Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[SabbathBlessings]

Strawman - I have never posted anything that directly or indirectly shows that I support lawlessness.

You may elect to equate lawlessness - the general concept of not following any law - with not following a particular law - the 10 in this case - but that is your problem, not mine.

I am no more "lawless" for not looking to the 10 than I am lawless for not following American law, as a Canadian. I follow Canadian law - the fact that I do not follow American law does not make me lawless!

This proves that the fact that one does not follow a particular law does not make one lawless!

You have stated many times that all laws "retired" at the cross. Are you changing this statement now?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ephesians 2 declares this:

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

Consider verse 12. Why was the Gentile excluded from citizenship in Israel? I suggest that the reason is the Law of Moses (the Torah) - the Torah was effectively a national charter for the Jews, it is Torah that would be understood to mark out "citizenship in Israel". It is the abolition of the Torah that supports a sensible interpretation of the material from 14 onward, material which is all about the newly achieved unity of Jew and Gentile. How would one naturally bring Jew and Gentile together? Obviously by getting rid of the complex set of laws, practices, ceremonies, and rituals which are for Jew and Jew only. The Torah, being for Jews only, effectively excluded the Gentile from membership in God's true family (Israel). After all, it is the Torah that marked the Jew out from her pagan neighbour.

And let it be clear, there are elements of the 10 that would indeed mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. One of them, and there is at least one other, was very distinctive to the Jew:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

Besides, there is much more scriptural evidence for the retirement of the 10 than this stuff form Ephesians 2.

Paul clears this up very clearly....

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19

Circumcision is not found in the Ten Commandments, the commandments of God Exodus 20

 

[expos4ever]

You have stated many times that all laws "retired" at the cross. Are you changing this statement now?

My intent has always been to assert that the Law of Moses was retired at the cross. And whether they are "technically" part of the Law of Moses, I believe the 10 commandments were retired at the cross.

It is possible that I may have made statements about "the Law" being retired but it was never my intent that these be construed as referring to all law - such reference were intended to refer to the Law of Moses (and the 10, whether or not you believe they are part of the Law of Moses).

I hope this clarifies matters. Obviously, I obey all sorts of laws, not least criminal law where I live. And to the extent that what Jesus taught could be characterized as "law", I would assert that we need to obey that as well.

With that clarification it should be clear: I have never embraced lawlessness in the general sense.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul clears this up very clearly....

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19

Circumcision is not found in the Ten Commandments, the commandments of God Exodus 20

You, once more, entirely evade the content of my argument. Other readers will know this. First, to be a serious participant in debate, you need to actually engage the content of the arguments other people provide - you cannot simply cite other texts, or make other arguments that evade the content of the other person's argument.

My argument is there for you to critique - go nuts.

As for "keeping the commandments of God", you must surely know my response: not all commandments apply to all people throughout all time. Noah was commanded to build an ark, should I therefore bild an ark.

My position is clear: the Law of Moses (including the 10) was given to Jews and Jews only. And it was retired at the cross. This clearly does not subject me to your implication that I am advocating not "obeying the commandments of God" any more than the fact that I am not rushing out to the hardware store to get supplies for an ark means that I am not "obeying the commandments of God".

That should settle the matter, but I am sure it will not.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My intent has always been to assert that the Law of Moses was retired at the cross. And whether they are "technically" part of the Law of Moses, I believe the 10 commandments were retired at the cross.

It is possible that I may have made statements about "the Law" being retired but it was never my intent that these be construed as referring to all law - such reference were intended to refer to the Law of Moses (and the 10, whether or not you believe they are part of the Law of Moses).

I hope this clarifies matters. Obviously, I obey all sorts of laws, not least criminal law where I live. And to the extent that what Jesus taught could be characterized as "law", I would assert that we need to obey that as well.

With that clarification it should be clear: I have never embraced lawlessness in the general sense.

There is no scripture that says the Ten Commandments ended at the cross, but there is scripture showing the commandments contained in ordinances ended Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 10 which consists of animal and food offerings when Jesus became our Sacrifice for sins and sanctification. It is still a sin to break any of the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant Romans 7:7, James 2:10-12 .

What laws do you think are written in the heart and mind by God than if its not the law of Moses? The only law left is the law of God, the Ten Commandments. Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 If the Ten are repeated in the New Covenant, it is because we are required to keep as Jesus tells us by His own lips, so I believe Jesus. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19, John 14:15

There is a lot of scriptures which I provided here Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2 that has not been addressed.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Take care

 

[expos4ever]

There is no scripture that says the Ten Commandments ended at the cross,...

Let me try this. When Paul wrote these words, what, exactly, was he trying to tell us:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Please do not bury us with other texts and other arguments, just explain exactly what Paul is saying here about the law (which obviously includes the 10 because of the immediately following reference to the "thou shalt not covet" law.

In fact, please complete this sentence: "In Romans 7:6, Paul is telling us that.................."

 

[expos4ever]

It is still a sin to break any of the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant Romans 7:7, James 2:10-12.

Romans 7:7, by itself, does not indicate that it is still a sin to break the 10. Here is the text:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

All we can legitimately conclude from this text is that, at some time in the past, Paul learned what sin was from the 10 commandments.

You are going beyond what Paul says here when you assert that this text shows that it is still a sin to break the 10 commandments.

Is it still a sin to steal? Of course! But that does not mean it is a sin because it is against one of the 10 commandments.

I will deal with James later, there you at least have a plausible argument.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Romans 7:7, by itself, does not indicate that it is still a sin to break the 10. Here is the text:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

All we can legitimately conclude from this text is that, at some time in the past, Paul learned what sin was from the 10 commandments.

You are going beyond what Paul says here when you assert that this text shows that it is still a sin to break the 10 commandments.

Is it still a sin to steal? Of course! But that does not mean it is a sin because it is against one of the 10 commandments.

I will deal with James later, there you at least have a plausible argument.

Well the apotles and Jesus gives Glory to God for the Ten Commandments sadly people today do not. We were even warned this would happen. 2 Timothy 3:5. I prefer the scriptures to the teachings of man that lead people to break God’s commandments that Jesus warns us about. Matthew 15:3-8, Mark 7:6-8

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The He who said “Do not commit adultery” also said “Do not murder” that “He” is God found in Exodus 20 the Creator of ALL things including His commandments that He both wrote and spoke.

Jesus said: John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

So when Jesus said He did not to come to destroy the law, of course He is talking about the law of the Father that Jesus came to magnify Isaiah 42:21- not destroy and we should keep the least of the commandments quoting directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:17-30

Jesus is coming back for those who do the will of the Father and we should delight to do His will as His law is written in our heart. Matthew 7:21-23 Psalms 40:8 Hebrews 8:10.

We have time to change our direction and follow in Truth and Spirit. Jesus defines Truth as being the Word. John 17:17 The scripture is our path and we would do well to follow it in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24

Happy Sabbath to those who keep His Sabbath commandment and God bless!

 

[expos4ever]

All right, let's look at James 2:10-12

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators. 10 For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law. 12 So speak, and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of freedom.

Obviously James is talking about the 10 commandments in the present tense. And from wikipedia:

James is unique in the canon by its explicit and wholehearted support of Torah-observance (the Law).

Of all the many arguments I have seen here for the continuation of the 10 I have seen here, I think the argument based on this text from James is the only one with any "legs".

It certainly seems that James is advocating keeping the 10. And maybe he is. If so, he is at odds with Paul, and I think with Jesus.

Perhaps, like I believe someone else has suggested, James is simply commenting on the difficulty of keeping the law, but actually agrees with Paul that the law, including the 10, is "retired"

On balance, my best guess is that James does indeed believe the 10 are still in force.

But widening things out to all scripture, I believe the preponderance of evidence is that the 10 are retired.

 

[expos4ever]

Since we are, apparently, allowed to discuss the Sabbath here, I can present what I believe is one of the most compelling arguments that the 10 commandments have been retired.

Jesus rises on the day after the Sabbath - the first day of a new week. I won't get into the details here but I believe a strong undercurrent theme in the New Testament is new creation. Hold that thought for now.

The whole reason for the Sabbath in the Old Testament was to honour God's rest after His first "round" of creation (as contrasted with the new creation of the NT):

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy

But things have changed! We have new creation ignite on the 8th day, not the 7th.

Here is the point: it would seem very odd that we keep on honouring the OT Sabbath given that God, in Christ, is essentially re-inventing the Genesis account. To keep the OT Sabbath is to essentially not recognize that there has been a new creation to supplant the old.

Therefore, I think it does not make theological sense to keep the OT Sabbath. And this is another reason to accept that the 10 are now "retired".

 

[expos4ever]

Well the apotles and Jesus gives Glory to God for the Ten Commandments sadly people today do not.

The fact that Jesus and Paul, and others, give glory to God for the 10 certainly does not require us to believe they are still in force.

In fact, a case can be made that the 10, and the law more generally, served a key role in God's plan of redemption. But that plan was consummated at the Cross and the law, having done its job, can be retired in great honour.

 

[expos4ever]

We were even warned this would happen. 2 Timothy 3:5.

What does this text actually say?

holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these.

Where are the 10 commandments mentioned here? On precisely what basis do you think we cannot be godly without looking to the 10? Does not the indwelling Spirit, that Paul clearly believes has supplanted the law have the power to lead us into godliness:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I prefer the scriptures to the teachings of man that lead people to break God’s commandments that Jesus warns us about. Matthew 15:3-8, Mark 7:6-8

I, too, prefer the scriptures - we obviously disagree on what they are telling us.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I, too, prefer the scriptures - we obviously disagree on what they are telling us.

And that is nothing new. This particular controversy goes back to the Millerites of the 1840's.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus said: John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Surely you must know that I, and others who agree that the 10 are retired, see no contradiction between this statement by Jesus and our view.

How, precisely, do you know that it is not the will of the Father to initiate a new covenant in the markers of the old, including the 10, are set aside?

not destroy and we should keep the least of the commandments quoting directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:17-30

Let's talk again about Matthew 5 where Jesus says this:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

I have shown that there is clear Biblical precedent for the use such apocalyptic "end of the world" language in a metaphorical sense to denote changes in the socio-political order in the "here and now". In other words, use of such language with the intent that it not be taken literally.

And if you study extra-Biblical sources, you will find the same thing - end of the world language used metaphorically.

Neither you or any of those who share your view have actually engaged that argument - you just dismiss it out of hand.

Why is that? Do you have no counterargument?

And what else does Jesus say in this passage - He strongly implies that the Law will indeed come to an end when "all is accomplished".

And what are Jesus's final words on the cross?

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit

I happen to think this is not a coincidence. What do you think?

 

[seeking.IAM]

@SabbathBlessings, I thought your original post specifically asked for a general response while stating you were interested in opinions that were not Sabbath-specific. Now, that Mods have moved the thread to Sabbath and The Law, I re-read the OP to find it has been edited and what I had thought I had read previously has been removed.

I would like to be mistaken, but if I'm not I have to say I find this all a bit disingenuous. I'm out.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@SabbathBlessings, I thought your original post specifically asked for a general response while stating you were interested in opinions that were not Sabbath-specific. Now, that Mods have moved the thread to Sabbath and The Law, I re-read the OP to find it has been edited and what I had thought I had read previously has been removed.

I would like to be mistaken, but if I'm not I have to say I find this all a bit disingenuous. I'm out.

My original post was in a forum prohibited from talking about the Sabbath commandment and only 9 of the Ten Commandments could be talked about. Seems weird to me coming from a Christian forum, that we can’t speak on all of God’s commandments that God personally wrote and personally spoke, but I don’t make the rules on CF. The moderators decided to move my thread because the Ten Commandments includes the 4th/Sabbath commandment to the Sabbath and Law forum. This forum allows for discussion on the Sabbath, so of course I would update my post to include discussion on all of the commandments, including the Sabbath commandment. God did write Ten Commandments, not nine and the one commandment everyone sadly wants to forget is the one commandment our Lord and Savior told us to Remember. You’re free to join or not join the discussion, but please don’t call me disingenuous when I am just following the forum rules. My forum name shows I am clearly not hiding anything It would be great for you to stick around, but if you’re out please be well and take care. God bless.

 

[seeking.IAM]

.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@SabbathBlessings, I respect forum rules but think you posted in the proper place the first time given how you worded the discussion topic. I regret its being moved, which I understand is beyond your control. It seems to me that every post about the law deteriorates into a solitary focus about the Sabbath, which is a worth topic in and of itself for those that are interested, yet the solitary focus that it generally morphs into takes away from looking at the rest of the law. I wouldn't have joined another Sabbath thread because they all end the same, but the more global discussion of the law as your originally framed it interested me and made me hopeful this thread might be different. I'm not so interested in the new direction of the thread. Blessing to you.

Yes, I can’t help the post was moved. My intent was to have a discussion about the laws that ended at the cross and which ones did not. I very clearly posted I do not think the Ten Commandments ended and which of course includes the 4th commandment from the Ten. Exodus 20 Exodus 34:28 I was happy speaking about the Ten Commandments in general, but apparently that is not even allowed anymore unless in a box. God’s light won’t be dimmed, despite the best efforts of so many, but as the Bible predicted, Matthew 24:9-14 just the beginning of the end.

It sad to me that the Sabbath commandment, the undisputed holy day of our Lord thy God Exodus 20:10. Isaiah 58:13 is so offensive to the majority of people that we can only speak about it in 1% of this forum. Starting to be like the dark ages, except now we have access to the Bible, so one who is searching God with all their heart can find the Truth through the scriptures, if we don’t harden our hearts, the Spirit can teach us all things.

In heaven and the new earth, the saints will worship the Lord on His holy day from one Sabbath to another in the presence of our Savior for eternity Isaiah 66:23 just like it was meant to be before sin when Adam and Eve spent the first Sabbath day in the presence of our Creator! Genesis 2:1-3. The Word prevails! Amen!

God bless you and take care.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Yes, I can’t help the post was moved.

I don't want to take away from this thread. Please see my reply in private message to you.

 

[SimpleLiving2019]

Where are they in the Ten Commandments? Only the Sabbath commandment is written by the hand of God with the other 9 commandments, so yes, there is a difference. The Ten Commandments are in Exodus 20, I hope you’re not trying to rewrite these now!

You are fixating about the 10 commandments being written by the hand of God, as though a commandment from his mouth carries less weight? Deu 6:4&5 is quoted by Jesus as the most important commandment, and it isn’t written on the stone tables.

Also, the 10 commandments written on the stone tables are literally the “tables of the covenant”, meaning the tables of the Old Covenant. There isn’t any ambiguity there. Nobody is denying that God wrote on them, but it was literally pre-incarnate Jesus, the creator, who wrote on them. The pre-incarnate Jesus is the God of the Old Covenant. When he died on the cross, keeping the covenant of the tables of stone was no longer the path to salvation, because the giver of the tables of stone, Jesus, died, and that Old Covenant died with him, so Israel and everyone else is free from the Old Covenant tables, written on stone, so that they can now serve the risen Jesus under the New Covenant, where God writes his commandments on the tables of our hearts. Just as when a husband dies, the wife is free to marry another, only in this case, Jesus died, and we marry the risen Jesus Christ under the New Covenant.

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu 9:9-11 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.