Do you overcome before or after being saved?

[Mr. M]

It's not as you think. God only saves his elect. So conviction happens when the saved wander from the path, working repentance in them. He convicts the reprobate to document the sin and the just degree he punishes them for in eternity.

The Gospel convicts all to opposite outcomes.
2 Corinthians 2:
14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses
the fragrance of His knowledge in every place.
15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among
those who are perishing.
16 To the one we are the aroma of death to death, and to the other the aroma of life to life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God,
we speak in the sight of God in Christ.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Is it possible to have one without the other ??

Personally I believe that one who is truely born again has given up their free will for His will.

That's a really good point. I was born again before I knew anything about Lordship. When I first heard it preached (by Brother Andrew) I saw that it was necessary. A lot of evangelism is incomplete, unfortunately. Thank God for His mercy and grace!

 

[Dave L]

Dave... frankly you don't know what I think.

You seem to be the master of the 'straw man' arguing with yourself...

You have conceded that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement including the unsaved.

No law, no sin. The Holy Spirit convicts all of sin by the law written in their heart. But he gives some new hearts that hate sin and love righteousness. Only then do they live holy lives.

 

[Dave L]

What causes the elect to behave righteously to begin with?

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

The traits are the same for the new birth and circumcised hearts.

 

[fhansen]

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

The traits are the same for the new birth and circumcised hearts.

So would you say that the justified are, necessarily, truly made just/righteous rather than righteousness strictly be imputed to them, with no internal change? And is it merely possible for the elect to walk uprightly, or is it impossible for them not to do so? Is there a choice at all involved, IOW?

 

[Dave L]

So would you say that the justified are, necessarily, truly made just/righteous rather than righteousness strictly be imputed to them, with no internal change? And is it merely possible for the elect to walk uprightly, or is it impossible for them not to do so? Is there a choice at all involved, IOW?

Salvation is a change of heart that is purely supernatural and happens before the will becomes involved.

 

[fhansen]

Salvation is a change of heart that is purely supernatural and happens before the will becomes involved.

Well, that's an interesting not to mentioned relatively novel take on the matter of salvation-and not what the earliest churches in both the east and west held to dating from their reception of the good news at the beginning. Anyway Scripture is rife with admonitions about things that must be done, and continued to be done, after justification:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

And no one has absolute, 100% assurance about their salvation to begin with, nor can they predict whether or not they will persevere to the end, regarding another instruction, warning, and encouragement given to believers.

 

[Dave L]

Well, that's an interesting not to mentioned relatively novel take on the matter of salvation-and not what the earliest churches in both the east and west held to dating from their reception of the good news at the beginning. Anyway Scripture is rife with admonitions about things that must be done, and continued to be done, after justification:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

And no one has absolute, 100% assurance about their salvation to begin with, nor can they predict whether or not they will persevere to the end, regarding another instruction, warning, and encouragement given to believers.

You can live after the flesh only unless God supernaturally gives you a new heart.

 

[Mr. M]

Anyway Scripture is rife with admonitions about things that must be done, and continued to be done, after justification:

1 Peter 1:5. who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation,
ready to be revealed in the last time. AKA The Resurrection From The Dead

 

[fhansen]

You can live after the flesh only unless God supernaturally gives you a new heart.

Yes, and you can reject the transplant at any point down the road. God is in the business of patiently cultivating wills that align with His own will, hearts that remain turned towards Himself, since Eden-that's why we have all those centuries of cultivation between the Fall and Christ's advent, because God won't force the human will to love Him either corporately or as individuals. He wants our wills involved, for our own good. Adam willfully turned away from God and God seeks hearts which willfully turn back to Him as He employs His revelation and grace to enable that. Love always involves choice even as it's also a gift-and love is the very definition of the righteousness that causes us to walk in His ways as we remain in Him, living by the Spirit IOW:
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

 

[Dave L]

Yes, and you can reject the transplant at any point down the road. God is in the business of patiently cultivating wills that align with His own will, hearts that remain turned towards Himself, since Eden-that's why we have all those centuries of cultivation between the Fall and Christ's advent, because God won't force the human will to love Him either corporately or as individuals. He wants our wills involved, for our own good. Adam willfully turned away from God and God seeks hearts which willfully turn back to Him as He employs His revelation and grace to enable that. Love always involves choice even as it's also a gift-and love is the very definition of the righteousness that causes us to walk in His ways as we remain in Him, living by the Spirit IOW:
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

John says you cannot do this.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Also, you cannot have faith God saved you if you think you can be lost.

 

[fhansen]

1 Peter 1:5. who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation,
ready to be revealed in the last time. AKA The Resurrection From The Dead

Yes, this is where Peter speaks of the "living hope" that we as believers should have-of eternal life. And this virtue of hope has historically been understood as more than "just" hope, but as a sort of trust and confidence as well, based on God's own trustworthiness and promises along with the fruit that should be observable in our lives. Anyway, children of God are expected to walk like children of Gods-and all the admonitions and encouragements for doing so are given due to the real possibility of us failing to live like His children, and losing our familial status in the process.

 

[fhansen]

John says you cannot do this.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Also, you cannot have faith God saved you if you think you can be lost.

That's one part warning, one part encouragement. John said it because he knew of our weaknesses and wouldn't have bothered just to make a theological statement about "the way things are". It echoes the Lord in John 15,
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

 

[Dave L]

That's one part warning, one part encouragement. John said it because he knew of our weaknesses and wouldn't have bothered just to make a theological statement about "the way things are". It echoes the Lord in John 15,
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

3/4 washed out in the parable of the sower. But those who remained knew they had salvation.

 

[Mr. M]

John says you cannot do this.

No he does not. He and Jesus use the word 'abide' a couple of dozen times. If you abide in the Spirit,
you will not sin.

for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Get in the flesh and see what happens. Or was it for no reason that He taught 70X7

 

[Mr. M]

3/4 washed out in the parable of the sower. But those who remained knew they had salvation.

Why 3 of 4? There are four possibilities presented. The results depend on the soil. Could be 1/100000000
Consider the diligence of the sower.

 

[Dave L]

No he does not. He and Jesus use the word 'abide' a couple of dozen times. If you abide in the Spirit,
you will not sin.

Get in the flesh and see what happens. Or was it for no reason that He taught 70X7

John says God won't let you habitually sin. You cannot be saved if you think you can lose your salvation. Why? Because we are saved by faith.

 

[Dave L]

Why 3 of 4? There are four possibilities presented. The results depend on the soil. Could be 1/100000000
Consider the diligence of the sower.

Stick with the scripture, that's what it says.

 

[Mr. M]

John says God won't let you habitually sin.

Where does he say that? Or are we going to have to get into the Greek grammar?
When I am under the anointing, sin is far from me, and I can say "Satan has no place in me".

 

[Dave L]

Where does he say that? Or are we going to have to get into the Greek grammar?
When I am under the anointing, sin is far from me, and I can say "Satan has no place in me".

You cannot sin if God saved you. Any habitual sin will end one way or another.