERS 29:1-6 The offerings for the feast of Trumpets.
    NUMBERS 29:7-11 The offerings on the day of Atonement.
    NUMBERS 29:12-40 The offerings for the feast of Tabernacles.

    Paul knew these scriptures, and he was referring to these offerings in Colossians 2:16, but as is habitual with New Testament Greek, he missed out a word: "offerings". This would not confuse the readers in those days, because the Old Testament was their bible, and they would know to look there to see what Paul was writing about, but it has allowed many to misinterpret what Paul was saying here. So let us look now at a literal translation:

    COLOSSIANS 2:16 "Therefore, do not let anyone judge you in food or in drink offerings, or offerings in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of Sabbaths."

    Note 3: So what "handwriting of ordinances" did Jesus blot out, "nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14)? We might argue that it couldn't refer to the ten commandments, because they were initially written by "the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18), not mans hand, and therefore they endure for ever (Psalm 89:34; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 24:35; 1 Peter 1:25). However, they were also written by Moses in the book of the law, so other scriptures will help to clarify:

    EPHESIANS 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances."

    The "law of commandments" referred to here is called a "law of carnal commandment" (Hebrews 7:16), and the "ordinances" referred to are called "carnal ordinances":

    HEBREWS 9:10 "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

    They are the ordinances to do with these sacrifices, some of which were man made:

    NEHEMIAH 10:32-33 "Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God;
    For the showbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the Sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God."

    They had made ordinances to cover the cost of these sacrifices. None of these offerings (or their ordinances) were necessary any more, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4). Jesus fulfilled them all, and he was the real offering:

    ISAIAH 53:10 "you shall make his soul an offering for sin."
    EPHESIANS 5:2 "Christ also ... has given himself for us an offering and sacrifice to God."
    HEBREWS 10:10 "we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
    HEBREWS 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever."
    HEBREWS 10:14 "For by one offering he has perfected for ever those who are sanctified."

    This is in total agreement with the next verse in Colossians:

    COLOSSIANS 2:17 "Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ."

    These sacrifices were all a shadow or type of the physical body of Jesus Christ, which was the true and only acceptable offering for sin, and which made all the sacrifices under the law obsolete:

    HEBREWS 10:10 "we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

    ..........

    CONCLUSION: When Jesus died on the cross he fulfilled all the Old Testament offerings and sacrifices for sin. His physical body, and his Soul (or life) were the ultimate sacrifice which was acceptable to God. Since then, none of the Old Testament sacrifices or offerings under the law, or the ordinances that go with them, are necessary any more. They were only a type or shadow of the body of Jesus Christ. This is what Paul is saying in this scripture (Colossians 2:14-17), and he is saying nothing at all about the Sabbath day itself being done away with, only the sacrifices which were being made on that day. The law written on stone or paper was the Old Covenant, which has been done away with, and what has replaced it is the New Covenant, with God's laws written in the heart of the believer (Hebrews 8:10; 10:16). The carnal interpretation has gone and been replaced by the spiritual, because "the law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14). However, as Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18), we cannot write off the Ten Commandments without contradicting Jesus. This example has again shown the importance of using all scripture, including the Old Testament, when trying to interpret New Testament teaching.
     
  5. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    I read the post and I do not see how you support your idea. For example your quotation from Numbers 28:9 has nothing to do with an annual festival. It merely describes the sacrifices and offerings made on every Sabbath day in Israel.
     
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Read the post you are quoting from. It is not my idea. It is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it. NUMBER 28:9 was posted to show the SHADOW laws connected to the SABBATHS in MEAT AND DRINK OFFERINGS of COLOSSIANS 2:16 but these were not only on the Sabbth but everyday of the week where the ANNUAL Feast sabbath were held. The scripture connection to the FEAST DAYS is also shown collectively with the other scriptures provided as the FEAST days have the same requirements for the SHADOW laws of SIN offerings. Read the next post provided above which has a lot more detailed scripture proof.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  7. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    This is where the problem exists.
    In Numbers 28:9-10, the sacrifices and offerings are prescribed on every Sabbath day. I agree with you there. But I do not agree that there is any link between the Sabbath days to the annual feasts.

    Paul mentions judging and Sabbath days in the verse from Colossians 2:14. Your interpretation is that Paul is talking specifically about ritual food and drink on the Sabbath days. Which is not what Numbers 29:8-10 is describing. The quotation from Numbers 29:8-10 is describing sacrifices and offerings on Sabbath days, not food and drink.

    You need to examine each quotation you cited one by one. Not post a jumble of passages from the Old Testament that just confuses everyone including yourself.
     
  8. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Once again LGW, your quotation from Numbers 28:9 is describing sacrifices, grain offering and it's drink offering. This has nothing to do with Colossians 2:16, judging according to food and drink. Your wrongly quoting from Numbers 28:9 to support your interpretation. Look I will print the verse.

    Numbers 28:9-10
    Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.

    These are ceremonial offerings on every Sabbath day and certainly not food and drink, you have been mislead.
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Sorry David God's WORD disagrees with you. You have been provided God's WORD. These are God's WORD not mine and there is no problem with it. Ignoring God's WORD does not make it disappear.

    Your confused brother. Colossians 2:14 does not mention the Sabbath. I have not said that Paul is talking specifically about ritual food and drink on the Sabbath days. You have not read the posts and the scriptures in them have you.
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your confused brother. I have only provided God's WORD and it is rightly divided. Maybe it is easier to ask you questions instead as you do not seem to be reading the posts you are responding to. Are the MEAT and DRINK offerings SHADOW laws of the OLD TESTAMENT or not? Are they connected to the JEWISH ANNUAL FEAST DAYS and EVERYDAY of the week?

    Your confused. The sin (Meat and Drink) offerings were for EVERYDAY of the week as shown in the scriptures porivded in post # 104 linked that you ignored above. An extra offering was provided on the Sabbath day. There were the regularly scheduled times for the burnt offering. Burnt offerings were to be made every day, in the morning and the evening *EXODUS 29:38-42; NUMBERS 28:3; CHRONICLES 2:4 etc)

    An additional burnt offering was to be offered up each Sabbath day *NUMBERS 28:9-10. Also, at the beginning of each month *NUMBERS 28:11, at the celebration of Passover on the 14th day of the 1st month NUMBERS 28:16, along with new grain offering at Feast of Weeks NUMBERS 28:27, at the feast of trumpets, on sacred day in the 7th month NUMBERS. 29:1, and for the celebration of the new moon *NUMBERS 29:6.

    These are the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT as shown in COLOSSIANS 2. Need more scripture?

    * Within CHAPTER CONTEXT of COLOSSIANS 2 linked
    * Within SCRIPTURE CONTEXT of COLOSSIANS 2 linked

    Are these ceremonial SHADOW laws YES/NO?

    Sorry brother God's WORD disagress with you and there is a lot of it.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  11. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Well that is not the case, your apology is not necessary.

    Also please refrain from using the word in capital format, the 'Word' is God (John 1). The scripture is not God so we never capitalize the word.
    This is just not true, you have been using the SDA interpretation of the scripture. You are out of alignment with the entire Christian world.
    I have no idea why you made that statement, your statement further blurs the issue at hand. I am quoting the scripture directly and not applying an interpretation. You are applying an interpretation without even realizing what you are doing.
    You want Colossians 2:16 and not 'Colossians 2:14'. To be talking about annual Sabbaths but Colossians is directly referring to the weekly Sabbath. That is why you go to such extraordinary lengths to support your interpretation.

    Food and drink (Colossians) and not sacrifices, grain and drink offerings (Numbers). There is no connection.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Not really brother. You have been provided with God's WORD. It is God's WORD not mine and it disagrees with you. You are free to do and believe as you wish. I do not judge you because we are all held accountable to God come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48. Ignoring God's WORD does not make it disappear. The religious teachers in the days of JESUS and the APOSTLES also claimed that JESUS was out of alignment with his own people. Only God's WORD is true brother and we should believe and FOLLOW it *ROMANS 3:4.

    God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. According to God's WORD, ALL those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith
    has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

    Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to UNKNOWINGLY break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

    There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day. Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

    In times of ignorance God winks at but now, <when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

    Hope this helps[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  13. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your claim is that a strawman argument that no one has made to you. As posted earlier NUMBERS 28:9 was posted only to show the SHADOW laws of MEAT and DRINK offerings. The other scriptures were provided to show that these some shadow laws were connected to the ANNUAL FEAST days.
    Well that statement has no truth in it. Happy to discuss any part of COLOSSIANS 2 as it is the CONTEXT of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17. This has already been posted and discussed elsewhere.

    COL 2:11-17 CHAPTER CONTEXT
    [11], In whom also you are CIRCUMCISION with the CIRCUMCISION made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    [12], Buried with him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the working of God, who has raised him from the dead.
    [13], And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    [14], BLOTTING OUT the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    [15], And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    [16], Let no man therefore judge you in FOOD AND DRINK, or in respect of a HOLY DAY [FESTIVAL], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:
    [17], Which are a SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

    CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COL 2:14 AND SUBJECT MATTER (COL 2:11-17)

    V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

    THE SHADOW LAWS FORETOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES….

    DEUTERONOMY 10:16 [16] CIRCUMCISE THERFORE THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

    DEUTERONOMY 30:6 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

    JEREMIAH 4:4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

    NOTE: NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

    ROMANS 2:25-29 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

    1 CORITHIANS 7:19 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

    This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

    HEBREWS 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS [NOTE: THE SHADOW OF CIRCUMCSION]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT. The SHADOW laws of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION from the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant are the within CHAPTER CONTEXT BEFORE COL 2:14

    Let's continue on through the chapter...

    COL 2:14 SCRIPTURE SUBJECT MATTER AND CONTENT.

    14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

    14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase> the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLESIASTICAL LAWS> that was against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7.

    V14
    Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

    The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA meaning THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant *EXODUS 24:7

    This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). Also the chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS ALONG WITH THE ORDINANCES OF v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

    ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

    DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

    DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

    (See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

    CONCLUSION; COL 2:14 is talking about the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

    Can you see your error here brother?
     
  14. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Will you stop claiming that I am confused, e.t.c, your wasting space and making your posts longer.
    Your cutting and pasting from some text book and that is obvious. Your not dividing the scripture as you claim and your not reading and checking your quotations.
    Constant accusations.
    How about we stop right here and check if what you said is correct. Here is what you just said!
    If we check Numbers 28:9-10 and I will print it below.

    Numbers 28:9-10
    Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.

    Did you read the quotation LGW, it does not say meat and drink offerings. The quotation precisely states, a burnt offering, grain offering and drink offering. See how I read the text very carefully, I encourage you to do the same.
    Yes they certainly are part of the wider scope of annual, monthly and weekly ritual practice in Israel. But this does not support the idea that Paul is referring to annual Sabbaths in Colossians 2:16. I will even quote from Colossians.

    2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or Sabbath days.

    See how Paul says 'food', this has nothing to do with burnt offerings. Paul's mention of 'drink' also is unrelated to a drink offering.
    Your misquoting again, burnt offering, grain offering, and drink offerings. Not meat and drink!

    I have not ignored anything that you cut and pasted in your post.
    Burnt offerings that took place on every Sabbath day are indeed ceremonial. But they are not meat and drink. Nor is there any connection between Numbers and Colossians 2:16.
     
  15. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    You persist in your error, not meat and drink.
    Rather burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings.
    Why talk about a long list of quotations when we can address one of the quotations and fix the problem.
    What LGW?

    Are you claiming that Numbers 28:9 even mentions food and drink?
    Your not happy at all to discuss Colossians 2:16. All you do is cut and paste from the SDA handbook. If you bothered to read your quotations you would realize your mistakes.

    Food and drink is not burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings.
     
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Not at all brother. I am posting from my own private prayerful study of God's WORD. These are Gods' WORD not my words. In response you post your words which are not God's WORD and try and make strawman arguments no one is arguing about. Who should we BELIEVE and FOLLOW you or God? Only God's WORD is true brother and we should believe and FOLLOW it *ROMANS 3:4

    The scriptures provided to you clearly show that all the offerings are SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. Once again as shown in the previous posts to you these are God's WORD not mine so your argument is with God not me.
    Well that is not true David. Your ignoring all the collective scriptures that were provided in an earlier post. These scriptures make it clear that often when the words "meat" and "drink" come together (KJV), they are referring to the Old Testament offerings. The same Hebrew word (Hb, מִנְחָה , Htr. minchah) is used to translate the two words "meat offering"

    The OLD TESTAMENT is written in HEBREW and translated into the GREEK. The HEBREW WORD for SABBATH is SABBATH SHABBATH שׁבּת (H7676) Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath: - (+ every) sabbath.

    The GREEK translation of the HEBREW word SABBATH SHABBATH שׁבּת is σάββατον; SABBATON; sab'-bat-on Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

    NOTE: The application of SABBATON from the GREEK translation of SHABBATH has a wider application than merely GOD'S 4th Commandment or SEVENTH DAY. It also includes ANY DAY OF WEEKLY REPOSE FROM SECULAR WORK. The use of the word SABBATON is not retricted only to the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH of God's 4th Commandment. It can also mean the intervals between the SABBATH depending on the context it is applied in also ANY DAY of the week no work is done. Therefore as the GREEK word has many meanying and applications the CONTEXT of how the GREEK word is used determines the correct definition.

    This means ALL the annual feast days that were not the SEVENTH DAY but where no work was to be done are also translated as SABBATON.

    These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbaths (plural) were connected to..

    * Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24)
    * Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32)
    * Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39)

    These "SPECIAL" Sabbath could fall on any day and were connected directly to these festivals that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus and God's plan of Salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

    ................

    The within scripture and chapter CONTEXT is where we then must determine the correct application and meaning of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 which is in reference to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

    COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY [FEASTIVALS], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS <plural>:

    PAUL'S within scriptures CONTEXT and use of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 is in reference to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

    EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

    NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.

    ISAIAH 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your NEW MOONS and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

    LEVITICUS 23:4 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

    HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will also cause all her mirth to CEASE, HER [ISRAEL'S] FEAST DAYS, her NEW MOONS, and HER SABBATHS, and all HER [ISRAELS] SOLEMN FEASTS.

    wait for it back to the NEW...

    HEBREWS 9:1-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    HEBREWS 10:1-9
    [1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    [3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    [4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
    [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
    [6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
    [7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
    [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
    [9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

    NOTE; the LAW in reference here is NOT God's 10 Commandments but the law of sin offereings from the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the LAW *DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26 from the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 (Please look at the attached scriptures)

    Your use of the GREEK leave out the context of application and word use that PAUL is writing about from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures which are the sacrificial SIN offereings and JEWISH annual festivals that where shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

    Can you see your error here brother? Ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    There is no error in the scriptures provided showing what the MEAT and DRINK offerings are referring to in the Shadow laws of the OLD COVENANT as referred to in COLOSSIANS 2:16-17. The OLD testament scriptures were provided that show what PAUL is referencing from the OLD COVENANT that is fulfilled in the NEW. Your persistant refusual to acknowledge this point from Gods WORD is noted. You are free to believe as you wish we all answer only to God come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.
    The scriptures are provided to show the detail.
    No not at all. I have already stated that NUMBERS 26:9 is referring to MEAT and DRINK offering as quoted in COLOSSIANS 2:16.

    NUMBERS 28:9 [9], And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
    There you go making false claims again and strawman arguments no one is arging about. Where did I ever post that FOOD and DRINK is burnt offerings grain and grain and drink offerings? If I have never made such claims why pretend that I have? If I was not happy to discuss COLOSSIANS 2:16 why am I posting on it or making threads about it? Scriture support provided in the linked posts below in this thread alone.

    *COLOSSIANS 2:16 within scripture and chapter context here linked.
    *COLOSSIANS 2:16 within scripture references to PAUL'S OLD TESTAMENT scriptures linked.
    *FOOD and DRINK offerings here.

    Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you and there is a lot of it.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  18. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    How about you quote correctly.

    Colossians 2:16 does not say 'Meat and Drink'.
    The Koine Greek says, eating and drink, or if you prefer, food and drink. Strongs concordance if that is what you choose, the correct translation is food.

    How about you get the OP scripture correctly translated first.

    The Koine Greek will not permit the word meat as a translation.
    It is not a case of what I may believe, it is what Paul has said in Colossians 2:16.

    Paul does not say meat and drink, Paul is talking about people being judged by what they eat.
    That's better LGW, the word scripture is much better than saying, God's Word.
    A persistent error on your behalf.

    Burnt offering, grain offering and drink offering.
    There is no relationship to eating and drinking.
    You have been shown to be wrong with your translations.
    This translation is also incorrect.

    Two tenth deals of flour is not a meat offering.
    That is exactly what you are doing.

    Your faulty translation is giving you the impression that there is an association between
    Colossians 2:16, meat and drink and Numbers 28:9. Which there is not.

    Paul is not discussing shadow laws in Colossians 2:16. Paul is directly addressing judgments based on the observance of Jewish festivals, new moon rituals and Sabbath days.

    If Paul was addressing the Colossians about what you call shadow laws, then Paul would have said so. Paul does not mention shadow laws, you are the one that interprets Paul's statement as addressing shadow laws.
    That is your erroneous interpretation LGW. A careful reading of Colossians 2:16 is about eating and drinking and not burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings.
    The whole lot was erroneous because you have been taught a connection that does not exist.
    You need to do some serious reading using other translations and checking the Koine Greek. Accept nothing, believe no one, you must do your own research.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Well that has no truth in it. Your confused brother let's look at the scriptures...

    COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16], Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, OR IN DRINK or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days [KJV]

    It is very clear what PAUL is quoting from here...

    EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

    LEVITICUS 23:4 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

    NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.

    ISAIAH 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your NEW MOONS and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

    As shown above brother God's WORD disagrees with you. You provide your own words over God's WORD. Paul is referring to the shadow laws of MEAT and DRINK offerings connected to the ANNUAL FEASTS and shadow sabbath days as shown word for word in EZEKIEL 45:17 and other scriptures. You simply quote your own words over God's WORD. Who should we believe you or God *ROMANS 3:4. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS says those who knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

    Nope not at all. The error is on your behalf brother as already shown through God's WORD. We have looked at the within scripture and chapter context here click me. We have looked also at the MEAT and DRINK offerings all through the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures here click me as well at the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures PAUL is referring to here click me. Ignoring God's WORD brother does not make it dissappear. God's WORD as shown through the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures show that the translation is correct.
    The post provided you brother on the chapter and scripture context of COLOSSIANS 2 (here click me), already addresses this section of your post with a detailed scripture reply. Your response is to ignore God's WORD and the scriptures in it. These scriptures show that the context of the shadow laws *COLOSSIANS 2:17 is the laws in ORDINANCES *COLOSSIANS 2:11-16 from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7. Paul says these were Shadow laws giving the examples of circumcision, laws in ordinances written in the book, meat and drink offerings, feast days and sabbaths plural all connected to the annual feasts from the Mosaic book of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 this is also discussed in HEBREWS 10.

    Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  20. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hold your horses LGW, I do not recognize that translation.

    Colossians 2:16 (Net Bible)
    Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days.

    Colossians 2:16 (New American Standard Bible)
    Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

    Colossians 2:16 (English Standard Version)
    Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

    Colossians 2:16 (New International Version)
    Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

    Is it ''food" or is it "meat"?

    Let's see which translation is correct.

    what you eat
    βρώσει (brōsei)
    Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
    Strong's Greek 1035: (a) abstr: eating, (b) food, a meal, (c) rust. From the base of bibrosko; eating; by extension food.

    Strongs says it's eating, by extension food. So where do you get 'meat' from?

    Your translation is erroneous.
    Paul did not say what you think Paul said.

    Paul is talking about food and drink, not meat and drink.
    So the passage from Ezekiel is a misquotation.

    Even if it was correct this has no bearing on Colossians 2:16.
    That is the Passover ritual and the feast of unleavened bread, what has that got to do with anything?
    So why do you celebrate the Sabbath?
    God has rejected the external observance of Sabbaths.
    You are using an inferior translation.

    You are reading a Bible that a king ordered.

    I am using the scripture translated correctly, I have no opinion on a dubious interpretation.
    I have proved that Paul said 'food' or 'eating' and not meat. The error beyond any doubt is in your translation and the subsequent interpretation. What I am saying is the text says one thing and you attempt to make it say something else (interpretation).
    Nonsense.
    You are twisting the scripture to support a commandment, the fourth. That is all that matters in your church, one single commandment. You have no other reason to be on CF.
     
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