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Featured Did Mary consent to being impregnated?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by cirrutopia, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Not so much brevity as that the audience already understood the context.
     
  2. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    If she were a person who would object, she would have been the wrong person to approach.

    When I was active duty, there were frequently tasks that were tough and unpleasant but would result in significant reward later for the person who accomplished it. I could consider my people and estimate pretty well who would be willing--as well as who would best excel and then best profit from the opportunity--and choose the right person.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Amen. Like for we who are disciples today - when we became followers of Yeshua, immersed inHim, we declared THOU ART MASTER at that time (and SAVIOR),
    and ANYTHING HE tells us to do after that is expected to be done willingly, with joy and whole-heartedly, even unto suffering and death and loss of everything.

    We said "YES MASTER!" , in grace by faith, His Gift, once for all time,
    no matter what He tells us to DO, where to GO.
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    According to the text and customs of righteous followers of Yahweh,
    she was already devoted to Yahweh, to serving Him faithfully all of her life,
    more than anyone you know today.

    Same with other followers of Yeshua in the New Testament - some or many were raised right also, and no lie was found in their lips, they would not willfully commit sin nor rebel against Yahweh nor against man.
    They were called at times "blameless" before Yahweh (God), by Yahweh(His Judgment of their Righteousness and Faithfulness) not like the majority of people today all around, even with grace!
     
  5. Thir7ySev3n

    Thir7ySev3n Psalm 139

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    This reads more like a prepared generic response to a Calvinist than anything at all that I wrote. There is no incoherence between admitting both human free will and God's disregard for that will when it contravenes His own. That is to say, for example, Jonah is free to will not to go to Ninevah, but that doesn't require God to ask his consent, which He didn't. We are not asked about where we want to be born and when, of what ethnicity, with what gifts and deficits, etc. God simply imposes those constraints on us, and we are free to be grateful for God's wisdom or to despise it. That's the part that both Biblically and naturally we can apprehend God doesn't care about. He does as He wills, and allows us to have a competing will, but doesn't permit us to contravene it when He decrees that something will be done. For example: "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27)."

    How many neither want to die nor receive judgment? See where that gets them. How many want to have their own way to God? See where the Bible says they're headed. Where did Jonah not want to go? Where did he end up? Complain to God, "why did you make me this way?" You'll just kick against the goads.
     
  6. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    I didn't say our will "contravenes" God's. It absolutely does not. We are accountable for our choices and how we exercise our free will, however, because God in His infinite wisdom created us with the ability to choose Him.

    And I never said otherwise. God is sovereign and just, He is also compassionate, merciful, forgiving, gracious and relational. Scripture calls us God's "children" for a reason.

    And in Christ we are reconciled to the Father and can come boldly before the throne of Grace. So, we should not see God as distant and impersonal.

    There is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ.

    Saved, born again believers are "headed" for eternity with God.

    Yes, we can (and likely all have) at one point or another complained against or questioned God. (Unless we're just being dishonest with ourselves.

    Nothing changes the fact that He loved the world enough to send His only begotten Son, and that He desires that none should perish.

    We should be careful to remember that while He is absolutely sovereign, Holy, righteous and just, He is also forgiving, slow to anger, compassionate and merciful to us in Jesus Christ.

    And He is not distant, aloof or uncaring. As we know, in the Word become "flesh" Who dwelt among us, we have a Saviour who absolutely and completely understands our struggles. Who was tempted in every way, just as we are, and was yet without sin. Jesus Christ calls us to Himself, to rest in Him.

    In the Gospel of our salvation, we rejoice in this Hope.

    God bless.
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Of course Mary consented:

    "And Mary said, 'Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.' And the angel departed from her." - Luke 1:38

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Without a channel for celibacy (such as monasticism) women, by and large, had only one option in Protestant circles: Wives and mothers.

    If you are aware of something otherwise, I wouldn't mind learning about it.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. Gwen-is-new!

    Gwen-is-new! The Lord is my rock!

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    yucky, repulsive, irreverent
     
  10. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Few of us give consent prior to being called or blessed by God. But the blessed among us acquiesce and/or give grateful thanks when it happens. As did Mary.

    God sets the standards for us. It isn't the other way around.
     
  11. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    There were no Protestant religious orders until the 19th century. The restoration of monasticism in a Protestant church happened in America, in the 19th century, by William Muhlenberg, a German convert to Episcopalianism and a priest who was allied with what later became known as Anglo-Catholicism, a religious movement among Anglicans which rejected much of the Protestant attitudes towards the Catholic past.

    During the Carolignian reign in England prior to the Civil War, there was a house called Little Gilding where Christians lived a cloistered life of prayer together but it was harassed by Puritans and did not endure. With the exception of a few Lutherans in Germany who continued to live as monastics since the Reformation (all monks), Protestants were overwhelmingly opposed to monasticism. The state churches seized the property of monastic houses on trumped up charges of sodomy and corruption, spurned on by propaganda and ideology.

    They were forced to by their circumstances, if they wanted to have a good reputation and even in many cases, food to eat and shelter over their heads. Social welfare did not really exist back then as a right. To be a spinster or widow was a terrible curse, as a result, which is why those terms have such negative conotations even into the present day.

    Worse, a single woman could be accused of witchcraft very easily. Protestants engaged in witch-hunts with more zeal even than Catholics. Luther saw evil spirits everywhere, as did the Reformed churches, perhaps even more. And vulnerable, unmarried women were the easiest scapegoats for anxieties about supernatural evil.

    So your suggestion that Protestant women had options in their life just isn't true. Their destiny was to get married and have alot of kids, or face a harsh and brutal life, quite possibly a short one.

    The death of monasticism did not just effect women of course, it took choices away from men. You started seeing what were called "Sturdy Beggars" in Tudor England. Poor men who previously could join a monastic order or offer to work for a monastery suddenly found a new "vocation", as a highwayman or robber. In addition, many of these same types of men also would later become pirates at sea, indeed, the English were notorious for piracy, government-sanctioned or not. And all so Henry VIII could fatten his purse with the ill-gotten riches taken from the Church.

    Protestantism nearly destroyed the social fabric of many European countries, in many cases the only thing holding it together was the emergence of the new, powerful nation-state that ruled by force and national myth-making.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
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  12. Thir7ySev3n

    Thir7ySev3n Psalm 139

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    Only because you are quoting me can I even tell you are replying to what I've written. It is especially interesting because I agree with everything you are saying and yet you write as though you are arguing my points, which, in the context of what I'm saying, I have not made.

    I never said God was impersonal. In fact, as our heavenly Father we should not be surprised our will is met with many yes's and no's we don't want to hear but receive anyways. We have free will, but God does circumvent that will many times (again, think God forcing Jonah to preach as one powerful example among many; He did not change Jonah's will, He simply disregarded it).

    The next points are a bit silly to be honest, because it is overtly clear what I meant when I explicitly followed the statement about people not wanting to die and be judged with a question about the fate of those who want an alternative to Jesus for salvation. So yes, those in Christ Jesus are saved and headed for the Kingdom of God. It, however, does not argue any point I made considering you are talking about those in Christ while I was talking about those complaining and searching for an alternative to Him outside the faith in that example.

    Yes God loves us and yes He cares about us. I also explicated that prior to making my point about God not ultimately caring about our will when it contravenes His, and God's love and that kind of concern are not the same thing. Many times God will insist on what we don't want, say no to what we do and compel us to go against our baser desires. If we are His children, He will discipline us when we do what we want instead, and if we are not sons and daughters, He will punish us for choosing our own will in eternal separation. Considering those facts, it is clear God does not care what our will is when it is inconsistent with His, because He is far more concerned about your righteousness than your wants to the point of commanding and threatening discipline or condemnation to believers and unbelievers respectively if we insist on our will. Think of the servant who hid His Master's talent in the parable Jesus told in Matthew 25:24-30. Just one example of what God thinks about one whose will it is to be lazy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  13. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    What if those 2 important facts to you, are not in fact facts, rather are two misconceptions based on the lack of information concerning Mary's previous life and so hence you make it a conjecture that she was uneducated and void of any wilful choice.

    More evidence is below.....

    However, Zechariah doesn’t go into his Canticle as directly as Mary does. And this is part of a larger portrayal of Mary in these early chapters as model disciple—one who hears the word of God and acts on it.

    [​IMG]

    In fact, there is a subtle difference between the way in which Zechariah and Mary phrase their questions. Zechariah’s question could be quite literally (if awkwardly) translated as “According to what will I know this?” (1:18); whereas Mary’s question focuses not on how she will know, but simply on how this mysterious birth will come about: “How will this be since I do not know man” (my translation).

    In other words, we can detect a subtle hint of doubt in Zechariah’s question: how can I know this or how can I be certain? For Mary, it’s not so much a matter of how can I know—it’s more “I know this is true because I trust my source, but I’m dumbfounded as to how it will happen.”

    The angel clarifies the contrast we are drawing, by responding to Zechariah this way: “And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe” (1:20). Elizabeth, on the other hand, proclaims Mary’s faith: “Blessed is she who believed that there would be fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord” (1:45).

    Zechariah was made a mute because of his unbelief, yet Mary was lifted up, because she expected it and wanted to know more about how it would come about, rather than why or if it will come about.

    This is a great misconception about Mary. You see if you said Jospeh was poor, simple and uneducated, I would side with you on this claim because of his fearful reactions. Yet Mary when told she was pregnant with the Messiah, was not fearful and was almost expecting a blessing along those lines.

    In Jewish tradition, woman could not become priests, Mary was most certainly reared up by an educated
    Zechariah. Hence she was brought up in the temple of Jerusalem, top university of her day, for special reasons.

    Woman used to give themselves as an offering to God, by serving as temple keepers and cleaners, hence making the temple their very home by sleeping in its quarters. You could say the temple was her convent and she, like John the Baptist's mum was like a nun of the convent. Yes that is right, Mary was literally a nun and she offered herself for God and his works and blessings.

    She was being prepared to become a Lady of God, ready to receive God’s word in her flesh and to educate her precious Son for his historic role. The mother who knew the Hebrew Bible: the Law, the psalms, the stories of Genesis, and who read it all to and discussed it with her precious son.

    It would now seem that Mary lived a hermit and reclusive life, within the temple walls and had given herself to God as is traditionally accepted of women in Judaism. That would explain her lack of surprise in her answer to Gabriel and her lack of fear or apprehension to the idea that she was to be used by God as a vessel for the Lord.

    This is where the geanalogy of Mary comes into play, she knew that the Messiah would come through her lineage and she offered herself, as did the many women before her and the language regarding the other women highly suggested that they too offered themselves, yet God as scripture clearly states chose Mary. If it is written God chose Mary, then there certainly was a lineage of willing women who God could have chosen from, throughout the lineage of David.

    The Angel therefore does not need to ask Mary for her permission, because according to her Jewish Torah knowledge and tradition and genealogy, she had offered her self to God and God chose her out of the women from David down to her, otherwise Matthew's opening genealogy chapter would be meaningless. She was not surprised and she had most certainly expected it and not that she had learnt it only when told by the Angel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
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  14. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Interesting. This was also a time when the expectation of a Messiah who would sweep away the occupiers and clear out the collaborators was pretty much at fever pitch.
     
  15. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    "Let there be Light!"

    Him, Him and only Him!
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    And instead of that

    SURPRISE ! SALVATION COMES !
     
  17. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    What a timing of timing that was, wasn't it!

    This is the awesomeness of God, where he checkmates the enemies and proceeds to silence them forever.

    To God timing is everything.
     
  18. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    So why would Joseph intend initially to divorce her?

    Or are you just ignoring that for your logically superior conclusion?
     
  19. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    This is all pretty off topic. But the issues you bring up definitely have more to do with society, the class system, etc. of the time, and not simply because of Protestantism.

    And monasteries were far from the safe houses you seem to believe they were.

    The truth is women were more vulnerable at that time whether they were Protestant or Catholic.

    So, I stand by my initial point, all the blame for such treatment of and attitudes toward women cannot rightly be attributed to Protestantism. Such things were already a reality long before the Reformation.
     
  20. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Well, as this is off topic, I won't go into it. However, while celibacy may have actually been a truth for many and a choice they were able to live out, it didn't always happen that way.

    There is more than enough historic evidence to show that monastic life was not always what it appeared to be on the surface. And research into such things calls much of what went on in those places into question.

    But that is a topic for another thread.
     
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