Do you overcome before or after being saved?

[Mr. M]

Stick with the scripture, that's what it says.

Scripture doesn't say 3 out of four wash out. It says 3 out of 4 soils will not bear fruit. The good seed
always bears fruit on good soil. What if many churches are preaching "another Gospel", are they sowing
on bad soil, or are they sowing bad seed?

 

[Dave L]

Scripture doesn't say 3 out of four wash out. It says 3 out of 4 soils will not bear fruit. The good seed
always bears fruit on good soil. What if many churches are preaching "another Gospel", are they sowing
on bad soil, or are they sowing bad seed?

You are missing the point and hyping on grammar that's not too important. Wash out = fail.

 

[Mr. M]

I understand

Wash out = fail.

I am not hyping grammar (there was no reference to grammar), or missing the point. You are changing the point, for what reason I don't know. 3 out of 4 soils are unproductive does not mean 3 out of 4 people will fail. It means that there is only one good soil, which He explains. He does not elaborate
on the seed. I proposed a question that you ignored in your haste to inform me that I do not understand. Can bad seed bear fruit? Don't think so. The parable assumes good seed.
Do you assume "good seed" is being sown consistently in the way the Gospel is being preached today?

 

[Dave L]

I understand

I am not hyping grammar (there was no reference to grammar), or missing the point. You are changing the point, for what reason I don't know. 3 out of 4 soils are unproductive does not mean 3 out of 4 people will fail. It means that there is only one good soil, which He explains. He does not elaborate
on the seed. I proposed a question that you ignored in your haste to inform me that I do not understand. Can bad seed bear fruit? Don't think so. The parable assumes good seed.
Do you assume "good seed" is being sown consistently in the way the Gospel is being preached today?

The good soil is the new birth from whence faith grows. Whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[fhansen]

3/4 washed out in the parable of the sower. But those who remained knew they had salvation.

And all that tells us is that some will persevere; the elect are...the elect. Doesn't tell us who they are but it surely stands as a warning to persevere, strive, be vigilant, etc: to be good soil.

 

[nolidad]

Revelation 21:
6 And He said to me, “t is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life
freely to him who thirsts.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he shall be My son.

The moment we get saved- we become more than overcomers! That is our position and the declaration of God. Now in our daily experience, God is working in what He has declared us to be!

 

[chad kincham]

So someone who comes to saving faith by believing the gospel should be made aware that there
will be a test.

Yes, it’s called being an overcomer.

If you flunk, you haven’t overcame.

1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


Remember Jesus in Revelation warning the church at Sardis that they were a dead church, that they needed to repent, and that most of them had defiled their white robes ( which represent righteousness) and told them who were flunking the test, that those who overcome won’t have their names erased from the book of life.


Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

The moment we get saved- we become more than overcomers! That is our position and the declaration of God. Now in our daily experience, God is working in what He has declared us to be!

Then Jesus made a mistake saying what He said to the church at Sardis.

Got it.

(Not)

 

[nolidad]

Then Jesus made a mistake saying what He said to the church at Sardis.

Got it.

(Not)

Then you say Paul lied when he said we are more than overcomers! or maybe you are misunderstanding what overcoming means in the letter to Sardis. It means being saved.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Context determines what kind of overcoming is going on!

 

[chad kincham]

Then you say Paul lied when he said we are more than overcomers! or maybe you are misunderstanding what overcoming means in the letter to Sardis. It means being saved.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Context determines what kind of overcoming is going on!

Yes. And the clear context is they were warned they are a DEAD church, and need to REPENT, because MOST of them had DEFILED their white robes, which in scripture, are the righteousness of the saints - thus were no longer righteous - (which explains why Jesus said that church IS DEAD), and he said that IF they repented and became overcomers, their names won’t be erased from the book of life.

The CONTEXT is indeed too clear to OBFUSCATE.

1. They were spiritually dead.
2. They were told to repent.
3. They weren’t righteous (because they had defiled their white robes, which are the righteousness of saints). Rev. 19:8
4.They were warned their names would be BLOTTED OUT of the book of life, unless they overcome (in context, by repenting of what they did that defiled their white robes).

Thus in context, overcoming is to be righteous and thus saved, and spiritually alive - but they in that church had become DEAD and had no righteousness, and were warned to repent.

Which refutes OSAS.

Shalom.

 

[Dave L]

Yes. And the clear context is they were warned they are a DEAD church, and need to REPENT, because MOST of them had DEFILED their white robes, which in scripture, are the righteousness of the saints - thus were no longer righteous - (which explains why Jesus said that church IS DEAD), and he said that IF they repented and became overcomers, their names won’t be erased from the book of life.

The CONTEXT is indeed too clear to OBFUSCATE.

1. They were spiritually dead.
2. They were told to repent.
3. They weren’t righteous (because they had defiled their white robes, which are the righteousness of saints). Rev. 19:8
4.They were warned their names would be BLOTTED OUT of the book of life, unless they overcome (in context, by repenting of what they did that defiled their white robes).

Thus in context, overcoming is to be righteous and thus saved, and spiritually alive - but they in that church had become DEAD and had no righteousness, and were warned to repent.

Which refutes OSAS.

Shalom.

How can a person be saved if they believe they can be lost? Salvation is based on believing God saved you.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes, it’s called being an overcomer.

If you flunk, you haven’t overcame.

1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


Remember Jesus in Revelation warning the church at Sardis that they were a dead church, that they needed to repent, and that most of them had defiled their white robes ( which represent righteousness) and told them who were flunking the test, that those who overcome won’t have their names erased from the book of life.


Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Shalom.

please explain in your own words what overcome means and how it is done in a believers life and give us the "practical " application of it, thanks !

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Overcoming is after salvation, and there’s no guarantee we will be an overcomer.

Scripture declares Salvation is of the Lord !

Mans inability to come to God apart from Him

John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Rom. 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."

Eph. 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

God must enable man to come to Him. It is the work of God !

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 6:28-29, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'"

Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 8:29–30, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Eph. 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."

Eph. 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

2 Thess. 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

2 Tim. 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

2 Tim. 2:24-25, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."

1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."


The Lord saves us and keeps us saved by His Grace

Faith comes by Gods grace as per:

Ephesians 2:8. Faith alone means apart from works , not grace. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Philippians 1:29- "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

John 1:13- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


Salvation is of the Lord. Its all His doing by His grace, even being granted by God the ability to believe. Our human decision to come to Christ comes from God, not by human decision but born of God.


God saves us and keeps us saved.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Philippians 1:6-
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.


1 Corinthians 1:8
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:27,
"John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44,
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65,
"And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father

Ephesians 2:4:5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

God Grants Repentance

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:8
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Its the work of God from beginning to end. I am sure of this, that he who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

hope this helps !!!

 

[Danthemailman]

Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

This is descriptive of those who are born of God. 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

[Mr. M]

This is descriptive of those who are born of God. 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

So does "born of God" take place at conversion, for instance, a direct result of reciting a sinners prayer,
or if you insert that verse back into the letter, where John uses the word "abide" some 18 times,
is it better understood as a committed daily walk with the Lord that "overcomes the world". Are we
claiming final victory, or does "shall inherit" clearly point to the actual receiving of the full inheritance,
as opposed to the deposit{down payment, earnest-KJV} that makes the exegesis more complete.

 

[Danthemailman]

So is "born of God" take place at conversion, for instance, a direct result of reciting a sinners prayer, or if you insert that verse back into the letter, where John uses the word "abide" some 18 times, is it better understood as a committed daily walk with the Lord that "overcomes the world." Are we claiming final victory, or does "shall inherit" clearly point to the actual receiving of the full inheritance, as opposed to the deposit {down payment, earnest-KJV} that makes the exegesis more complete.

Being born of God took place at conversion. 1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Reciting the words to a sinners prayer "in of itself" is not what saves us. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Those He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present, which is descriptive of those who are truly born of God.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

In regards to the down payment, earnest:

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Mr. M]

The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present, which is descriptive of those who are truly born of God.

I love you Dan the man! These are some very fine points. I am glad to see you bring in the word meno,
because Jesus also used it very often. Here is one statement that should help everyone in their
"diligence towards making their calling and election sure" 2 Peter 1:10
John 15:
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done
for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

I would suggest that another way of describing an overcomer is a believer who is committed to
a lifestyle of prayer, and brings forth the fruits thereby. Much of the interpretation of the Gospel
focuses on Salvation, but our inheritance includes the idea of "a just recompense of reward",
which is reflected in coming glory, and the overcoming life of the believer. Consider another verse,
from the apostle John.
2 John 1:8. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but we may receive
a full reward.
So much treasure in heaven that can be in store for those who abide! Here John speaks of loss, and
falling short of a full reward, which will result from neglecting "so great a salvation". So yes, we can
start here:
Mark 16:16. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
But we cannot neglect the sure word of prophecy:
Luke 1:
74 To grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
Amen.

 

[Mr. M]

Scripture declares Salvation is of the Lord !

The topic is not Salvation, but the overcoming life of the believer, who is "working out his
salvation in fear and trembling", living in the hope of eternal reward, which is beyond salvation,
but in glory.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The topic is not Salvation, but the overcoming life of the believer, who is "working out his
salvation in fear and trembling", living in the hope of eternal reward, which is beyond salvation,
but in glory.

And I believe that is Gods doing in us as my previous post was about. We may just agree to disagree on this but I'm not 100% sure. We could be talking past each other on this.

 

[Mr. M]

Being born of God took place at conversion. 1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Reciting the words to a sinners prayer "in of itself" is not what saves us. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Amen. You must be born again to bear fruit of righteousness.

Those He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Yes, but not all glory is the same. 1 Cor 15:40-45
"for one star differs from another star in glory."
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Yes, it is in this we must abide.