Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

  • Yes

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Wryetui

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Well protestant churches broke from the RCC and they are a product of Rome, you can actually see that nothing broke from the EOC and we stayed the same here, noticed by anyone in the East, far from the troubles in the West. Breaking away from Church tradition led to chaos to Christianity, but I don't say that you cannot be a christian without it. It's a shame that nobody knows about Church tradition in the West, but here is vital. Actually, if Westerners came here they will find a completely different christianity than in their countries.
 
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TheBarrd

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I believe that the RCC here in the U.S. still keeps the tradition. I'm not sure what you mean by "chaos"...it's true that there are way too many denominations, and there is much disagreement over minor points of doctrine...but I think we all agree on the major tenets of our faith.
 
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TheBarrd

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It is fine if that is what you believe. For all I know, that may be exactly right.
But I do not claim to know. I have nothing that I can depend upon to tell me exactly how Mary died, or what happened to her body afterward. I am willing to accept that your belief may be true...but not to accept that belief for myself without more to go on.
 
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mmksparbud

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Actually, Wreytui did not present the Orthodox position on the matter in his post. We very much believe that the Theotokos died- however- her body was taken to heaven after. We Orthodox believe in her dormition (falling asleep). It is only some Catholics that believe in her assumption (that she didn't actually die).

We believe that the Theotokos is the ideal Christian- having reached theosis/salvation.


Something else I don't get---If Mary was sinless--she didn't need salvation--she didn't have to die. Enoch and Elijah did not see death. Were they more worthy than her? If someone was translated to heaven without seeing death it was mentioned in the bible. There is no mention of her ascension. Again, being sinless--her death was not required, any more than Enoch's or Elijah's.
 
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TheBarrd

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Come to think of it, the Bible doesn't actually say that she is sinless. I'm sure that she was as perfect as it is possible for a human being to be...after all, God chose her and Joseph to raise His Son to His destiny.
Still, I can't help but see her as a woman...blessed among women. I do not see her as a goddess.
But then, again...I'm not a Catholic, nor an Eastern Orthodox.
 
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TheBarrd

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And why doesn't Joseph come in for some of this adoration? After all, God chose him to care for the mother of His Son, and to help her to raise Him to His destiny. Surely the father is also important? Why do we just sort of pass him by as if he is a nobody? He was important enough for an angel to come to him, not once, but at least twice. It was a very serious responsibility God laid on his shoulders, and he lived up to it.
I say, HURRAY for JOSEPH!!
 
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mmksparbud

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And why doesn't Joseph come in for some of this adoration? After all, God chose him to care for the mother of His Son, and to help her to raise Him to His destiny. Surely the father is also important? Why do we just sort of pass him by as if he is a nobody? He was important enough for an angel to come to him, not once, but at least twice. It was a very serious responsibility God laid on his shoulders, and he lived up to it.
I say, HURRAY for JOSEPH!!

Right--the church say she is sinless, and she was born sinless. But the father, who represents the heavenly Father on this earth (figuratively) could have been previously married with children and it's ok. But she couldn't have children after Jesus. Which makes no sense to me. They say marriage, sex (within marriage), and children are blessings from God, and no sin, but she couldn't have sex and children because she was sinless---????----???
 
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TheBarrd

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Right--the church say she is sinless, and she was born sinless. But the father, who represents the heavenly Father on this earth (figuratively) could have been previously married with children and it's ok. But she couldn't have children after Jesus. Which makes no sense to me. They say marriage, sex (within marriage), and children are blessings from God, and no sin, but she couldn't have sex and children because she was sinless---????----???

I always thought that Jesus alone was without sin. And even He was tempted to sin:
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

I guess it's okay for Joseph to be previously married and to have children, because, after all, he's a man.
One of the greatest men in the Bible not only aided and abetted a horrible murder, but he had also committed many bloody murders himself...and yet he is hailed as an apostle. I am speaking, of course, of Paul, who called himself the chief of sinners...and don't let's forget poor Mary Magdalene, who has been branded a harlot, when all we truly know of her is that Jesus cast seven devils out of her. Whatever she had done before that, surely she was now clean...Jesus must have thought so, since she was the first of His disciples He showed Himself to after His resurrection.
Okay...I am jumping down off of my soapbox now.
Sorry, sometimes I do get a little carried away...
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's perfectly fine, the protestant churches or branches of christianity ditched the Most Holy Theotokos so in the US the traditions, prayers and fasting around Her are almost inexistent.

The Feast of the Annunciation is retained in the Lutheran churches. But we largely did not retain most of the other Marian feasts and holy days of the Western Calendar. Further, we do continue to honor the holy virgin mother of God. So I can say, at least as a Lutheran, we certainly have not ditched the Blessed Theotokos.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Actually, Wreytui did not present the Orthodox position on the matter in his post. We very much believe that the Theotokos died- however- her body was taken to heaven after. We Orthodox believe in her dormition (falling asleep). It is only some Catholics that believe in her assumption (that she didn't actually die).

We believe that the Theotokos is the ideal Christian- having reached theosis/salvation.

While Luther's own personal opinion on the subject (if I recall correctly) changed throughout his life (one can often find contradictory quotes on different subjects in Luther's writings) I do recall one statement Luther made at one point (though I'm quoting from memory and have no idea the source itself): "Mary is in heaven, how she got there we do not know." I liked it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The Feast of the Annunciation is retained in the Lutheran churches. But we largely did not retain most of the other Marian feasts and holy days of the Western Calendar. Further, we do continue to honor the holy virgin mother of God. So I can say, at least as a Lutheran, we certainly have not ditched the Blessed Theotokos.

-CryptoLutheran

We also celebrate the visitation and on August 15, the feast of St. Mary, mother of our Lord (in my congregation, the Dormation of Mary).
 
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TheBarrd

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I don't think anyone has "ditched the Blessed Theotokos". Every Christian loves and honors her. She is the Mother of our Lord.
It is not a dishonor to her to think that she may have had a happy marriage with her husband. You know, God could have sent Gabriel to her before she became betrothed, if He didn't want her to have a husband. Yes, it would have been problematical, but God could have left her as a single mother. But He waited until she was betrothed to a husband.
I can't believe God was "just using" Joseph. There was a reason for including him in the Great Miracle of Christ's birth. God chose Joseph to be Mary's husband and Jesus' foster father. Will you argue with the Divine choice?
The Bible does not tell us anything at all about their private lives. God could have told us that Joseph was an older man with kids from a previous marriage...but He didn't. He did see to it, however, that Jesus' brothers and sisters were mentioned. Why would He do that, if they weren't important? And at least one of them, it turns out, was very important. Can you tell me who it was?
It is my contention that, while Mary does deserve to be honored, so do the rest of the Holy Family...Joseph, and the other children in the family.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I don't think anyone has "ditched the Blessed Theotokos". Every Christian loves and honors her. She is the Mother of our Lord.
It is not a dishonor to her to think that she may have had a happy marriage with her husband. You know, God could have sent Gabriel to her before she became betrothed, if He didn't want her to have a husband. Yes, it would have been problematical, but God could have left her as a single mother. But He waited until she was betrothed to a husband.
I can't believe God was "just using" Joseph. There was a reason for including him in the Great Miracle of Christ's birth. God chose Joseph to be Mary's husband and Jesus' foster father. Will you argue with the Divine choice?
The Bible does not tell us anything at all about their private lives. God could have told us that Joseph was an older man with kids from a previous marriage...but He didn't. He did see to it, however, that Jesus' brothers and sisters were mentioned. Why would He do that, if they weren't important? And at least one of them, it turns out, was very important. Can you tell me who it was?
It is my contention that, while Mary does deserve to be honored, so do the rest of the Holy Family...Joseph, and the other children in the family.

Regarding Joseph, the Lutheran Church continues to honor him March 19 as St. Joseph, guardian of our Lord.
 
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TheBarrd

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Regarding Joseph, the Lutheran Church continues to honor him March 19 as St. Joseph, guardian of our Lord.

It does my heart good to hear that, Mark. Thank you for telling me.
 
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BukiRob

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Your still putting modern idea's upon the text, is does not say they were Christ direct siblings. Unfortunately modern evangelical type Protestants have learned quite a bit of falsehood and been very good at place thier modern ideas in ancient culture even though they don't have the slightest notion which that culture was like.

Sorry but that is willful blindness. Try studying the Greek.... It is crystal clear that Messiah had blood brothers and sisters (meaning Joseph and Mary had other children)
 
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prodromos

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Sorry but that is willful blindness. Try studying the Greek.... It is crystal clear that Messiah had blood brothers and sisters (meaning Joseph and Mary had other children)
Actually, studying the Greek proves nothing either way. It's crystal clear that Jesus had kin, but whether they were cousins, children of Joseph's by an earlier marriage, or the modern claim they are Mary's children cannot be proved one way or the other by the Greek text.
 
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BukiRob

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Actually, studying the Greek proves nothing either way. It's crystal clear that Jesus had kin, but whether they were cousins, children of Joseph's by an earlier marriage, or the modern claim they are Mary's children cannot be proved one way or the other by the Greek text.

You are overlaying your bias and trying to force scripture to fit your view instead of reading what is written and understanding the culture of the time.

No where are we at ALL given ANY indication that Joseph was previously married in fact it is HIGHLY unlikely.

Your failure to understand Jewish culture leads you down paths of foolishness.

FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS MOTHER AND FATHER.

Joseph was poor and came from a poor family. The FATHER of the family would tell his son when he could marry and it wasn't until the son could provide for his wife.

Joseph was a Jew NOT a gentile and he lived in a Torah observant Israel in the 1st century. He would have, have to have had a home and enough money to support a wife and being that he was a "handy man" his earning would have been meager and it would have taken YEARS to have enough money set aside to start a family.

Stop looking at scripture through the gentile world in a modern setting!
 
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prodromos

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You are overlaying your bias and trying to force scripture to fit your view instead of reading what is written and understanding the culture of the time.
I am doing no such thing. My understanding is from the knowledge passed down by the same Church which gave us the Bible along with the liturgy, hymns and hagiographies, knowledge which allows us a much deeper appreciation and understanding of the scriptures. For example, were you aware that the man born blind who Jesus healed in John 9 was actually born without eyes, and when Jesus spat on the ground and made mud to annoint his eyes, He was making him new eyes in the same manner in which he made Adam in the garden of Eden. When you read the passage with this knowledge it becomes clear why people struggled to recognise him and why it was such a huge deal in contrast to the other times Jesus healed blind people.
This is knowledge handed down by the Church.
No where are we at ALL given ANY indication that Joseph was previously married in fact it is HIGHLY unlikely.
There are a number of indications that Jesus' brethren were older than He was, which could only be if Joseph already had children when Mary was betrothed to him.
Your failure to understand Jewish culture leads you down paths of foolishness.

FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS MOTHER AND FATHER.

Joseph was poor and came from a poor family. The FATHER of the family would tell his son when he could marry and it wasn't until the son could provide for his wife.

Joseph was a Jew NOT a gentile and he lived in a Torah observant Israel in the 1st century. He would have, have to have had a home and enough money to support a wife and being that he was a "handy man" his earning would have been meager and it would have taken YEARS to have enough money set aside to start a family.
Okay, now back up each of your above claims from scripture. Seriously, do try.

I might also add that while Joseph was not a wealthy man, he was a tradie, and tradies are always in demand. Every time a house was built, a carpenter was needed. Every time someone needed furniture or had furniture in need of repair, a carpenter was required. He could have made a very comfortable living, but the scriptures describe him as a righteous man, so he likely did some of his work free or cheaply for those who couldn't afford it.
Stop looking at scripture through the gentile world in a modern setting!
Funnily enough, that is exactly what I would describe you as doing.
 
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