Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

[Thekla]

Sorry but that is willful blindness. Try studying the Greek.... It is crystal clear that Messiah had blood brothers and sisters (meaning Joseph and Mary had other children)

Only to second Prodromos ...

If you read the NT and OT in Greek, you will find that the term translated as "brother" is used for people who are known to not be biologically brothers (or sisters). In Greek secular literature of the time, it is the same.

 

[BukiRob]

Only to second Prodromos ...

If you read the NT and OT in Greek, you will find that the term translated as "brother" is used for people who are known to not be biologically brothers (or sisters). In Greek secular literature of the time, it is the same.

G-d instituted marriage. Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

The Hebrew word is ECHAD... united as 1 or complete.

This foolishness about Mary never being 1 with Joseph is an abomination to the decree of G-d concerning marriage. A man is NOT echad with his wife without FULLY, scripturally KNOWING her.

More importantly NO WHERE in scripture does it even HINT at the idea that Mary and Joseph were anything other than a NORMAL man and wife. The idea that a Jewish man and wife would not have sexual relations is so absurd that if you suggest that to a Jew they would laugh at you.

Since there is 0 scripture that you can point to that supports this preposterous view you are at a difficult juncture. There is not even the most remotest of hints in ANY of the gospel accounts to support this notion NONE

 

[Thekla]

G-d instituted marriage. Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

The Hebrew word is ECHAD... united as 1 or complete.

This foolishness about Mary never being 1 with Joseph is an abomination to the decree of G-d concerning marriage. A man is NOT echad with his wife without FULLY, scripturally KNOWING her.

More importantly NO WHERE in scripture does it even HINT at the idea that Mary and Joseph were anything other than a NORMAL man and wife. The idea that a Jewish man and wife would not have sexual relations is so absurd that if you suggest that to a Jew they would laugh at you.

Since there is 0 scripture that you can point to that supports this preposterous view you are at a difficult juncture. There is not even the most remotest of hints in ANY of the gospel accounts to support this notion NONE

Actually, nowhere in the Scriptures are Mary and Joseph said to be married; Luke and Matthew both use the term for betrothed, and the general terms for man and woman (that are not dependent on marital status).

Do look at the Greek.

It should also be noted that a 'rabbi' was expected to be married - what about Jesus ?

 

[prodromos]

More importantly NO WHERE in scripture does it even HINT at the idea that Mary and Joseph were anything other than a NORMAL man and wife.

Mary's response to the archangel, when told she would conceive a child, does more than hint that their relationship would not be what you consider normal.

The idea that a Jewish man and wife would not have sexual relations is so absurd that if you suggest that to a Jew they would laugh at you.

Apparently it was common enough for special provisions to be made in Numbers 30.

 

[BukiRob]

Actually, nowhere in the Scriptures are Mary and Joseph said to be married; Luke and Matthew both use the term for betrothed, and the general terms for man and woman (that are not dependent on marital status).

Do look at the Greek.

It should also be noted that a 'rabbi' was expected to be married - what about Jesus ?

That is not how Jewish custom regarding betrothal work. One you were bethrothed the ONLY way the marriage would not occur would be because one of the two were unfaithful. Which of course is why we see Joseph considering this very thing but his intention was to do it quietly.

Matthew 1: 8 Now the birth of Jesus [r]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned [t]to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been [v]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for [w]He will save His people from their sins.” 22 Now all this [x]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” 24 And Joseph [z]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 [aa]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

#1 scripture calls Joseph Mary's HUSBAND

#2 scripture plainly states that he kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth...

Without consummating the marriage a man and woman are NOT husband and wife.

The idea that Mary didn't marry Joseph is false. The idea that Mary was a virgin the rest of her life is a lie. The idea that Mary and Joseph is untrue given that A) she did marry Joseph, B) if they did not have sex the marriage is not consummated and C) unless Mary was barren she HAD other children because birth control did not exist

 

[Thekla]

That is not how Jewish custom regarding betrothal work. One you were bethrothed the ONLY way the marriage would not occur would be because one of the two were unfaithful. Which of course is why we see Joseph considering this very thing but his intention was to do it quietly.

Matthew 1: 8 Now the birth of Jesus [r]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned [t]to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been [v]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for [w]He will save His people from their sins.” 22 Now all this [x]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” 24 And Joseph [z]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 [aa]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

#1 scripture calls Joseph Mary's HUSBAND

#2 scripture plainly states that he kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth...

Without consummating the marriage a man and woman are NOT husband and wife.

The idea that Mary didn't marry Joseph is false. The idea that Mary was a virgin the rest of her life is a lie. The idea that Mary and Joseph is untrue given that A) she did marry Joseph, B) if they did not have sex the marriage is not consummated and C) unless Mary was barren she HAD other children because birth control did not exist

What the Scriptures say is what the Scriptures state: that they were "mnistevo", nor do the Scriptures ever state that they were "gameo".

The use of the term "until" in Greek ( and even in English) does not demand the reversal of condition following the period of time covered by "until".

Do check the use of "until" in the OT (LXX) and NT:

Matthew ... 27:8 did the Field of Blood cease to be called the Field of Blood immediately after "that day" ?

Luke 2:37 ... did Anna cease to be a widow after the age of 84 ?

Samuel 6:23 ... did Michal have children after the day she died ?

 

[Alithis]

of course mary did not remain a virgin -

she was married . (consummated ) ..
its almost weird how people twist and manipulate plain scripture in an attempt to make it fit man made claims .
Nor was she without sin ..if she was ...it annuls the need for the lord Jesus to even come . if a person born of the blood of Adam could be sinless there simply is no need for a savior ..
Mary was born of the sinful blood of Adam ..she was not sinless .. she did not remain a virgin .. .. she was obedient to god ,to be so she had to submit to her husband .. (especially) in those days .
mother and brothers .. weird how its meaning is plain and clear. until its lied about

 

[Thekla]

of course mary did not remain a virgin -

she was married . (consummated ) ..
its almost weird how people twist and manipulate plain scripture in an attempt to make it fit man made claims .
Nor was she without sin ..if she was ...it annuls the need for the lord Jesus to even come . if a person born of the blood of Adam could be sinless there simply is no need for a savior ..
Mary was born of the sinful blood of Adam ..she was not sinless .. she did not remain a virgin .. .. she was obedient to god ,to be so she had to submit to her husband .. (especially) in those days .
mother and brothers .. weird how its meaning is plain and clear. until its lied about

only to say, the Scriptures never say the marriage was consumated, or that there was a marriage (only the state of betrothal is recorded in the NT)

Mary was born just like the rest of us - with a propensity or ability to sin.

but virginity is not just about how one is born - and in some denote a more full participation/relationship with God, or a calling that does not include sexual relationships (Christ talks about this)

Midrash holds that after Moses' deep encounter with God, he remained celibate.

 

[BukiRob]

only to say, the Scriptures never say the marriage was consumated, or that there was a marriage (only the state of betrothal is recorded in the NT)

Mary was born just like the rest of us - with a propensity or ability to sin.

but virginity is not just about how one is born - and in some denote a more full participation/relationship with God, or a calling that does not include sexual relationships (Christ talks about this)

Midrash holds that after Moses' deep encounter with God, he remained celibate.

Marriage exists ONLY when consummated. If a man and a woman never consummate they are not married. There is only 1 way a man and a woman become one flesh and it is through sexual intercourse.

Midrash is not scripture and as such can not, nor should it be given anywhere near the weight of scripture. Particularly so when venturing into speculative conjuncture. There is not even the slightest of hint in scripture that Moses abandoned his duty and role as a husband


Adonai declares Gen 2:18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [o]suitable for him.”

G-d's ideal is for a man to marry and for the two to become 1 flesh as it is a type of the relationship between Messiah and his bride.

 

[prodromos]

Midrash is not scripture and as such can not, nor should it be given anywhere near the weight of scripture. Particularly so when venturing into speculative conjuncture.

Midrash has a lot more authority than your opinion, and that is pretty much all you have given us, since you have not attempted to back up your earlier assertions with scripture.

There is not even the slightest of hint in scripture that Moses abandoned his duty and role as a husband

How many children does scripture record Moses as having?

G-d's ideal is for a man to marry and for the two to become 1 flesh as it is a type of the relationship between Messiah and his bride.

The bride of the Messiah remains a virgin, does it not?

 

[Open Heart]

Without consummating the marriage a man and woman are NOT husband and wife.

This is not true. In Judaism, there are three things that can get ya married.
1. Having intercourse with the intention of marriage.
2. Making a marriage contract (a get).
3. A payment of property to the woman (usually a ring).

Ideally all three are done, but only one suffices. Thus, no consummation is needed.

 

[mmksparbud]

How many children does scripture record Moses as having?

The bride of the Messiah remains a virgin, does it not?[/QUOTE]


Midrash holds that after Moses' deep encounter with God, he remained celibate.[/QUOTE]


Now Moses is celibate ,too??!! Well, him, maybe--he was 80 years old at the time. However, was his encounter with God at the burning bush his first encounter with Him?? Was his encounter with God any more holy than Abrahams encounters with God where he was still trying to have a child after those encounters?? Moses had children doesn't say how many he had--

(Exo 4:20) And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.


The high priests had encounters with God during their duties and they were not celibate. And the bride of the Messiah is declared a virgin--however, Mary was not the bride of the Messiah.

 

[Alithis]

two things get at me .. first .. its obvious from scripture that Mary was the wife of Joseph and they went on to have more children .its just plain and simple .
he later took her as a man his wife . he did not livbe out the rsat of his days and not "know " his wife .

those who advocate for it have to manipulate ,bend twist and force scripture and then fall back on quoting none scriptural reference ..as if it somehow gives weight .. it doesn't .

the other thing that gets me about it .. is the why ? why do they find it so important to think she remained a virgin ? and the answer to that question uncovers whats really going on .. and branches into other topics of whom is really being given "worth"(worship) too much .

 

[seekingsolace]

Mary remaining a virgin really is unimportant, whether she did or not makes no difference to the immaculate conception. As for praying to Mary, I would have thought the principles of prayer were quite clearly set out in the Bible.

 

[prodromos]

Now Moses is celibate ,too??!! Well, him, maybe--he was 80 years old at the time. However, was his encounter with God at the burning bush his first encounter with Him?? Was his encounter with God any more holy than Abrahams encounters with God where he was still trying to have a child after those encounters?? Moses had children doesn't say how many he had--

(Exo 4:20) And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.

Actually, Moses had two sons, Gershom and Elie′zer, both born before his encounter with God. No other children are mentioned. I believe it is also pretty safe to say that no one in the Old Testament had an encounter with God whose intimacy matched that of Moses. The only person who had a more intimate encounter was Mary.

The high priests had encounters with God during their duties and they were not celibate

What encounters are you referring to and how do they compare with that experienced by Moses?

And the bride of the Messiah is declared a virgin--however, Mary was not the bride of the Messiah.

So what point do you think BukiRob was trying to make? If marriage is a type of the relationship between Christ and the Church, shouldn't we all be celibate?

 

[mmksparbud]

Actually, Moses had two sons, Gershom and Elie′zer, both born before his encounter with God. No other children are mentioned. I believe it is also pretty safe to say that no one in the Old Testament had an encounter with God whose intimacy matched that of Moses. The only person who had a more intimate encounter was Mary.

What encounters are you referring to and how do they compare with that experienced by Moses?

So what point do you think BukiRob was trying to make? If marriage is a type of the relationship between Christ and the Church, shouldn't we all be celibate?

You think Abrahams encounter with God was less intimate than that of Moses??

(Gen 18:1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day(Gen 18:2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,


(Gen 18:8) And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.


I'd say sitting down to lunch with THE LORD is a pretty close encounter--a burning bush is nice, but I'd take the lunch.
As for the High Priest, they alone would stand in the Most Holy Place in front of the Ark where God Himself would be.

And if everyone was celibate---the human race would die off--certainly not many Christians would be hanging around

 

[prodromos]

You think Abrahams encounter with God was less intimate than that of Moses??

(Gen 18:1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day(Gen 18:2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,


(Gen 18:8) And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.


I'd say sitting down to lunch with THE LORD is a pretty close encounter--a burning bush is nice, but I'd take the lunch.

I think you are forgetting the 40 days on Mt Sinai

 

[mmksparbud]

I think you are forgetting the 40 days on Mt Sinai

Not forgetting it at all, His face shone so brightly it had to be veiled. What I am saying, is--why are people trying to make it that anyone who has had a close contact with God, is then to be celibate, when there is no such statement anywhere in the bible? Marital relations are a gift from God and without it, no children are born! It was given in heaven, before the fall, when they were able to be with God, face to face.



(Gen 1:28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


He said to be fruitful and multiply--before the fall. Somehow, after the fall, it seems that husband and wife are to be celibate if they have an encounter with God----doesn't even make sense.

 

[pat34lee]

Actually, there are no less than four citations in the synoptic gospels stating quite clearly that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

EDIT*
Sorry, misread the quote.

 

[pat34lee]

Jesus' brethren do not defer to Him as they would to their eldest brother, but instead treat him as elder siblings would treat a younger brother. Scripture also states that they did not initially believe in Him, which would be difficult to accept if they had grown up in His shadow, but makes perfect sense if they were already young adults when Jesus was born.
IMHO, scripture is entirely consistent with Mary remaining a virgin.

Sorry, but that is not consistent with childbirth. Virginity does not survive a child traveling through any better than a male member.