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Featured Did Mary consent to being impregnated?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by cirrutopia, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    So by your reckoning, you don't actually know if the whole story of Jesus was not invented.
  2. Colter

    Colter Member

    Christian Seeker
    I believe in Jesus, that he incarnate, that he is the Son of God, lived as a human and divine being, taught his original gospel, was largely rejected by the Jews, laid down his life and returned from the dead after which he returned to his rightful place in heaven. He then pored out his spirit upon all flesh. He is present today with us in spirit and will once again visit our world.

    As for the stories about him I assume that the humans who wrote them were as imperfect as those who follow him. It doesn't really bother me that the Bible book would have flaws.
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

    United States
    How can it be anything other than consent????
  4. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

    There's the definitive answer.
    Her consent was explicit.
  5. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Active Member

    United States
    I think that this is a very important & central issue, well summarized by the above quote of Luke 1:38.

    In the 7th century AD, division arose between the EOC and the OOC over the nature of the union between human & Divine in Jesus Christ.

    The EOC position, of "dyophysitism" (dyo-physis = two-natures), states that Jesus Christ is "two natures [dyo-physis] in one person [prosopon]". The Greek word for "person" [prosopon] literally means "before the eyes" and refers to the ancient emotionally-expressive face masks worn by actors on stage. I think it means "superficial external appearance" as viewed from the outside, what you see before your eyes, prima facie. Accordingly,

    Jesus Christ = human + Divine united showing "one game face" (as it were)​

    Jesus the man from Earth had one terrestrial human nature, which was exposed to Divine Presence via the Holy Spirit (generated by & proceeding) from God in heaven. Jesus the man "psychologically submitted" his human will to Divine Will, saying "not my will but Thy Will be done" (Luke 22:42, Lord's Prayer). Thus, human & Divine came to an "understanding" with Jesus' human nature aware of & consciously choosing to obey Divine Command, such that God in heaven told Jesus on Earth "what to say & how to say it" (John 12:49).

    Now, others have tried to espouse "monophysitism" [mono-physis = one nature], that Jesus' terrestrial human nature was obliterated by Divine Presence "as a drop of vinegar is dissolved in the ocean". According to that picture, Jesus became a "mindless lobotomized zombie" (so to speak) inhabited by a psychologically over-whelming Divine Will that "took over his body & drove it around". This doctrine was declared in error at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD.

    If monophysitism were true, then (insofar as it applicable) how could the Patriarch Abraham have "negotiated with God" about the righteous inhabitants in Sodom (Gen 18)? That would suggest, rather, that Abraham's human nature "bravely questioned" Divine Presence until they reached a new "understanding" (spare the city on account of ten righteous individuals).

    Likewise, Mary consciously submitted her human nature & will to Divine Will, "Thy Will be done". Indeed, all Christians recite the Lord's Prayer, "Thy Will be done". But Christians do not generally claim that their human natures are obliterated and "dissolved like drops of vinegar in the ocean". Rather, their natural human will consciously submits to Divine Will, "Thy Will be done".

    So, I think that Christians have been maintaining a consistent "dyophysite story" (so to speak) since the days of Abraham around four thousand years ago. Divine Will from God in heaven does not "obliterate" natural human conscious will, but rather seeks its willing submission to Divine Will & Divine Command.

    The "monophysite error" (according to Chalcedon) sounds more like Demonic Possession, wherein the natural human conscious will is (according to descriptions) more powerfully suppressed. But even there, after Jesus & the Apostles cast out the Demonic Spirits, the humans reverted to their right minds & good ol' selves, again suggesting that the human nature is not "dissolved away".

    In sum, per the original quote of Luke 1:38, I think that the only Christian-consistent claim is that Mary's natural human will was involved in consciously deciding to submit to Divine Will. That created a "harmonious understanding" paving the way for the birth, maturation, and ministry of Jesus Christ.
  6. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

    The Catholic Creed was delivered by God Himself in our Lord Jesus Holy Spirit and Holy Mother Mary to Saint Dominic within The Most Holy Rosary back in 1214 and 1216 while Jesus appeared and spoke to Holy Saint Dominic and Blessed Allan De La Roche with God The Most High our Holy Divine Majesty and Holy Divine Creator saying:

    "It is the greatest weapon against satan" and
    "Mans last mean/s of Salvation".

    "Mean/s" - there are others.

    "I Believe in God The Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord who was Conceived of The Holy Spirit, born of The Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius pilate, was Crucified died and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the Third day He rose again. He Ascended into Heaven and is Seated at The Right Hand of The Father, He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in The Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the Resurrection of the dead and the Life everlasting Amen.

    and there are other Holy Creeds.

    Therefore it is the Holy Immaculate Conception used by our Lord Jesus God The Most High and Holy Spirit and it is the Holy reverant Term.

    I wish you all a very Joyous Christmas in our Lord Jesus, Holy Spirit God The Most High and our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mother Mary