Do you overcome before or after being saved?

[Mr. M]

And I believe that is Gods doing in us as my previous post was about. We may just agree to disagree on this but I'm not 100% sure. We could be talking past each other on this.

What I am saying is that overcoming is more than believing unto salvation, (day 1) it is
"the obedience of faith"
"doing the Will of the Father"
"bearing fruit"
I have heard the assurance of salvation described as "knowing that if you die tonight, you will go
to heaven". I have only heard of someone coming to salvation, then dying, on deathbed conversions.
The rest must go out and learn to walk as He walked. No one has the full picture of course, but
what I have seen first hand is that there are churches that emphasize altar calls, "getting people
saved by making decisions for Christ" as some overall perspective of "bringing in the endtime harvest".
They tend to be very weak in discipleship, as if getting people saved is the end all. That could be their
calling, like I said, we aren't all knowing, but I have seen the number of people who go right back into
the world in short order like the proverbial "dog returning to vomit, and swine to wallow in the mire",
and I will dare to say definitively that is not the overcoming life. Many say, that just proves they weren't
really saved in the first place, but Jesus said "offenses will surely come, but woe to those by whom
are those offenses". If we judge only ourselves, we will not be judged. I desire to be found as one
who nourished the sheep, until they are able to "go in and out and find their pasture"

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What I am saying is that overcoming is more than believing unto salvation, (day 1) it is
"the obedience of faith"
"doing the Will of the Father"
"bearing fruit"
I have heard the assurance of salvation described as "knowing that if you die tonight, you will go
to heaven". I have only heard of someone coming to salvation, then dying, on deathbed conversions.
The rest must go out and learn to walk as He walked. No one has the full picture of course, but
what I have seen first hand is that there are churches that emphasize altar calls, "getting people
saved by making decisions for Christ" as some overall perspective of "bringing in the endtime harvest".
They tend to be very weak in discipleship, as if getting people saved is the end all. That could be their
calling, like I said, we aren't all knowing, but I have seen the number of people who go right back into
the world in short order like the proverbial "dog returning to vomit, and swine to wallow in the mire",
and I will dare to say definitively that is not the overcoming life. Many say, that just proves they weren't
really saved in the first place, but Jesus said "offenses will surely come, but woe to those by whom
are those offenses". If we judge only ourselves, we will not be judged. I desire to be found as one
who nourished the sheep, until they are able to "go in and out and find their pasture"

Agreed but its impossible to do without the enabling power and work of the Holy Spirit in us and this happens as we yield our will to His will in obedience. The fruit comes from us abiding in Him and He produces that fruit in us which is evidence in Galatians 5:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 13. His love seen in and through us to a world that so desperately needs Him and we become the salt and light reflecting Him to others. When we love God with all of our heart, mind and soul then we are able to love others as He would love them.

 

[Mr. M]

Agreed but its impossible to do without the enabling power and work of the Holy Spirit in us and this happens as we yield our will to His will in obedience. The fruit comes from us abiding in Him and He produces that fruit in us which is evidence in Galatians 5:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 13. His love seen in and through us to a world that so desperately needs Him and we become the salt and light reflecting Him to others. When we love God with all of our heart, mind and soul then we are able to love others as He would love them.

Exactly. Abiding. Overcoming by the power of God, not our own sufficiency. Isn't that what Paul is saying:
Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Exactly. Abiding. Overcoming by the power of God, not our own sufficiency. Isn't that what Paul is saying:
Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I thought we might of been talking past each other became I know from past experience with you we are on the same page most of the time. So its good to continue to exchange our thoughts and ideas for clarity.

 

[Mr. M]

I thought we might of been talking past each other became I know from past experience with you we are on the same page most of the time. So its good to continue to exchange our thoughts and ideas for clarity.

I have come to acknowledge that one of the Lord's purposes being served in true Christian fellowship
and productive, edifying discussion, is to allow us to improve and polish the profession of our faith,
"as iron sharpens iron". Since the topic is overcoming, I have held back, waiting for this:
Revelation 12:11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

 

[Mr. M]

by the word of their testimony,

How many times have you heard this testimony:
20 years ago I was a lost, filthy sinner, but the Lord saved me Halleluyah!
Okay, so what have the last 20 years been like?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

How many times have you heard this testimony:
20 years ago I was a lost, filthy sinner, but the Lord saved me Halleluyah!
Okay, so what have the last 20 years been like?

40 for me

 

[nolidad]

Yes. And the clear context is they were warned they are a DEAD church, and need to REPENT, because MOST of them had DEFILED their white robes, which in scripture, are the righteousness of the saints - thus were no longer righteous - (which explains why Jesus said that church IS DEAD), and he said that IF they repented and became overcomers, their names won’t be erased from the book of life.

The CONTEXT is indeed too clear to OBFUSCATE.

1. They were spiritually dead.
2. They were told to repent.
3. They weren’t righteous (because they had defiled their white robes, which are the righteousness of saints). Rev. 19:8
4.They were warned their names would be BLOTTED OUT of the book of life, unless they overcome (in context, by repenting of what they did that defiled their white robes).

Thus in context, overcoming is to be righteous and thus saved, and spiritually alive - but they in that church had become DEAD and had no righteousness, and were warned to repent.

Which refutes OSAS.

Shalom.

Wrong! The letter is to a church in general and not to people in particular.

Revelation 3
King James Version

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

There are three garments mentiond.

1Defiled garments
2. Undefiled garments
3. white raiment.

Only the saved are given the white raiment which corresponds to REv. 20 righteous robes.

There are also two books we need to pay attention to.

1. The book of the living
2. teh lambs book of life.

According to all teachings available, the book of the living is all names of people born and the Lambs book is all people born again. (simplified for space). The play of the construct in verse 5 is that they will not be killed, but added to teh lambs book and confessed by God.

Remember in Matt. 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"REligious people" didn't lose salvation, they never had it! That is these "Sardines"! LOL