...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

[HitchSlap]

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

I think Paul understood something you've yet to grasp.

 

[Alithis]

Which changes what exactly?


I don't find living in denial honest.

but i honestly deny that atheism is truth

the point i made was that .. people will only ever see what they have determined in their heart to see .
and so it is - you split hairs to direct away from points made -
but i wont ever see things your way
i have honestly determined in my heart to never see things an atheists way .

so the point remains

 

[Archaeopteryx]

but i have chosen to never see it that way nor agree with you regardless of anything you say, do ,produce , argue debate - i will never agree with you an atheist- i have determined in my heart not to .

That isn't a virtue. You are saying that nothing - absolutely nothing - could persuade you to reconsider your theism because of your complete emotional resistance to any thought that may point against that direction.

so the point is reestablished as valid .
-A person will only see that which they have determined in their heart to see -
i'm just being honest about it - you should try it

Honesty also involves being honest with how one's ideas align with the reality of the situation. You are of the view that "There is nothing you can say that would change my mind." I don't share this view because I am aware of the possibility that I may indeed be wrong, and that as new knowledge brings to bear, an honest assessment of the situation would require me to change my thinking.

 

[driewerf]

Most babies need an adult mother to help them survive until they can fend for themselves. Man is no exception. If you've ever looked around, you might have noticed that the world is populated by adults and children who are becomming adults. The role of children is to grow into adults. The role of adults is to raise their families and serve God.

A simple reading of Genesis will reveal that everything God created was in its mature state, including trees bearing fruit and not seedlings in the dirt. Maturity, then, was part of the design. Adam was a mature adult, the animals were created in their maturiy, the trees were created in their maturity and the planet was created in its maturity. To the ignorant, this may seem like God is intending to decieve us.

I want to get a little deeper into this.
There is a certain "logic" to say that god created his Adam, the trees etc mature. After all, on the 7th day god rested, he didn't change Adam's diapers.

But it is a stretch from mature Aadam and trees to maturity for the entire planet --and hence the Universe as a whole. When we see the Earth, we see a continious of history. From different Ice Ages, 5 major extinctions, the many layers forming the Deccan Traps, ver old coral reefs, the magnetic reversals in the ocean floor etc. The timeline of planet Earth is full of this kind of events, distributed over the 4.6 billions of years the Earth existed. And the "logic" that could be applied for a mature Adam is not applicable for these events.

The same goes for the Universe. To take just one example: Supernova 1987A. The star exploded approximately 170 000 years ago, the light of the explosion reached us just in 1987. So did create god "light in transit" from a not existing star? If yes, for what purpose?

There is no "need" for all these events to make the Genesis story believable. And there is no logical extrapolation from a "mature Adam" to a mature Universe. So your point is ver weak.

But obviously, the writers of Genesis were unaware of all this. They just described what they saw in their immediate environment. Unable to take into account geological features in India or atb the bottom of the ocean. Gensis is not the word of any god, it is humanity's work (an should be celebrated as such).

 

[driewerf]

These trees that supposedly record a history longer than 6100 years ... do they record a global flood in Noah's time?

I suspect it's more than just Ussher's dating I would have to be jettisoning if I accepted dendrochronology.

I don't buy dendrochronology on principle.

You would discard one single book, yet win an entire world.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

but i honestly deny that atheism is truth

So? Aren't we on the science forum?

the point i made was that .. people will only ever see what they have determined in their heart to see .
and so it is - you split hairs to direct away from points made -
but i wont ever see things your way
i have honestly determined in my heart to never see things an atheists way .

so the point remains

That point seems rather tangental. Opinions about the existence or not of gods don't seem to be testable or relevant at least to reality. We can all hold opinions about various things and have different tastes without denying reality. I'm not bothered whether you're an atheist or not, it doesn't seem that important when compared with the real world out there where I might get hit by a car, fall off a cliff or get eaten by a lion. No matter how much I might wish I wasn't in a lion's jaws the reality won't alter to fit my wishes.

 

[In situ]

It is applied under two incorrect assumptions:

1. deep time
2. uninterrupted (uniformitarian) processing

It is very simple AV:

Either you a) deny that the Earth exists or b) explain why earth have not evaporated away in an enormous thermonuclear explosion. Because the Earth is here, isn't it?

 

[AV1611VET]

You would discard one single book, yet win an entire world.

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

 

[AV1611VET]

explain why earth have not evaporated away in an enormous thermonuclear explosion.

It will ... when the time comes.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In the meantime, Jesus is keeping it together.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

You will have lost nothing but your own self-deception and delusions. A good trade for the whole world.

 

[AV1611VET]

You will have lost nothing but your own self-deception and delusions. A good trade for the whole world.

No, thanks.

Satan offered the whole world to Jesus, and He declined -- I'll do the same.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

No, thanks.

Satan offered the whole world to Jesus, and He declined -- I'll do the same.

I hope you aren't comparing me to satan or yourself to jesus. That would be wrong on many levels.

And what is actually being offered is not ownership of anything except your own mind, which will be given back to you. You will lose nothing except your own lies to yourself: both the empty promises that make you feel oh so good, and the ones that frighten you so much you would rather close your eyes and ears and recite meaningless incantations to yourself than countenance the possibility that they might be wrong, so terrifying are they. But they are real to you and the alternative seems colourless, chaotic, bleached out and alien in comparison, void of the familiar and the meaningful. What is actually available, and seems utterly incomprehensible to you is that your eyes will be opened to your own existence in this world. The world will appear a much more astonishing and precious place, as will every living thing in it. Everything will actually be real rather than a cartoon. But I guess it's too late for you.

 

[AV1611VET]

I hope you aren't comparing me to satan or yourself to jesus. That would be wrong on many levels.

And what is actually being offered is not ownership of anything except your own mind, which will be given back to you. You will lose nothing except your own lies to yourself: both the empty promises that make you feel oh so good, and the ones that frighten you so much you would rather close your eyes and ears and recite meaningless incantations to yourself than countenance the possibility that they might be wrong, so terrifying are they. But they are real to you and the alternative seems colourless, chaotic, bleached out and alien in comparison, void of the familiar and the meaningful. What is actually available, and seems utterly incomprehensible to you is that your eyes will be opened to your own existence in this world. The world will appear a much more astonishing and precious place, as will every living thing in it. Everything will actually be real rather than a cartoon. But I guess it's too late for you.

Hit a nerve, did I?

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Hit a nerve, did I?

I'll answer that for you: No.

Although given your adversarial relationship with reality, you can't help but see it that way.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Hit a nerve, did I?

No, actually. In fact I couldn't even tell you what nerve you think you might have aimed at. If that's all you have to say in response to a rather resigned explanation of your predicament to you, well, I suppose it rather proves my point.

 

[Heissonear]

I hope you aren't comparing me to satan or yourself to jesus. That would be wrong on many levels.

And what is actually being offered is not ownership of anything except your own mind, which will be given back to you. You will lose nothing except your own lies to yourself: both the empty promises that make you feel oh so good, and the ones that frighten you so much you would rather close your eyes and ears and recite meaningless incantations to yourself than countenance the possibility that they might be wrong, so terrifying are they. But they are real to you and the alternative seems colourless, chaotic, bleached out and alien in comparison, void of the familiar and the meaningful. What is actually available, and seems utterly incomprehensible to you is that your eyes will be opened to your own existence in this world. The world will appear a much more astonishing and precious place, as will every living thing in it. Everything will actually be real rather than a cartoon. But I guess it's too late for you.

The Day of Naturalism. It is when "eyes" become opened and truth about our natural world and our existence accurately apprehended.

Nice try. The spiritual realm you have yet to detect and apprehend is more real than the natural so many are caught up in through the common 5 senses.

As far as chaotic and closing ones eyes and ears: God is in control of every detail, including your freewill and drive through Naturalism. When was God not around? Where was He not at any moment and place in time? Chaotic? To those blind to the Kingdom in our midst.

The world is not astonishing through the eyes of Naturalism. They do not see what they need to see and the reason they are here. When a person misses God in this life they have walked the road of failure and blindness. The Day of the Naturalist can be obtained, but in exchange for what in comparison?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

The Day of Naturalism. It is when "eyes" become opened and truth about our natural world and our existence accurately apprehended.

It's more that your view of yourself, the world and your place in the world isn't clouded with a fictional narrative that gives you wrong answers and false hopes and fears.

Nice try. The spiritual realm you have yet to detect and apprehend is more real than the natural so many are caught up in through the common 5 senses.

I'm seeing a lot of vanity and pride here, but no evidence that you are experiencing anything different from me.

As far as chaotic and closing ones eyes and ears: God is in control of every detail, including your freewill and drive through Naturalism. When was God not around? Where was He noy at any moment and place in time? Chaotic? To those blind to the Kingdom in our midst.

You've gone into gibberish from the pulpit mode now.

The world is not astonishing through the eyes of Naturalism.

I beg to differ.

They do not see what they need to see and the reason they are here.

They are not having the world shown to them through the prism of a fictional religious narrative, agreed.

When a person misses God in this life they have walked the road of failure and blindness.

That's good, because I've never missed God in my life.

The Day of the Naturalist can be obtained, but in exchange for what in comparison?

Self-deception, and delusions.

 

[Heissonear]

It's more that your view of yourself, the world and your place in the world isn't clouded with a fictional narrative that gives you wrong answers and false hopes and fears.



I'm seeing a lot of vanity and pride here, but no evidence that you are experiencing anything different from me.



You've gone into gibberish from the pulpit mode now.



I beg to differ.



They are not having the world shown to them through the prism of a fictional religious narrative, agreed.



That's good, because I've never missed God in my life.



Self-deception, and delusions.

You are quite right about religious deception all around us. And throughout time in civilizations.

You are very correct that the development of scientific knowledge has helped mankind immensely. In health, realistic understanding about natural phenomena, standard of living, intricate ability to engineer and uutilize electricity, materials, and natural processes.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, thanks.

Satan offered the whole world to Jesus, and He declined -- I'll do the same.

Didn't Jesus, as God, already have the whole world? How can he decline what he already has?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

You are quite right about religious deception all around us. And throughout time in civilizations.

The conflict between rationality and self-deception is one we all struggle with in one form or another in different parts of our lives. It is part of the human mental experience.

You are very correct that the development of scientific knowledge has helped mankind immensely. In health, realistic understanding about natural phenomena, standard of living, intricate ability to engineer and uutilize electricity, materials, and natural processes.

Well, thank you very much, but, erm, I don't think I actually touched on anything you just mentioned...did I?