Does Colossians 2:16 refer to weekly Sabbaths?

[BobRyan]

Yes, and I'm asking you to prove why you think Colossains is referring to a "shadow Sabbath".

Col 2
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

New Moon, and the annual Sabbaths are "shadows" of the future reality - Christ.

"Sacrifices and offerings" of Heb 10:4-12 end with the sacrifice of Christ.
"Christ our Passover has been slain" 1 Cor 5

The annual Sabbaths with their sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.

That is all I want. I know the Sabbath was created before the Mosaic law, there's just no biblical evidence to believe it was observed before the Mosaic law (Nehiamiah 9:14).

There is no text in the OT saying "Do not take God's name in vain" before Sinai Ex 20:7.
Genesis 4 -- murder is 'sin' even before Exodus 20 saying that Murder is sin.
Genesis 7 - clean vs unclean animals even before Lev 11 defining clean vs unclean animals.

Ex 20:11 pointing to Gen 2:1-3 as the time "when" Sabbath is set aside as a holy day.

Ex 16 the Sabbath was to be observed before Ex 20:8-11 Sabbath in stone.

Mark 2:27 "Sabbath made" for mankind.
Ex 20:11 Sabbath was "made" in Eden

=======================

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

And Sabbath in Eden

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[ace of hearts]

Had to go last night a little earlier as it was late my time but wanted to give a more detailed reply to anyone that my be interested in God's WORD, so this will be broken down into some smaller posts for those interested in the detail.



The OLD TESTAMENT is written in HEBREW and translated into the GREEK. The HEBREW WORD for SABBATH is SABBATH SHABBATH שׁבּת (H7676) Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath: - (+ every) sabbath.

The GREEK translation of the HEBREW word SABBATH SHABBATH שׁבּת is σάββατον; SABBATON; sab'-bat-on Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

NOTE: The application of SABBATON from the GREEk translation of SHABBATH has a wider application than merely GOD'S 4th Commandment or SEVENTH DAY. It also includes ANY DAY OF WEEKLY REPOSE FROM SECULAR ACOCATIONS (work). The use of the word SABBATON is not retricted only to the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH of God's 4th Commandment. It can also mean the intervals between the SABBATH depending on the context it is applied in also ANY DAY of the week no work is done. Therefore as the GREEK word has many meanying and applications the CONTEXT of how the GREEK word is used determines the correct definition.

Do you really believe this when referring to MK 2:27-28? I doubt it.

 

[ace of hearts]

Ok the above post is addressing the use of the GREEK word SABBATON and application and word use in the WITHIN scriptures CONTEXT applied to COLOSSIANS 2:16-17. Let's now look at the within CHAPTER CONTEXT leading up to COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 to determine the topic of conversation.

COL 2:11-17 CHAPTER CONTEXT
[11], In whom also you are CIRCUMCISION with the CIRCUMCISION made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12], Buried with him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the working of God, who has raised him from the dead.
[13], And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14], BLOTTING OUT the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15], And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16], Let no man therefore judge you in FOOD AND DRINK, or in respect of a HOLY DAY [FESTIVAL], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:
[17], Which are a SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COL 2:14 AND SUBJECT MATTER (COL 2:11-17)

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

THE SHADOW LAWS FORETOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES….

DEUTERONOMY 10:16 [16] CIRCUMCISE THERFORE THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30:6 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4:4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

NOTE: NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2:25-29 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORITHIANS 7:19 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS [NOTE: THE SHADOW OF CIRCUMCSION]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT. The SHADOW laws of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION from the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant are the within CHAPTER CONTEXT BEFORE COL 2:14

Let's continue on through the chapter...

COL 2:14 SCRIPTURE SUBJECT MATTER AND CONTENT.

14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase> the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLESIASTICAL LAWS> that was against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7.

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA meaning THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant *EXODUS 24:7

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). Also the chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS ALONG WITH THE ORDINANCES OF v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

CONCLUSION; COL 2:14 is talking about the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

Can you see your error here brother?

Anything to draw people away from the text.

 

[ace of hearts]

I've read (most of) the posts above. I'm not sure you are understanding my point.

My point is this: the most simple reading of Colossians 2:16 would be to read the word "Sabbaths" and believe it means weekly Sabbath, as that is the obvious reading. If you believe it means something else, you have to prove it. Again, I'm not interested in a debate about 'God's Law' versus 'Moses's Law'. If you believe that the word 'Sabbath' in Colossians 2:16 means something other than weekly Sabbath, then you need scripture to justify it. I'm not interested in what Exodus or Deuteronomy has to say, unless you can show how it directly relates to Colossians 2:16.

He understands alright. What he's saying is you're wrong because you don't believe like him.

 

[ace of hearts]

yes Lev 23 has the annual Sabbaths and also annual feasts that are not Sabbaths.

The weekly sabbath is the first holy day in Lev 23:3.

 

[ace of hearts]

And Jesus said "do not judge" Matthew 7.

Same rule before the cross as after.

Why are you judging and condemning?

 

[BobRyan]

Paul doesn't say "let no one pass judgment with regard to burnt offerings/blowing trumpets/sacrificing rams on a festival sabbath".

And Jesus said "do not judge" Matthew 7.

Same rule before the cross as after.

Why are you judging and condemning?

The mere reference to the text...is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.

 

[BobRyan]

In this other Col 2 thread we see that the OP gives some clarity on the subject of Col 2...

proof for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Acts 15:1-2 the historic context of some folks 'making stuff up' and saying that one cannot be saved unless they comply with the made-up rules. In Col 2:14-15 Paul points out that salvation is through Christ who paid the debt of sin owed. Then Paul goes after all the various forms of making-stuff-up showing how it is condemned.

Col 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

============= Christ Himself condemned Bible-denying traditions of man

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

================= Accuser of the Brethren condemned

In Rev 12 we see the work of the "Accuser of the brethren".

In Matt 7 (pre-cross -- and law in full effect) Christ condemns judging others.

In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)


Col 2 is 0pposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command. - so it is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"

 

[Soyeong]

I think it does, as that is the most simplistic reading of the text, and there is nothing of great strength contextually to suggest otherwise.

Indeed it does. In Colossians 2:16-23 were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

 

[BobRyan]

Wednesday at 9:48 AM #48

 

[ace of hearts]

Indeed it does. In Colossians 2:16-23 were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

No it's clearly the 7th day keepers raising the issue. See Acts 15.

 

[Soyeong]

No it's clearly the 7th day keepers raising the issue. See Acts 15.

If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is not clear whether it is saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them. However, if we look at the context of the views of the people judging them as well as the theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have described those who were teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for his followers as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in verses 20-23, so Paul's issue was with human teachings and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity of the body, not with those teaching obedience to God.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. However, God's Law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and the reason that it requires all Jews to become circumcised was not in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose that God required it for, which was actually contrary to His purposes. So the Jerusalem Council upheld God's Law by correctly ruling against that requirement, and again you should not take something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying God.

 

[BobRyan]

No it's clearly the 7th day keepers raising the issue. See Acts 15.

Its clearly the 7th day keepers solving the issue - see Acts 15

 

[BobRyan]

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
...
In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. However, God's Law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and the reason that it requires all Jews to become circumcised was not in order to become saved .

Amen!

 

[ace of hearts]

If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is not clear whether it is saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them. However, if we look at the context of the views of the people judging them as well as the theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have described those who were teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for his followers as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in verses 20-23, so Paul's issue was with human teachings and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity of the body, not with those teaching obedience to God.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. However, God's Law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and the reason that it requires all Jews to become circumcised was not in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose that God required it for, which was actually contrary to His purposes. So the Jerusalem Council upheld God's Law by correctly ruling against that requirement, and again you should not take something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying God.

Paul isn't supporting teachers of the law in Colossians or any other of his letters.

 

[ace of hearts]

Its clearly the 7th day keepers solving the issue - see Acts 15

That's why they were successfully told no.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul isn't supporting teachers of the law in Colossians or any other of his letters.

So if you think that Paul spoke against obeying God and that God therefore spoke against obeying Paul (Deuteronomy 13:4-5), then it shouldn't be difficult for you to figure out which one has the higher authority, which one you ultimately answer to, and which one you should follow. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God commanded. However, the reality is that Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, so he never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's laws, but rather he said our faith upholds God's Law (Romans 3:31).

 

[BobRyan]

That's why they were successfully told no.

hint: all the Apostles in Acts 15 -- Sabbath keeping Christians.

 

[ace of hearts]

So if you think that Paul spoke against obeying God and that God therefore spoke against obeying Paul (Deuteronomy 13:4-5), then it shouldn't be difficult for you to figure out which one has the higher authority, which one you ultimately answer to, and which one you should follow. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God commanded. However, the reality is that Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, so he never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's laws, but rather he said our faith upholds God's Law (Romans 3:31).

I've no idea why you're projecting on me I think Paul is promoting sin except you're really trying to protect your law keeping requirement.

Paul is promoting neither concept of keeping or not keeping holy days. It plainly says -

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

It says in respect to/of meaning about. It doesn't say anything about the custom of which day if any or how it's kept.

The problem you have is a failure to recognize and accept Christians have a new and different covenant and the carrying over parts of the previous covenant you think are required for salvation in the new covenant. I can't do anything with your unbelief and rejection of the new covenant. That's your choice.

Then I have to deal with your implication Paul is a false teacher. You simply don't believe Paul was inspired by God to write what he did. God chose Paul to do as he did according to Acts 9 where Ananias got in an argument with God over the issue. God told Ananias -

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

You illegitimately place Moses over Paul. Paul is providing details about the New Covenant. Yes that's different and contrary to the previous covenant just like it was promised. NTL it's from the same God Moses spoke to. You have to deal with a false doctrine that God never changes. While it's true God never changes, He changed the rules as He intended before creating the earth. Reading the Bible one easily sees progression - line upon line or precept upon precept. Isa 28:10 You can argue with God about His program all you want.

You can't convince me to disregard Paul's writings. Christians call them Scripture - Holy Writ. Religious people reject anything they don't like and make up their own rules.

Rom 3:31 doesn't say we're to live by the law, when 7:6 says we're now delivered from the law or that we're dead to the law in Rom 6.

 

[ace of hearts]

hint: all the Apostles in Acts 15 -- Sabbath keeping Christians.

No. Paul jumped all over Peter for living like a gentile. Besides that those Apostles you speak about said noting about a requirement to keep the sabbath anywhere in Scripture.