If you believe the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned...

[Soulx3]

The following questions are addressed to those who believe the Blessed Virgin Mary actively sinned. What are your answers?

• Why did the prophet, Isaiah, refer to Mary by the title "the virgin" as opposed to "a virgin," if Her virginal vow was to be temporary?
• Why did Mary need to be a virgin in order to conceive and raise God Incarnate?
• Why did Mary ask the angel, Gabriel, "How is this possible when I know not man?" when She was already married by that time, and if you believe Her and Joseph were having intercourse?
• Why did God have the Ark of the Covenant be made with the purest materials to carry the written Word, but had an impure ark (Mary) carry the Word made flesh?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I answered this in the other thread but...

Calling Mary "the virgin" is only to distinguish her from all other virgins as in context he is prophesying about her future role. In that context, she is "the virgin." The one and only virgin who will give birth to the Messiah. It's just an article. It says nothing about the length of her virginity nor are we told Mary took a permanent vow of virginity. Luke's narrative says Joseph did not consummate the marriage "till" (until) after Jesus was born. Some of their children are later mentioned by name. Yes, Catholics argue that "till" doesn't necessary mean "until" and that those children could have been cousins or adopted children from Joseph, but a natural reading of Scripture would lead you to conclude they did have children after Jesus through the normal means. It is only if you presuppose Mary would not have other children that you then try and come up with other possible explanations. Those explanations don't prove your case. They only leave you with some alternatives but none that can be proven. Since it is normal and natural for a married couple to have children, and we are not told explicitly they did not, a natural understanding is that they did.

God chose for a virgin to bear His Son. No doubt to prove it was a miraculous event. No other virgin in the history of mankind will ever conceive without a man. Did she have to be a virgin? I don't see that she had to be but I can understand God's choice. Regardless, she did not have to remain a virgin.

You are incorrect in saying Mary was married at the time she talked to Gabriel. "Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph". Mary was engaged to Joseph, not married. They were not having intercourse as they were not yet married.

While the materials used for the Ark were of high quality, that does not mean they were 100% pure. Gold can be refined for purity but we cannot make it 100% pure. Not with current technology and certainly not in Biblical times. I'm not sure there is even such a thing as wood purity. Absence of knots? The materials were of high quality and the best they could do at the time. Mary was of fine quality spiritually. She was a virtuous woman. Was she as pure as could be? Even one sin keeps us from being pure and Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us. Was she a virtuous woman? No doubt! I doubt there was a finer woman alive but that still does not make her perfectly pure no more than the materials of the Ark were perfectly pure. They weren't.

 

[TPop]

The following questions are addressed to those who believe the Blessed Virgin Mary actively sinned. What are your answers?

• Why did the prophet, Isaiah, refer to Mary by the title "the virgin" as opposed to "a virgin," if Her virginal vow was to be temporary?
• Why did Mary need to be a virgin in order to conceive and raise God Incarnate?
• Why did Mary ask the angel, Gabriel, "How is this possible when I know not man?" when She was already married by that time, and if you believe Her and Joseph were having intercourse?
• Why did God have the Ark of the Covenant be made with the purest materials to carry the written Word, but had an impure ark (Mary) carry the Word made flesh?

Poor premise to start with.

I have never heard anyone stay mary 'activly' sinned. This makes it sound as if Mary lived in Sin.
What people typically believe is that Mary never sinned and did not need a savior. Or Mary was a sinner just like us and needed a savior just like us.

1- The Virgin and her integrity contrasts with those that magnify themselves instead of magnifying God.
2- Because that is what God declared. To demonstrate his sovereignty.
3- You need to do a little research on Jewish marriages at the time. Once betrothed, the husband worked for a year and was not with his wife during this time. He build in order to take care of her. And then, after a year, if she was found with child, he could divorce her 'without guilt' knowing he and she had never consummated the marriage as yet.
4- The Ark was made with the purest materials available to man. Not the purest available to God.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Soulx3]

I have never heard anyone stay mary 'activly' sinned. This makes it sound as if Mary lived in Sin.

I did not say that the Blessed Virgin Mary did in fact actively sin, and thus meaning She lived a sinful life. My questions were directed at those who do say that. What I do say is that Mary is so perfect as to be second to God. Jesus is God Incarnate. He referred to Himself as God in various ways multiple times. Even the Pharisees understood that He did, which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." Mary conceived and carried God Incarnate. Now, only a High Priest was allowed behind the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for humanity. Would one not have to be so perfect, to the point of being second to God, in order to carry and raise God Incarnate on earth, the most Holy and Perfect One, and offer God the Son to God the Father as sacrifice for humanity?

3- You need to do a little research on Jewish marriages at the time. Once betrothed, the husband worked for a year and was not with his wife during this time. He build in order to take care of her. And then, after a year, if she was found with child, he could divorce her 'without guilt' knowing he and she had never consummated the marriage as yet.

Actually, in Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together, not before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse. Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage.

 

[TPop]

What?

• Why did the prophet, Isaiah, refer to Mary by the title "the virgin" as opposed to "a virgin," if Her virginal vow was to be temporary?
• Why did Mary need to be a virgin in order to conceive and raise God Incarnate?
• Why did Mary ask the angel, Gabriel, "How is this possible when I know not man?" when She was already married by that time, and if you believe Her and Joseph were having intercourse?
• Why did God have the Ark of the Covenant be made with the purest materials to carry the written Word, but had an impure ark (Mary) carry the Word made flesh?

You make statements. People respond. You change the context in new statements that go against your previous statements.
Is this all so you can demonstrate what? You ask leading questions to teach people and show your wisdom? It's not a good way to do it. Teachers do it in person, and then they answer their own questions. It does not work properly on a forum board.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Soulx3]

I have never heard anyone stay mary 'activly' sinned. This makes it sound as if Mary lived in Sin.

I did not say that the Blessed Virgin Mary did in fact actively sin, and thus meaning She lived a sinful life. My questions were directed at those who do say that. What I do say is that Mary is so perfect as to be second to God. Jesus is God Incarnate. He referred to Himself as God in various ways multiple times. Even the Pharisees understood that He did, which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." Mary conceived and carried God Incarnate. Now, only a High Priest was allowed behind the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for humanity. Would one not have to be so perfect, to the point of being second to God, in order to carry and raise God Incarnate on earth, the most Holy and Perfect One, and offer God the Son to God the Father as sacrifice for humanity?

You make statements. People respond. You change the context in new statements that go against your previous statements.

False. I stated that Mary and Joseph were already married when the angel, Gabriel, spoke to Her. I posed a question to those who believe Joseph and Mary were having intercourse as a married couple at the time Gabriel spoke to Mary. In my next post, I addressed your accusation that I haven't done research on Jewish marriages at the time, and your belief that marriages were consummated by sexual intercourse in ancient days. In actuality, I already have done research, and again, in Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together, not before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse. Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage for God.

 

[TPop]

I did not say that the Blessed Virgin Mary did in fact actively sin, and thus meaning She lived a sinful life. My questions were directed at those who do say that. What I do say is that Mary is so perfect as to be second to God. Jesus is God Incarnate. He referred to Himself as God in various ways multiple times. Even the Pharisees understood that He did, which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." Mary conceived and carried God Incarnate. Now, only a High Priest was allowed behind the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for humanity. Would one not have to be so perfect, to the point of being second to God, in order to carry and raise God Incarnate on earth, the most Holy and Perfect One, and offer God the Son to God the Father as sacrifice for humanity?



I said Mary and Joseph were already married when the angel, Gabriel, spoke to Her. I didn't say they were having intercourse as a married couple at that time. I posed a question to those who believe Joseph and Mary were having intercourse at the time Gabriel spoke to Mary. In my next post, I addressed your accusation that I haven't done research on Jewish marriages at the time, but in actuality I have. Again, in Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage. So, your new accusation that I went against a previous statement of mine is false as well.

You have a fun time discussing things with yourself then.
No real point in responding to you in the first play let alone any more.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Soulx3]

You have a fun time discussing things with yourself then.
No real point in responding to you in the first play let alone any more.

Your bow out has been duly noted.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I did not say that the Blessed Virgin Mary did in fact actively sin, and thus meaning She lived a sinful life. My questions were directed at those who do say that. What I do say is that Mary is so perfect as to be second to God. Jesus is God Incarnate. He referred to Himself as God in various ways multiple times. Even the Pharisees understood that He did, which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." Mary conceived and carried God Incarnate. Now, only a High Priest was allowed behind the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for humanity. Would one not have to be so perfect, to the point of being second to God, in order to carry and raise God Incarnate on earth, the most Holy and Perfect One, and offer God the Son to God the Father as sacrifice for humanity?



False. I stated that Mary and Joseph were already married when the angel, Gabriel, spoke to Her. I posed a question to those who believe Joseph and Mary were having intercourse as a married couple at the time Gabriel spoke to Mary. In my next post, I addressed your accusation that I haven't done research on Jewish marriages at the time, and your belief that marriages were consummated by sexual intercourse in ancient days. In actuality, I already have done research, and again, in Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together, not before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse. Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage for God.

Mary and Joseph were betrothed. Betrothal was a period of a year in which vows were exchanged and the woman stayed in her father's house until the year was up, when a marriage ceremony would take place and then the couple would live together. They were considered married during the bethrothal period and it took a bill of divorce to end the bethrothal. However, they did not have relations during the betrothal. That did not take place until after the marriage ceremony. During the betrothal period, the husband was to establish a home for the two of them to live in after the marriage ceremony.

Luke's narrative says Gabriel came to Mary while she was betrothed to Joseph. They had not yet had the wedding ceremony also meaning they were not yet having sexual relations. Mary even asks Gabriel how this can come to be since she "knows not a man." She and Joseph had not yet had the marriage ceremony and so were not having relations. How then was she to become pregnant she asked?

In Matthew, we get the story from Joseph's perspective:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Notice it says "Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph." They had not yet had the wedding. It adds "but before they came together" which makes sense since sex did not take place until after the wedding. They were considered married but in the bethrothal period where sex was not allowed. It goes on to say "she was found to be pregnant." This means that her pregnancy began before she and Joseph had married (had the wedding ceremony ending the betrothal period) which is why Joseph was planning to quietly divorce her since he did not yet know how she came to be pregnant.

You state "not before Her and Josephy began to have sexual intercourse." You are suggesting they could have been having sex since they were married but had "mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage for God." That is not what Scripture says. They were still in the betrothal period where sexual relations were forbidden. Scripture says nothing about them having mutually decided to refrain from sex even after they were married (had the ceremony) and for life. They weren't yet having sex because it was forbidden for a betrothed couple to have sex. Mary was pregnant with Jesus during the betrothal period. Immediately after Joseph is told in a dream to take Mary as his wife (i.e. have the wedding ceremony), he does so. At that point, she is already pregnant.

This account is proof that they did not have sexual relations during the betrothal period of their marriage. That was normal and expected and not the result of any joint decision or vow. Yes, they had to jointly decide to obey the prohibition against sex during the betrothal but that was not unique to Mary and Joseph. All Jewish couples had to make that decision. There is nothing in Scripture that states they took a vow or made a decision to not have sex after the marriage ceremony. That they waited until after Jesus was born was normal but there was nothing prohibiting them from having sexual relations after Jesus' birth as they had gone through the marriage ceremony by then.

 

[Soulx3]

Mary and Joseph were betrothed. Betrothal was a period of a year in which vows were exchanged and the woman stayed in her father's house until the year was up, when a marriage ceremony would take place and then the couple would live together. They were considered married during the bethrothal period and it took a bill of divorce to end the bethrothal. However, they did not have relations during the betrothal. That did not take place until after the marriage ceremony. During the betrothal period, the husband was to establish a home for the two of them to live in after the marriage ceremony.

Luke's narrative says Gabriel came to Mary while she was betrothed to Joseph. They had not yet had the wedding ceremony also meaning they were not yet having sexual relations. Mary even asks Gabriel how this can come to be since she "knows not a man." She and Joseph had not yet had the marriage ceremony and so were not having relations. How then was she to become pregnant she asked?

In Matthew, we get the story from Joseph's perspective:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Notice it says "Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph." They had not yet had the wedding. It adds "but before they came together" which makes sense since sex did not take place until after the wedding. They were considered married but in the bethrothal period where sex was not allowed. It goes on to say "she was found to be pregnant." This means that her pregnancy began before she and Joseph had married (had the wedding ceremony ending the betrothal period) which is why Joseph was planning to quietly divorce her since he did not yet know how she came to be pregnant.

You state "not before Her and Josephy began to have sexual intercourse." You are suggesting they could have been having sex since they were married but had "mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage for God." That is not what Scripture says. They were still in the betrothal period where sexual relations were forbidden. Scripture says nothing about them having mutually decided to refrain from sex even after they were married (had the ceremony) and for life. They weren't yet having sex because it was forbidden for a betrothed couple to have sex. Mary was pregnant with Jesus during the betrothal period. Immediately after Joseph is told in a dream to take Mary as his wife (i.e. have the wedding ceremony), he does so. At that point, she is already pregnant.

This account is proof that they did not have sexual relations during the betrothal period of their marriage. That was normal and expected and not the result of any joint decision or vow. Yes, they had to jointly decide to obey the prohibition against sex during the betrothal but that was not unique to Mary and Joseph. All Jewish couples had to make that decision. There is nothing in Scripture that states they took a vow or made a decision to not have sex after the marriage ceremony. That they waited until after Jesus was born was normal but there was nothing prohibiting them from having sexual relations after Jesus' birth as they had gone through the marriage ceremony by then.

Actually, in Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost," the meaning is "Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together," not "Mary conceived before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse," and thus this verse shouldn't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage.

Nowhere in any of the writings of God that make up the New Testament does it say Joseph and Mary had intercourse at any point after they married. However, other writings from God show that they mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage for God.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Actually, in Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost," the meaning is "Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together," not "Mary conceived before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse," and thus this verse shouldn't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage.

Nowhere in any of the writings of God that make up the New Testament does it say Joseph and Mary had intercourse at any point after they married. However, other writings from God show that they mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage for God.

This is essentially what you posted before. The couple would not live together until the marriage ceremony (wedding). Once wedded (and living together) they could/would start having relations (sex). Mary and Joseph were still betrothed/engaged at the time Mary came to be pregnant. It is both true that she conceived before they were living together and that she conceived before they were having sex. Mary and Joseph were both virtuous individuals and would not have engaged in sex before their wedding. Most here are arguing Mary was perfect and without sin so they would definitely not believe Mary would have engaged in sex prior to the wedding. So it is proof although I don't understand the relevance of the point you are trying to make.

The NT doesn't usually describe the sex life of its characters so I don't think it would implicitly tell us that Mary and Joseph had intercourse at any point after they married. The lack of an explicit statement does not rule out they didn't. Likewise, there is no statement saying they didn't. There is no stated vow of celibacy. It was normal and natural for a married couple to have children after marriage. I understand some here believe Mary remained a virgin but there is nothing in the text that verifies that. There would have been nothing scandalous or unholy about them having other children. The Bible tells us children are a blessing. Why would not God have wanted Jesus to be in a family with siblings? We have put virginity on a pedestal as though it makes a woman holier when sex during marriage is ordained by God. Gabriel never instructs Mary or Joseph to refrain from sex for life. It would have been normal and natural for them to go on and have other children. Even if Mary had been perfect, she would not have lost that perfection by having other children with Joseph. Not without an explicit command from God not to have other children. Catholics think that Mary's womb was sacred after bearing Jesus and thus could never be demeaned by bearing another child but that is not the teaching of Scripture.

 

[Grafted In]

The following questions are addressed to those who believe the Blessed Virgin Mary actively sinned. What are your answers?

• Why did the prophet, Isaiah, refer to Mary by the title "the virgin" as opposed to "a virgin," if Her virginal vow was to be temporary?
• Why did Mary need to be a virgin in order to conceive and raise God Incarnate?
• Why did Mary ask the angel, Gabriel, "How is this possible when I know not man?" when She was already married by that time, and if you believe Her and Joseph were having intercourse?
• Why did God have the Ark of the Covenant be made with the purest materials to carry the written Word, but had an impure ark (Mary) carry the Word made flesh?

 

[Grafted In]

Mary was "engaged", in modern terms, to Joseph. They were not yet married.

 

[Soulx3]

Mary was "engaged", in modern terms, to Joseph. They were not yet married.

The modern-day definition of "engaged" does not apply to ancient times. In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost," the meaning is "Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together," not "Mary conceived before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse," and thus this verse shouldn't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage.

 

[Soulx3]

This is essentially what you posted before.

And I'll repeat it again because it's the truth. In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost," the meaning is "Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together," not "Mary conceived before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse," and thus this verse shouldn't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage.

• It's not stated in any writings of God that married couples are required to have sexual intercourse and/or procreate.
• It's not stated in any writings of God that a married couple is prohibited from taking a vow of chastity for God.
• It's not stated anywhere in the New Testament that Joseph and Mary had intercourse at any point.
• If you believe Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's half-siblings, I remind you that it's not stated in any writings of God that they were the sons of Joseph and Mary, but rather only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3). In this thread I've provided scriptural verses from the New Testament, in addition to more explicit evidence, that collectively show that they were the sons of Jesus's uncle, Alphaeus (Joseph's brother), and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) who was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law (Jn. 19:25), and were thus His cousins.
• Within Her marriage Mary did carry and give birth to a child: Jesus, God Incarnate, and She and Joseph raised Him as their parents, whilst they both remained virgins for God throughout their marriage, according to other writings of God.

I'm not arguing that it would've been sinful of Mary to procreate because that's false. I'm simply stating that She and Joseph didn't have intercourse and procreate together, because they both took a perpetual vow of chastity for God, yet were still blessed with a child: God Incarnate.​

 

[Grafted In]

She wss espoused to Joseph.
Not married, though a letter of divorcement was needed to remove oneself from this contract.
Joseph had gone to prepare a place for Mary, (sound familiar?) a honeymoon room or home at his father's house. When his father decided that it was finished he'd tell Joseph to get Mary and they would have a wedding ceremony and abide together for 7 days within the honeymoon structure he had prepared for her During this 7 day period the marriage would be consummated.
Intercourse was not permitted prior to the wedding ceremony. Therefore, he never knew Mary prior to her having conceived by the Holy Ghost.
God told Joseph not to fret about Mary being pregnant, that it was by His will and that he would still be marrying a Virgin. Joseph believed God and so God told him to go forward with plans to "take Mary to thy wife". Whether he did so emediately or after a short period of time as he made their honeymoon home just right and then went to get her isn't revealed to me.
I haven't seen anywhere in scripture that he married her as soon as possible, but scripture does say that he did so before she bore Jesus. Then they came together after her purification time and consumated their marriage.
We know from scripture that both Joseph and Mary were persons of faith and so found favor with God.
So, then, scripture does in fact tell us that the couple had sexual relations after they were married and after the birth of Jesus.,
Mathew 1:18-25.

 

[TPop]

And I'll repeat it again because it's the truth. In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost," the meaning is "Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together," not "Mary conceived before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse," and thus this verse shouldn't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage.

• It's not stated in any writings of God that married couples are required to have sexual intercourse and/or procreate.
• It's not stated in any writings of God that a married couple is prohibited from taking a vow of chastity for God.
• It's not stated anywhere in the New Testament that Joseph and Mary had intercourse at any point.
• If you believe Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's half-siblings, I remind you that it's not stated in any writings of God that they were the sons of Joseph and Mary, but rather only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3). In this thread I've provided scriptural verses from the New Testament, in addition to more explicit evidence, that collectively show that they were the sons of Jesus's uncle, Alphaeus (Joseph's brother), and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) who was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law (Jn. 19:25), and were thus His cousins.
• Within Her marriage Mary did carry and give birth to a child: Jesus, God Incarnate, and She and Joseph raised Him as their parents, whilst they both remained virgins for God throughout their marriage, according to other writings of God.

I'm not arguing that it would've been sinful of Mary to procreate because that's false. I'm simply stating that She and Joseph didn't have intercourse and procreate together, because they both took a perpetual vow of chastity for God, yet were still blessed with a child: God Incarnate.​

So now your agenda is finally revealed. Joseph and Mary never had sexual intercourse.
So much obfuscation.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Soulx3]

So now your agenda is finally revealed. Joseph and Mary never had sexual intercourse.
So much obfuscation.

I was responding to arguments from you and others who said they did, as well as made other points.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Actually, in Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost," the meaning is "Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together," not "Mary conceived before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse," and thus this verse shouldn't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage.

Nowhere in any of the writings of God that make up the New Testament does it say Joseph and Mary had intercourse at any point after they married. However, other writings from God show that they mutually decided to be chaste throughout their marriage for God.

Neither do we have verses saying they didn't have relations during their marriage. I don't accept any writings other than Scripture.

 

[TPop]

And I'll repeat it again because it's the truth. In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage consisted of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where we read, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child by the Holy Ghost," the meaning is "Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together," not "Mary conceived before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse," and thus this verse shouldn't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage.

• It's not stated in any writings of God that married couples are required to have sexual intercourse and/or procreate.
• It's not stated in any writings of God that a married couple is prohibited from taking a vow of chastity for God.
• It's not stated anywhere in the New Testament that Joseph and Mary had intercourse at any point.
• If you believe Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's half-siblings, I remind you that it's not stated in any writings of God that they were the sons of Joseph and Mary, but rather only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3). In this thread I've provided scriptural verses from the New Testament, in addition to more explicit evidence, that collectively show that they were the sons of Jesus's uncle, Alphaeus (Joseph's brother), and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) who was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law (Jn. 19:25), and were thus His cousins.
• Within Her marriage Mary did carry and give birth to a child: Jesus, God Incarnate, and She and Joseph raised Him as their parents, whilst they both remained virgins for God throughout their marriage, according to other writings of God.

I'm not arguing that it would've been sinful of Mary to procreate because that's false. I'm simply stating that She and Joseph didn't have intercourse and procreate together, because they both took a perpetual vow of chastity for God, yet were still blessed with a child: God Incarnate.​

It is not truth.

It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Jesus’ mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life. Is this concept biblical? Before we look at specific Scriptures, it is important to understand why the Roman Catholic Church believes in the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Roman Catholic Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" and "Queen of Heaven." Catholics believe Mary to have an exalted place in Heaven, with the closest access to Jesus and God the Father. Such a concept is nowhere taught in Scripture. Further, even if Mary did occupy such an exalted position, her having sexual intercourse would not have prevented her from gaining such a position. Sex in marriage is not sinful. Mary would have in no way defiled herself by having sexual relations with Joseph her husband. The entire concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary is based on an unbiblical teaching, Mary as Queen of Heaven, and on an unbiblical understanding of sex.

So, what does the Bible say about the perpetual virginity of Mary? Using the New American Bible, which is a Catholic translation, we can see that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not taught in the Bible. Matthew 1:25 NAB tells us, "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus." He, Joseph, did not have sexual relations with her, Mary, UNTIL after she bore a son, Jesus." The meaning of this Scripture is abundantly clear. Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations until after Jesus was born. Matthew 13:55-56 NAB declares, "Is He not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Are not His sisters all with us?" Catholics claim, correctly, that the Greek terms for "brothers" and "sisters" in these verses could also refer to male and female relatives, not necessarily literal brothers and sisters. However, the intended meaning is clear, they thought Jesus to be Joseph’s son, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas, and the brother of the unnamed and unnumbered sisters. Father, mother, brother, sister. It is straining the meaning of the text to interpret “brothers” and “sisters” as "cousins" or "relatives" with the mentioning of Jesus’ mother and father.

Matthew 12:46 NAB tells us, "While He was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and His brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with Him." See also Mark 3:31-34; Luke 8:19-21; John 2:12; and Acts 1:14. All mention Jesus’ mother with His brothers. If they were His cousins, or the sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, why were they mentioned with Mary so often? The idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary cannot be drawn from Scripture. It must be forced on Scripture, in contradiction to what the Scriptures clearly state.

Peace and Blessings