Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[expos4ever]

Jesus, the Authoritative over all scripture, disagrees that we can break God's law. Matthew 5:17-30

About Matthew 5: Do you believe it is a coincidence that Jesus uses the same "end of the world" language to set a time when the Law will end as the Old Testament uses to describe events that have already occurred, well before the end of the world. For example, Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events that have, in fact, already taken place.

And do you think it is a mere coincidence that Jesus says that the law will not end until "all is accomplished" and then these are His last words:

"It is finished"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

About Matthew 5: Do you believe it is a coincidence that Jesus uses the same "end of the world" language to set a time when the Law will end as the Old Testament uses to describe events that have already occurred, well before the end of the world. For example, Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events that have, in fact, already taken place.

And do you think it is a mere coincidence that Jesus says that the law will not end until "all is accomplished" and then these are His last words:

"It is finished"

The end of the earth will not happen until Jesus comes back, so the law remains. Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 5:19 Everyone not written in the Book of Life will be destroyed and there will be no more sin. Jesus will make a New Heaven and a New Earth and the saints will reign with Jesus forever Revelation 21. We should all pray to have our names in the book of life. The way to get there is to follow the instruction manual, the scriptures- the Word of God.

 

[Clare73]

Previously I thought you agreed
scripture does not contradict scripture, so why are you doing that?

Strawman. . .

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

I present an agreement among the NT verses, affirming all of them.
Do you affirm all the NT verses, or do you reserve the right to deny some NT verses?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Strawman. . .

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

I present an agreement among the NT verses, affirming all of them.
But you do not affirm all the NT verses, you reserve the right to deny some NT verses.

Hmmm, another poster who overuses the word "strawman" for every post.

Lets recap who is denying the clear Word of God.

My post:

Loving one’s neighbor is fulfilled when we keep the commandments of God, which is the love of God. 1 John 5:3 Love does not murder your neighbor, steal from them, lie, covet what they have etc. etc. which is why love is fulfilled when you keep the commandments of God, this is love.

Which you said

Not according to NT apostolic teaching, where loving one's neighbor has fulfilled God's commandments.
God's commandments have been fulfilled by loving one's neighbor. (Romans 13:8-10)

So are you saying John is not being truthful when he clearly says:

For this IS the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

How can love fulfill the law when one is breaking the commandments? It can't. Love does not vain God's name, worship other gods, steal, covet or break any of the commandments of God according to God, Jesus and the apostles. To suggest otherwise is going against the teaching of our Creator and Savior Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, all scripture must reconcile and doesn't delete each other.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.

Do you really think Paul is giving permission to commit adultery, murder, covet, or break any other of the commandments of God. You might want to think through this or prayerfully ask for guidance on this passage..

 

[Clare73]

Hmmm, another poster who overuses the word "strawman" for every post.

Lets recap who is denying the clear Word of God.

Methinks it has all been clearly covered.

 

[expos4ever]

The end of the earth will not come until Jesus comes back, so the law remains. Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 5:19

You are evading the argument I presented about Matthew 5. Readers will know this if they are following the thread.

As for Matt 7:21-23, it does not draw any connection to the 10 commandments:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness

As any objective reader will know, there is a difference between the general concept of "lawlessness" and the specific situation of not following the 10. One can lawlessness even with the 10 retired.

You are repeating the same paper-thin argument you have all along - that we can only be lawless in relation to 10, and that if it is retired there is no basis of determining what sin is.

This is obviously incorrect: we have the teachings of Jesus as well as the indwelling Spirit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are evading the argument I presented about Matthew 5. Readers will know this if they are following the thread.

As for Matt 7:21-23, it does not draw any connection to the 10 commandments:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness

As any objective reader will know, there is a difference between the general concept of "lawlessness" and the specific situation of not following the 10. One can lawlessness even with the 10 retired.

You are repeating the same paper-thin argument you have all along - that we can only be lawless in relation to 10, that if it is retired, there is no basis of determining what sin is.

This is obviously incorrect: we have the teachings of Jesus as well as the indwelling Spirit.

Please explain what "general concept of lawlessness” means and which laws are you referring to as I have not seen this in scriptures and be sure to link the scripture to Matthew 7:21-23? All laws came from God, so please post in scripture "general laws" that somehow appeared out of nowhere that did not come from God.

The problem with thinking one verse is going to explain the whole bible, it doesn't work that way. All scripture works together and is not independent of each other (perhaps why Jesus wants us to seek Him with all our hearts and diligently study His Word) . Scripture explains scripture and while it might not be explained in every verse in every chapter all of the scripture is the Word of God, so when we see it defined elsewhere it doesn't change the next time you see it in scriptures.


1 John 3:4 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” found in Exodus 20:17 the Ten Commandments

James says you break one of the commandments quoting from the Ten Commandment you break them all James 2:10-12

Why would you assume what Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-23 is not breaking the commandments of God. Are you saying His commandments are not His will? Not God’s will to show mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments? Exodus 20:6 Jesus quotes from the the Ten verbatim when asked a question on which commandments to keep. Matthew 19:17-19.

I am still sticking with the scriptures on this, but we have free will to believe what we want. We can't outsmart our Creator though, He knows our every thought and if we believe in Jesus, we should believe His teachings and the Word of God.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Exodus 34 is not where the Ten Commandments are found.

Then why does it conclude the ten in Exodus 34 with
Exodus 34:27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments?

 

[expos4ever]

We should all pray to have our names in the book of life. The way to get there is to follow the instruction manual, the scriptures- the Word of God.

But the point is that Scripture is not primarily an "instruction manual" - it is a narrative detailing God's plan of redemption as it has unfolded, is unfolding, and will continue to unfold.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

But the point is that Scripture is not primarily an "instruction manual" - it is a narrative detailing God's plan of redemption as it has unfolded, is unfolding, and will continue to unfold.

You're free to believe that, but I believe if we follow the Word of God exactly, we won't be deceived like scripture tells us the devil deceives the WHOLE WORLD Revelation 12:9 . The scripture is our safeguard to be sure we are following God and not the "other spirit" and scripture gives us warnings like this so we can be sure we are following the right Spirit:

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

I think many people are going to run into the situation that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 7:21-23 because many have replaced God's will for their own will. We have time for now to change our path and we are called to worship in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24

 

[Clare73]

But the point is that Scripture is not primarily an "instruction manual" - it is a narrative detailing God's plan of redemption as it has unfolded, is unfolding, and will continue to unfold.

You don't think 2 Timothy 3:16-17 presents Scripture as primarily an instruction manual,
where its prophecies, as God told Miriam, are given in riddles or dark sayings (Numbers 12:8),
which riddles are subject to more than one interpretation, but no interpretation disagreeing with NT apostolic teaching?

 

[expos4ever]

Please explain what "general concept of lawlessness” means and which laws are you referring to as I have not seen this in scriptures and be sure to link the scripture to Matthew 7:21-23? All laws came from God, so please post in scripture "general laws" that somehow appeared out of nowhere that did not come from God.

When someone says "sin is lawlessness", they are making the claim that sin consists in the violation of some law, without specifying which one. That is what I mean when I refer to "lawlessness" as a general concept.

The point is that you cannot, legitimately anyway, use the "sin is lawlessness" text to support the argument that the 10 commandments remains in force. This is because I can counter with the claim that as long as someone is violating some law, not necessarily the 10, they are committing lawlessness. Of course, if the 10 were indeed in force, to violate them would constitute lawlessness. But lawlessness can exist apart from the 10.

Again: as a Canadian, American law does not apply to me (at least when I am here in Canada). Does that mean I cannot commit lawlessness? Of course not - we have more than enough of our own law.

I am not sure what you mean by "all laws come from God". It is illegal here to park in a handicapped spot - does that law come from God? One could argue that this law is based on Christian principles, but there is, of course, no law in scripture about parking.

Even worse, what if there was a law that one had to turn in all Jews to the governing authorities - there may have been laws like this in Hitler's Germany. Do those laws "come from God"?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

When someone says "sin is lawlessness", they are making the claim that sin consists in the violation of some law, without specifying which one. That is what I mean when I refer to "lawlessness" as a general concept.

The point is that you cannot, legitimately anyway, use the "sin is lawlessness" text to support the argument that the 10 commandments remains in force. This is because I can counter with the claim that as long as someone is violating some law, not necessarily the 10, they are committing lawlessness. Of course, if the 10 were indeed in force, to violate them would constitute lawlessness. But lawlessness can exist apart from the 10.

Again: as a Canadian, American law does not apply to me (at least when I am here in Canada). Does that mean I cannot commit lawlessness? Of course not - we have more than enough of our own law.

I am not sure what you mean by "all laws come from God". It is illegal here to park in a handicapped spot - does that law come from God? One could argue that this law is based on Christian principles, but there is, of course, no law in scripture about parking.

Even worse, what if there was a law that one had to turn in all Jews to the governing authorities - there may have been laws like this in Hitler's Germany. Do those laws "come from God"?

You can not prove that Matthew 7:23 does not include the Commandments of God. Wouldn’t you rather place it safe? What if you’re wrong and God means what He says- Showing mercy to thousands to those who love Him and keep His commandments? Exodus 20:6

What harm does it cause keeping the commandments of God? Only worshipping God, not bowing to idols? Using His name in a sacred way, keeping His Sabbath day holy, not wanting to murder your neighbor or covet what they have, steal or lie, not honoring your parents- really what is the harm in keeping God’s commandments? There is none, but scripture gives us plenty of warnings for those who break God’s law.

When Jesus was asked which commandments to keep for eternal life He quoted directly from the Ten Commandments Matthew 19:17-19 and told us to keep the least of the commandments again quoting from the Ten, so it would be a bit strange if Jesus wasn’t including the Ten in Matthew 7:21-23 if He told us to keep them.

If you feel you can risk not keeping the commandments and still be called one of God’s saints, I guess thats your choice to believe, but I personally believe in the scriptures and the promises of God.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

To me the commandments are not burdensome and my decision is to keep them because of my love for God. Jesus promises us to he Spirit to help keep the commandments so we don’t have to do it alone, but we are required to put in effort. John 14:15-18

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

God bless.

 

[expos4ever]

You don't think 2 Timothy 3:16-17 presents Scripture as primarily an instruction manual,
where its prophecies, as God told Miriam, are given in riddles or dark sayings (Numbers 12:8),
which riddles are subject to more than one interpretation, but no interpretation disagreeing with NT apostolic teaching?

I think it is fairly self-evident that scripture is primarily not an instruction manual. As far as the Timothy text is concerned, I can plausibly assert that we can indeed "be instructed by" how the Biblical narrative plays out. So Scripture is not primarily an instruction manual in the sense of a bunch of do's and don'ts - we can be "instructed" in ways other than consuming a list of do's and don'ts.

Either way

 

[Clare73]

I think it is fairly self-evident that scripture is primarily not an instruction manual. As far as the Timothy text is concerned, I can plausibly assert that we can indeed "be instructed by" how the Biblical narrative plays out. So Scripture is not primarily an instruction manual in the sense of a bunch of do's and don'ts - we can be "instructed" in ways other than consuming a list of do's and don'ts.

Either way

The NT is an instruction manual which instructs us in the origins of Christianity, its early history, its doctrines, its practices, its rules, etc.

As is the OT.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The peace of Christ be with you.

 

[expos4ever]

The NT is an instruction manual which instructs us in the origins of Christianity, its early history, its doctrines, its practices, its rules, etc.

As is the OT.

As another poster says, "we'll have to agree to disagree"

 

[Leaf473]

Why not play it safe and keep some of the Law?

If a person honestly believes that some parts of the law have ended and some parts still remain,
it would be very important to know all of the laws that remain.

That's because breaking one law makes you guilty of breaking them all.

So the person who very carefully keeps the ten commandments to the letter
yet cuts the edges of their beard is guilty of breaking the 10 as well.

That's the danger of saying that some of the Law is still in force. It becomes super important to know every law that is still in force.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why not play it safe and keep some of the Law?

If a person honestly believes that some parts of the law have ended and some parts still remain,
it would be very important to know all of the laws that remain.

That's because breaking one law makes you guilty of breaking them all.

So the person who very carefully keeps the ten commandments to the letter
yet cuts the edges of their beard is guilty of breaking the 10 as well.

That's the danger of saying that some of the Law is still in force. It becomes super important to know every law that is still in force.

It’s helps to read things in context and James is quoting the Ten Commandments Exodus 20 when stating if you break one commandment you break them all. James 2:10-12. There is no beard trimming in the Ten Commandments. God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

It’s helps to read things in context and James is quoting the Ten Commandments Exodus 20 when stating if you break one commandment you break them all. James 2:10-12. There is no beard trimming in the Ten Commandments. God bless.

Hi SabbathBlessings,

Good to hear from you again!

We have discussed the theory of law keeping many times. Discussions about the theory can go on indefinitely.

If you would like to move our discussion forward, please say what laws you currently keep. If it's a lot, you could just talk about three or four to start with.

May the Lord bless you and keep you!