You left out this part:
And Mary said, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." And the angel departed from her. -Luke 1:38
I believe God knew she would be consenting, and that's why He chose her. I doubt He would have chosen someone who would object.Only because it wasn't relevant. God had already decided what was going to happened. It doesn't matter if she agreed to it or not. Christ was going to be born, of Mary the virgin. It's great she was ok with it after hearing what was going to happen but she had no choice whether she would get pregnant with Christ or not.
This certainly isn't rape but God does make decisions without asking us if it's ok.
I believe God knew she would be consenting, and that's why He chose her. I doubt He would have chosen someone who would object.
That is a lot of reading into the story of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar. Raped? How do you know that? The Bible doesn't say that.Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly, and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her.
Only because it wasn't relevant.
God had already decided what was going to happened.
It doesn't matter if she agreed to it or not.
Christ was going to be born, of Mary the virgin.
It's great she was ok with it after hearing what was going to happen but she had no choice whether she would get pregnant with Christ or not.
This certainly isn't rape but God does make decisions without asking us if it's ok.
Only because it wasn't relevant. God had already decided what was going to happened. It doesn't matter if she agreed to it or not. Christ was going to be born, of Mary the virgin. It's great she was ok with it after hearing what was going to happen but she had no choice whether she would get pregnant with Christ or not.
This certainly isn't rape but God does make decisions without asking us if it's ok.
I get the impression this question is more about left wing liberalism being applied to the bible than anything else. Maybe if it happened today she would have had Jesus aborted..
So tell me, did Mary get a say in being impregnated? Because sometimes that part of the story just reads like get gets told that she'll be getting pregnant now, and, well, sure, she does say later on, "Okay, let it be so," that part of her response seems pretty inconsequential given the fact that she's already been told that it's going to happen regardless.
Believe me, I have a burning desire to want Mary to have agency. She did say, "Let it be according to your word." I want to let her yes be yes! What an empowering story that one would be, and what a deep and meaningful testament to the trust Mary had in God! Being pregnant was even more dangerous then than it is today. To top it off, being unwed and pregnant? And all that traveling. God didn't put her in an easy position, that's for sure. But she trusted God. And goodness knows the good book needs a woman or two with agency!
Her "Let it be according to your word," doesn't feel like consent. It feels like the child who pretends to be asleep when her dad comes into her room at night because she knows there's nothing she can do to stop what he is about to do anyway... and even if she wanted to try, how would she even begin to say "no" when they are on such unequal playing fields; she doesn't have the language yet to describe what he is doing.
How much did Mary know of the OT God? I'm not sure I know a lot about her regarding what education she would have had? Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly, and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her. She ran away and what did God do? God said, "Go back to the place where you get hurt." Where women do come up in the OT, it's no secret that they are generally either "vessels" or they meet unpleasant ends (or maybe both!) Would Mary have felt like she had any power to say "no" to a God who the OT credits with some pretty... strong... punishments?
So what is there to take away from that passage that just seems to be Mary being taken advantage of/being reduced to a vessel. I get the whole theme of obedience and all but the annunciation bit itself really still eats at me.
Perhaps but my responses are just based on the text. No consent was sought. The angel simply told her what was going to happen
Perhaps but my responses are just based on the text. No consent was sought. The angel simply told her what was going to happen
I am surprised anyone who has read their Bible from Genesis to Revelations would derive from it that God is a God who cares about your consent. Yes He loves us, and yes He is compassionate towards us, but when He wants His righteous will done, He is not taking no for an answer. For all those saying God seeks our consent, I would have to think they have not read the book of Jonah and seen how Jonah's will was treated when it contravened God's.
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?” (Daniel 4:35)
Again: "Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases." (Psalms 115:3)
"Many are the plans in the mind of a man,but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. (Proverbs 19:21)
He does not ask consent for your existence, your salvation, your condemnation, your place or time of birth, your strengths or your weaknesses, your gifts or your deficits, or anything else. As much as He loves us, He is God and we are not, and we are regarded exactly as we are. All we are, and all of our value, is derived from God, so that it is utter nonsense and self-defeating to appeal against God by employing aspects of our being that could only be established by Him. In extension, that is to say that if He has not ascribed to us something we simply do not have it; it is an illusion and inflation of ourselves.
I would remind anyone inclined to thinking that God is particularly concerned with your will to again consider the case of Jonah, among many others in the Scriptures. Even better, think of yourself and the fact that Jesus is your Lord and not your co-pilot, and that all who come to Him do so on His terms and under His power and not yours.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
So tell me, did Mary get a say in being impregnated? Because sometimes that part of the story just reads like get gets told that she'll be getting pregnant now, and, well, sure, she does say later on, "Okay, let it be so," that part of her response seems pretty inconsequential given the fact that she's already been told that it's going to happen regardless.
Believe me, I have a burning desire to want Mary to have agency. She did say, "Let it be according to your word." I want to let her yes be yes! What an empowering story that one would be, and what a deep and meaningful testament to the trust Mary had in God! Being pregnant was even more dangerous then than it is today. To top it off, being unwed and pregnant? And all that traveling. God didn't put her in an easy position, that's for sure. But she trusted God. And goodness knows the good book needs a woman or two with agency!
Her "Let it be according to your word," doesn't feel like consent. It feels like the child who pretends to be asleep when her dad comes into her room at night because she knows there's nothing she can do to stop what he is about to do anyway... and even if she wanted to try, how would she even begin to say "no" when they are on such unequal playing fields; she doesn't have the language yet to describe what he is doing.
How much did Mary know of the OT God? I'm not sure I know a lot about her regarding what education she would have had? Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly, and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her. She ran away and what did God do? God said, "Go back to the place where you get hurt." Where women do come up in the OT, it's no secret that they are generally either "vessels" or they meet unpleasant ends (or maybe both!) Would Mary have felt like she had any power to say "no" to a God who the OT credits with some pretty... strong... punishments?
So what is there to take away from that passage that just seems to be Mary being taken advantage of/being reduced to a vessel. I get the whole theme of obedience and all but the annunciation bit itself really still eats at me.
Responses to this thread so far have ducked 2 important facts about Mary:
(I) It is unlikely that she was a well grounded in Scriptures at the time of her impregnation. By Jewish custom, Mary was likely a naïve, innocent, and illiterate young girl, 13-16 years of age, when she gets engaged to Joseph. Jewish girls did not receive an education in Torah like the boys. In fact, one ancient rabbinic tradition treaches that to teach woman Torah is like teaching them obscenity!
(2) The angel never asks for Mary's permission for the divine impregnation (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:31). Rather, she gladly consents to already accomplished impregnation after learning about its divine purpose (Luke 1:38); and God surely ordained Jesus to have a godly willing mother.
We don't know that Mary was naive, or the extent to which she may have been if she was. While she may not have been able to read or write, this doesn't mean she was also culturally illiterate. She had affiliation with Elizabeth, the wife of Zacharias the priest, and we don't know how much advantage Mary may have derived from that relationship in knowing about the things of God, or from the relationship she had with her own mother, being that young Jewish girls usually DID learn from their mothers and other Jewish women. I for one wouldn't think Mary's knowledge about God's Will, or as to what that means, would be 'nil.'
Thus, I don't think the Annunciation would have been completely unintelligible to Mary, even if it was extremely surprising to her, I'm sure. She wouldn't have been cowering in a dark corner in a fetal position when Gabrielle showed up, shouting out, "Oh God, NO! Oh God, NO! Please, NO!" More likely, she would have been experiencing a state of the numinous that would have placed her on her knees in a state of awe before the Angel, Gabrielle, while she pondered the message being delivered to her. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking she was just some dumb little girl that God wrenched out of an otherwise peaceful village life, forcing His Will upon her without a gracious thought of love and care or as to the humble state in which she was at the time ...
So there appears to be a lot of the old self , old prejudices, to be dealt with.
Until that happens, it is not likely that pure heart and wholesome understanding is possible, is it ?
Mary was very cognizant of TORAH, and of YAHWEH (more than anyone here today).
Yes, she like all the other believers serving Yahweh serve Yahweh with totally willing joyousness, even unto martyrdom/ death.
This is the truth about all the Apostles and disciples also - when Jesus calls a man, He calls him to die. Most people are not willing even just to give up family in order to enter heaven, let alone to give up their lives,
even though the alternative is much worse than any horror movie.
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