...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

[pjnlsn]

It is applied under two incorrect assumptions:

1. deep time
2. uninterrupted (uniformitarian) processing

If we're talking about physics at all, it's proven. Very much so.

 

[KWCrazy]

If God created meteors with no argon how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many meteors have you created?

If God created zircons with no Pb in them, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many zircons have you created?

If God created a universe with no stars further out than 1,000 light years, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many universes have you created? How many stars?

If God created granite without uranium radiohaloes, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many tons of granite have you created?

If life did not fall into a nested hierarchy, how would this affect the survival of life on Earth?
How many life forms have you created?

IOW, the history that we see in the history has nothing to do with the survival of life in a new creation.
How many creations do you have to your credit?

Job 38
1 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

 

[pjnlsn]

If God created meteors with no argon how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many meteors have you created?

If God created zircons with no Pb in them, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many zircons have you created?

If God created a universe with no stars further out than 1,000 light years, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many universes have you created? How many stars?

If God created granite without uranium radiohaloes, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many tons of granite have you created?

If life did not fall into a nested hierarchy, how would this affect the survival of life on Earth?
How many life forms have you created?

IOW, the history that we see in the history has nothing to do with the survival of life in a new creation.
How many creations do you have to your credit?

Job 38
1 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

Religious people seem to think that it means something, apologetics.

But for any sort of deity to exist in the first place, this is unlikely and unproven.

 

[bhsmte]

If God created meteors with no argon how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many meteors have you created?

If God created zircons with no Pb in them, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many zircons have you created?

If God created a universe with no stars further out than 1,000 light years, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many universes have you created? How many stars?

If God created granite without uranium radiohaloes, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many tons of granite have you created?

If life did not fall into a nested hierarchy, how would this affect the survival of life on Earth?
How many life forms have you created?

IOW, the history that we see in the history has nothing to do with the survival of life in a new creation.
How many creations do you have to your credit?

Job 38
1 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

KW,

You make it very easy to reject your opinion, you do all the work by yourself!

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

If God created meteors with no argon how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many meteors have you created?

If God created zircons with no Pb in them, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many zircons have you created?

If God created a universe with no stars further out than 1,000 light years, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many universes have you created? How many stars?

If God created granite without uranium radiohaloes, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many tons of granite have you created?

If life did not fall into a nested hierarchy, how would this affect the survival of life on Earth?
How many life forms have you created?

IOW, the history that we see in the history has nothing to do with the survival of life in a new creation.
How many creations do you have to your credit?

Job 38
1 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

Seems to me that God's speech from the whirlwind applies more to YECs than the rest of us. He points to various things in his creation and asks if you know better? Surely science is looking directly at this creation while YECs make up stories that reject the evidence of the creation to suit their own hubris about how well they have interpreted the word. Remember Proverbs 3:5. Your own understanding of the bible doesn't trump reality.

 

[HitchSlap]

My Bible is, though.

General scientific consensus can take a hike.

The Bible.

Your bible was written by men with average contemporary understanding of the times, and often gets things wrong.

General scientific consensus is the result of the process by which we know anything at all.

The bible is wrong about reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your bible was written by men with average contemporary understanding of the times, and often gets things wrong.

Says you.

I'll go with what Paul ... who was there ... said.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

General scientific consensus is the result of the process by which we know anything at all.

And I'm thankful Frances Kelsey told general scientific consensus to take a hike.

The bible is wrong about reality.

I somehow don't consider you an authority on which trumps what; but I respect your opinion.

 

[pjnlsn]

Says you.

I'll go with what Paul ... who was there ... said.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

And I'm thankful Frances Kelsey told general scientific consensus to take a hike.

I somehow don't consider you an authority on which trumps what; but I respect your opinion.

It is unlikely and unproven that a deity, of Christianity or otherwise, exists at all.

 

[Loudmouth]

If God created meteors with no argon how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many meteors have you created?

If God created zircons with no Pb in them, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many zircons have you created?

If God created a universe with no stars further out than 1,000 light years, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many universes have you created? How many stars?

If God created granite without uranium radiohaloes, how would this impact the survival of life on Earth?
How many tons of granite have you created?

If life did not fall into a nested hierarchy, how would this affect the survival of life on Earth?
How many life forms have you created?

IOW, the history that we see in the history has nothing to do with the survival of life in a new creation.
How many creations do you have to your credit?

The answer to all of these questions is that the history recorded in our universe is not necessary to sustain life. So why is it there?

 

[Alithis]

Objective reality is less forgiving. If I ignore it I get hit by a car.

much like if you ignore God you will get hit by God

but you choose to ignore him all the same .
so my first point still stands.
a person will only see that which they have determined in their heart to see.
argument ,facts, figures, debates ,half truths, twisted truths, perceived truths .. all meaningless if a person is determined to disagree - in anything - then they will not agree .

be honest about it is all i say

 

[Alithis]

So are gravity and atoms also foolishness? Do you reject all of science because it is foolishness?

gravity science and atoms are not wisdom - your reply was in reference to - "the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God ..."

but you also will only see that which you have determined in your heart to see.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

much like if you ignore God you will get hit by God

Not really.

but you choose to ignore him all the same .
so my first point still stands.
a person will only see that which they have determined in their heart to see.

Actually your point is refuted. As much as the idea that truth is relative may be comforting to you there is an objective reality that can be tested and observed and the denial of which always involves deception.

argument ,facts, figures, debates ,half truths, twisted truths, perceived truths .. all meaningless if a person is determined to disagree - in anything - then they will not agree .

That's true but our only honest recourse is to honestly test our ideas against objective reality. Otherwise we live in a miasma of your truth is as good as mine.

be honest about it is all i say

That's all I say too. Cognitive bias exists in all of us and it is through recognizing this fact we can deal with it. What I don't agree with is that the existence of cognitive bias means anything can be summarily dismissed just by saying the words "you'll only believe what you want to believe". There is a reality which doesn't depend on your personal opinion.

 

[pjnlsn]

much like if you ignore God you will get hit by God

but you choose to ignore him all the same .
so my first point still stands.
a person will only see that which they have determined in their heart to see.
argument ,facts, figures, debates ,half truths, twisted truths, perceived truths .. all meaningless if a person is determined to disagree - in anything - then they will not agree .

be honest about it is all i say

no they won't actually, which is what michael is getting at.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is unlikely and unproven that a deity, of Christianity or otherwise, exists at all.

Yes ... you've said that 20 times now.

Ever heard of a propaganda technique called the: große Lüge?

 

[pjnlsn]

Yes ... you've said that 20 times now.

Ever heard of a propaganda technique called the: große Lüge?

It is still unlikely and unproven that any deity exists.

 

[Alithis]

Not really.



Actually your point is refuted. As much as the idea that truth is relative may be comforting to you there is an objective reality that can be tested and observed and the denial of which always involves deception.

That's true but our only honest recourse is to honestly test our ideas against objective reality. Otherwise we live in a miasma of your truth is as good as mine.


That's all I say too. Cognitive bias exists in all of us and it is through recognizing this fact we can deal with it. What I don't agree with is that the existence of cognitive bias means anything can be summarily dismissed just by saying the words "you'll only believe what you want to believe". There is a reality which doesn't depend on your personal opinion.

but i have chosen to never see it that way nor agree with you regardless of anything you say, do ,produce , argue debate - i will never agree with you an atheist- i have determined in my heart not to .

so the point is reestablished as valid .
-A person will only see that which they have determined in their heart to see -
i'm just being honest about it - you should try it

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

but i have chosen to never see it that way nor agree with you regardless of anything you say, do ,produce , argue debate - i will never agree with you an atheist- i have determined in my heart not to .

Which changes what exactly?

so the point is reestablished as valid .
-A person will only see that which they have determined in their heart to see -
i'm just being honest about it - you should try it

I don't find living in denial honest.

 

[TheBear]

So I should interpret the Resurrection in accordance with "objective reality"?

That question is very revealing, AV. Not you, personally, but for a lot of Christians who have that as a core question regarding the Bible. It reveals their underlying motivation for staying so stubbornly ignorant and defiant in the face of reality. The idea that they will burn in hell forever if they ever change how they read the Bible, keeps them in check, like slaves, chained to these thoughts throughout their entire lives, and they are in a constant battle with the world, and, ( if they got any shred of honesty), with themselves. It's tragic, really. Thank you for that question, AV. Very revealing, indeed.

 

[AV1611VET]

So I should interpret the Resurrection in accordance with "objective reality"?

That question is very revealing, AV. Not you, personally, but for a lot of Christians who have that as a core question regarding the Bible. It reveals their underlying motivation for staying so stubbornly ignorant and defiant in the face of reality. The idea that they will burn in hell forever if they ever change how they read the Bible, keeps them in check, like slaves, chained to these thoughts throughout their entire lives, and they are in a constant battle with the world, and, ( if they got any shred of honesty), with themselves. It's tragic, really. Thank you for that question, AV. Very revealing, indeed.

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[TheBear]

You missed it, AV. Never mind.