Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

[TheBarrd]

Of course the Most Holy Virgin Mary remained a pure human being, without being in touch with sin. Yes, she was born in sin like all of us but whe was cleansed by the Holy Spirit, so she remained sinless until the moment when Her Dormition occured, and She was bodily assumed into Heaven.

The protestant churches have no Holy Tradition, so they can't know this because they have lost touch with the teachings of the Church of Christ, because in the Bible the Virgin Mary is barely mentioned, but the Holy Tradition states it clearly. Proof of it we have that both the RCC and the EOC have this dogma in their doctrine.

If Mary did have a normal married relationship with her husband, how would that be sin in her? Or in Joseph, for that matter?
I have always wondered about this. How would having sex with her husband be sin?

 

[Standing Up]

If Mary did have a normal married relationship with her husband, how would that be sin in her? Or in Joseph, for that matter?
I have always wondered about this. How would having sex with her husband be sin?

Good catch.

That's one reason Jerome invented the "cousin theory" to account for Jesus' brothers. If Mary was sinless, so too should Joseph be; that is, no prior consummated marriage, let alone children from the previous marriage! Imagine the scandal

 

[prodromos]

If Mary did have a normal married relationship with her husband, how would that be sin in her? Or in Joseph, for that matter?
I have always wondered about this. How would having sex with her husband be sin?

Where in his post did he say Mary having a sexual relationship would be sin?

 

[TheBarrd]

I frankly do not believe that Mary and Joseph did not have a perfectly normal married life, complete with kids. As someone else said, it's none of our business. It is enough for us that she was a virgin right up to the moment the Son of God was born. If you think she was still a virgin after that, I would suggest you read up on just what is involved in giving birth.
There is nothing sinful about a man and his wife having sex.

 

[prodromos]

There is nothing sinful about a man and his wife having sex.

Who has suggested otherwise?

 

[TheBarrd]

Then why all the hoop te doo about their private lives?
Why the dogged insistence that Mary be "ever virgin" and the rest of the children must be "cousins" or "step brothers" or something other than full blooded brothers and sisters?
Why worry about it at all? It is enough of a miracle that a young virgin gave birth to the Son of God. As far as I know, the Bible is silent on what kind of married life she had after that. Evidently God also thinks it is none of our business... Let's quit trying to peek behind the curtain...

 

[Wryetui]

It is very important. As the priests say in every sunday on the Divine Liturgy:

"Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed, glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary"

Mary was the mother of God, as so, she had to be the purest of all the creatures that God created, Her body was intact before and after birth, she didn't become dirty, never, not even death touched her because she was bodily-taken to Heaven.

 

[TheBarrd]

It is very important. As the priests say in every sunday on the Divine Liturgy:

"Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed, glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary"

Mary was the mother of God, as so, she had to be the purest of all the creatures that God created, Her body was intact before and after birth, she didn't become dirty, never, not even death touched her because she was bodily-taken to Heaven.

That's very pretty, but it doesn't answer my question.
What is "impure" or "dirty" about a husband and a wife making love?

 

[TheBarrd]

You say that it is very important.
Okay...
But why is it so very important?

 

[Wryetui]

Sex is impure even if it's made between a man and a woman. Having "sex" means that Her most precious body was corrupted and this means she was impure. It never happened. We the Orthodox have a beautiful theology that talks about Her. I want you to look at the burning bush in the OT, the one that manifested before Moses. See something? It's a clear allegory of the Virgin Mary. You see, as the fire didn't burn or corrupted the bush, so didn't Christ corrupted Mary's belly while there, that's the pureness of our Most Holy Theotokos. She is very important because She is the strongest mediator between us and Christ, She is the One that took care of God, His Holy Mother, if it wasn't for Her Jesus wouldn't have performed the first miracle. There's an entire theology behind our Most Holy Mother of God, She is my refuge, She prays for us to Her son and She is the most perfect being God created.

 

[TheBarrd]

I'm afraid I do not see sex as being "impure". I see it as a gift from God to be enjoyed between a man and his wife. Of course, like any other gift, it can be abused, or squandered...I suspect it is the most abused of all of God's gifts to us.
However, Wyretui, if you do see it that way, I will not argue with you.
Just remember, dear man, that I was not raised a Catholic, but an Episcopalian. Now that I am grown, I consider myself to be "just a Christian"...."Blissfully Unaffiliated"...

This whole attitude toward sex does bother me...for some reason a woman who has been...say...careless with her sexuality...well, this sin will follow her for as long as she is remembered. How many people remember the sins Paul committed while he was still Saul? Yet we are told that we must not speak against Paul, he is a chosen apostle. Yes, he is...but that doesn't change the fact that he was a murderer. Why is the church so willing to forgive murder...but they still want to stone a woman who has had sex?

 

[Standing Up]

Where in his post did he say Mary having a sexual relationship would be sin?

See post #310.

 

[Standing Up]

It is very important. As the priests say in every sunday on the Divine Liturgy:

"Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed, glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary"

Mary was the mother of God, as so, she had to be the purest of all the creatures that God created, Her body was intact before and after birth, she didn't become dirty, never, not even death touched her because she was bodily-taken to Heaven.

You're thinking Mary preexisted God, right?

 

[Wryetui]

How can a God's creature pre-exist God? LOL Earthly-speaking, yes, Mary pre-existed Jesus because she gave birth to Him, but Jesus (God) existed from the beggining of the times so nothing pre-existed Jesus.

 

[TheBarrd]

I've never seen anything in my Bible to indicate that Mary was taken bodily into heaven. I know that some folks believe that, but not everyone does.
Personally, I don't know. Do you have any sources I might not know about for this idea?

 

[Wryetui]

The Church from the beggining believes that, because the Holy Tradition informates us in that sense. The Holy Tradition is the other part of the Church, the Roman-Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have this Holy Tradition, the teachings that were transmitted through the years and are alive in the Church, and weren't written in the Bible, so our teachings are 50% Holy Scripture and 50% Holy Tradition, because they can't go on without each other, altough, the Holy Tradition is older than the Bible. When Mary "died", the Apostle Thomas wasn't there, and when he came back he wanted to see Her one more time, but when they opened the grave (as with Jesus) they saw that she wasn't there anymore! As proof we don't have any graves or bones for Jesus neither for His Mother, and I think those would have been preserved given their importance. There are many things that are not in the Bible, if we would only guide by the Bible and outside the Church, everyone would interpret it in his own manner and we would have chaos (as it's happening in the more of the 2000 protestant denominations) but the EOC never split, it remained the same for more than 2000 years, since it's beggining at the Pentecost. For example, the Trinity, that dogma isn't in the Bible either, but rather was established by the Church Fathers later on, on the synods, so the same with our Most Holy Theotokos.

 

[TheBarrd]

So, you are saying that your source is church tradition. Well, that's fine, for the members of your church.
However, you do know that, in the case of the RCC, it was "church tradition" that caused things like the Inquisitions. There is still a lot of bad feelings from those terrible days.
Yes, I know that the EOC was never involved in that particular nastiness...from what little I know of the EOC, it was never involved in any such thing.
Still, you can't blame the rest of Christendom for being a tad leery of "tradition"...

EDIT:
I, for one, would not care to find myself on a rack for daring to think that Mary might have had a normal married life with her husband.

 

[Wryetui]

Well, we and the Catholic Church had the same tradition until 1054 and we stillshare the majority of it, but I am afraid to said that the Inquisition and the Crusades were mere political stuff by a wicked government and because of the corrupted Vatican. You are right, the EOC was never involved in something like that, actually the EOC suffered because of the RCC too in that period.

 

[TheBarrd]

Well, we and the Catholic Church had the same tradition until 1054 and we stillshare the majority of it, but I am afraid to said that the Inquisition and the Crusades were mere political stuff by a wicked government and because of the corrupted Vatican. You are right, the EOC was never involved in something like that, actually the EOC suffered because of the RCC too in that period.

Exactly so. That sort of "political stuff" is never really about "defending the faith"...rather, it is about POWER...who has it, who wants it, and who thinks they are strong enough to take it by force. This was never Christ's way.
Still, you must realize..."church tradition" lost it's credibility for the rest of Christendom.
As I say...I would not want to end up on a rack for the crime of believing that Mary had a normal married life with her husband...

 

[seashale76]

I've never seen anything in my Bible to indicate that Mary was taken bodily into heaven. I know that some folks believe that, but not everyone does.
Personally, I don't know. Do you have any sources I might not know about for this idea?

Actually, Wreytui did not present the Orthodox position on the matter in his post. We very much believe that the Theotokos died- however- her body was taken to heaven after. We Orthodox believe in her dormition (falling asleep). It is only some Catholics that believe in her assumption (that she didn't actually die).

We believe that the Theotokos is the ideal Christian- having reached theosis/salvation.