Deut 32, (and Gen 49:1) as the mother of end time prophecies

[Notrash]

I do not "twist" these prophecies to fit a futurist interpretation.
You do not "openly show these prophecies to be fulfilled." You twist them to mean something different from what they say, and then pretend that in that sense they have been fulfilled.

And the only way you can make these interpretations "work" is to ignore many of the details contained in these prophecies, claiming that they are not important. This is irreverence toward the word of God.
You find ways to wrest some of these to fit your system of interpretation. But you cannot wrest all of them in your gross fashion.
But they are neither distractions nor changing the subject, as you claim. They are the proof that your interpretations cannot be correct.

As noted: you say, I say.
I make the same accusations against your interpretations and mis-understandings.

 

[Notrash]

Question 3.

3. Some teachers of the dispensational/futurist view say that Deut 30 cannot be fulfilled because ‘all Israel’ did not return to the land and that only Judah was represented in Israel at the time of Christ. Is there any reason to not consider these following to refer to the same ‘all Israel’ that was to return to the land? Ezra 2:70; 6:17; 8:25, 8:35; 10:5; Neh 7:73, 12:47.

Most of these verses use the phrase "all Israel" to refer to those represented in the land.

This fulfillment of the completion of the return is further confirmed by Pauls quote of Deut 30:10ff in Rom 10:5ff. The indwelling and circumcision of the heart and individual knowledge of God [through God's incarnation] was to occur AFTER the period of blessing and cursing and after the captivity.

Note also that some of the northern tribes were intermarried with other nationalities and were present in the land as Samaritans and others. With the return of the tribes of Judah which were taken away into Babylon, "all Israel' was represented in the land by the mixed blood and by the pure blood.

In addition to those of Judah in the babylonian captivity, Daniel prayed for those who had sinned by Leaving; referring to the northern tribes.

All Israel is not emphasized in either Duet 30, or elsewhere in the Deut covenant as returning.
It seems to be an application and insistence based in Ezekiel 36. But, though debated by some, the emphasis of even all of Israel was to not exclude any of the tribes from multiplying on the land after the conquest of the Medes.

Answer: there is no reason to think that 'all Israel", even all of Israel had not returned and were permitted to re-multiply on the barren land of Israel after the conquest of the Medes. This is especially noted to be applicable after the specific curse of the law of Moses which was the babylonian captivity as specifically declared as such by Daniel. The babylonian siege also helped foretype the Roman siege, but was the coming of the 'latter end'. We note the similar language of Deut 30:5 and EZ 36:11. where they would return and multiply even more than their fathers. Both Deut 30 and EZ 36 are thus referring to the return from babylonian captivity after the curse of Moses law. Both were prophesied while within the captivity and to the people within the captivity.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

Question 3.

3. Some teachers of the dispensational/futurist view say that Deut 30 cannot be fulfilled because ‘all Israel’ did not return to the land and that only Judah was represented in Israel at the time of Christ. Is there any reason to not consider these following to refer to the same ‘all Israel’ that was to return to the land? Ezra 2:70; 6:17; 8:25, 8:35; 10:5; Neh 7:73, 12:47.

Most of these verses use the phrase "all Israel" to refer to those represented in the land.

This fulfillment of the completion of the return is further confirmed by Pauls quote of Deut 30:10ff in Rom 10:5ff. The indwelling and circumcision of the heart and individual knowledge of God [through God's incarnation] was to occur AFTER the period of blessing and cursing and after the captivity.

Note also that some of the northern tribes were intermarried with other nationalities and were present in the land as Samaritans and others. With the return of the tribes of Judah which were taken away into Babylon, "all Israel' was represented in the land by the mixed blood and by the pure blood.

In addition to those of Judah in the babylonian captivity, Daniel prayed for those who had sinned by Leaving; referring to the northern tribes.

All Israel is not emphasized in either Duet 30, or elsewhere in the Deut covenant as returning.
It seems to be an application and insistence based in Ezekiel 36. But, though debated by some, the emphasis of even all of Israel was to not exclude any of the tribes from multiplying on the land after the conquest of the Medes.

Answer: there is no reason to think that 'all Israel", even all of Israel had not returned and were permitted to re-multiply on the barren land of Israel after the conquest of the Medes. This is especially noted to be applicable after the specific curse of the law of Moses which was the babylonian captivity as specifically declared as such by Daniel. The babylonian siege also helped foretype the Roman siege, but was the coming of the 'latter end'. We note the similar language of Deut 30:5 and EZ 36:11. where they would return and multiply even more than their fathers. Both Deut 30 and EZ 36 are thus referring to the return from babylonian captivity after the curse of Moses law. Both were prophesied while within the captivity and to the people within the captivity.

You are quite correct that most of the scriptural prophecies about the return of Israel simply use the words "all Israel." But that does not get rid of the one I have been pressing. Ezekiel 36 explicitly refers to a piece of real estate in the middle east. Verse 12 of that chapter explicitly says that this piece of real estate will again be possessed by "my people Israel." And verse 10 uses the absolute all in defining the people it is referring to as "all Israel, even all of it."

You keep avoiding the absolute nature of these words, but you cannot escape it. There is no way to even pretend that absolutely all Israel has ever returned to this land. But Ezekiel 36 explicitly says that absolutely all Israel will again possess this piece of real estate.

You claim that this is simply what one person says verses what the other says. But that is not correct. This is what one person says verses what the Bible says.

 

[Notrash]

You are quite correct that most of the scriptural prophecies about the return of Israel simply use the words "all Israel." But that does not get rid of the one I have been pressing. Ezekiel 36 explicitly refers to a piece of real estate in the middle east. Verse 12 of that chapter explicitly says that this piece of real estate will again be possessed by "my people Israel." And verse 10 uses the absolute all in defining the people it is referring to as "all Israel, even all of it."

You keep avoiding the absolute nature of these words, but you cannot escape it. There is no way to even pretend that absolutely all Israel has ever returned to this land. But Ezekiel 36 explicitly says that absolutely all Israel will again possess this piece of real estate.

You claim that this is simply what one person says verses what the other says. But that is not correct. This is what one person says verses what the Bible says.

I dont' avoid what you call the 'absolute nature', but reject your understanding and interpretation of it [whatever that is supposed to look like to you]. I agree, this is what you interpret it to say and from your perspective 3000 yrs later versus what it bible says as prophesied and recorded for encouragement to the people living in the Babylonian captivity.
For those interested in following along this phrase "even all" was discussed

here
http://www.christianforums.com/t7560096-4/#post57511069

and here. http://www.christianforums.com/t7560096-4/#post57529641 as well as above.

Here is a link to a study of the phrase [URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=%22even+all%22&t=KJV&sf=5"]"Even all" [/URL]using blue letter bible. None of the tribes, Even None of Israel were excluded from presence and re-population on the land. It's a re-emphasis on the comparative. Please continue that discussion in that thread as there is an unanswered response post there.

 

[Notrash]

4. Does Deut 30:6-10 in speaking of of the circumcision of the heart appear to be talking of the same event as prophesied in Jer 31 and other places which would be individual (as per Jer 31) rather than corporal?

6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Jeremiah 31

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

In Ez 36;

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Answer:
Yes, there are some similarities of the prophecies of Deuteronomy with the later prophecies in the major prophets of the new covenant.

Thus the new covenant is prophesied in Duet 1500 yrs before it's full establishment through the "New Prophet". The need for the New Prophet and new covenant confirms the inadequacies and temporal nature of the mosaic covenant ordinances in their power to impart life. This was expounded on in 2Cor 3, parts of Romans and Galatians and in the book of Hebrews.

 

[Douggg]

Answer: there is no reason to think that 'all Israel", even all of Israel had not returned and were permitted to re-multiply on the barren land of Israel after the conquest of the Medes. This is especially noted to be applicable after the specific curse of the law of Moses which was the babylonian captivity as specifically declared as such by Daniel. The babylonian siege also helped foretype the Roman siege, but was the coming of the 'latter end'. We note the similar language of Deut 30:5 and EZ 36:11. where they would return and multiply even more than their fathers. Both Deut 30 and EZ 36 are thus referring to the return from babylonian captivity after the curse of Moses law. Both were prophesied while within the captivity and to the people within the captivity.

It boils down to when the land of Israel and its inhabitants became to be called the nation "Israel" again. I don't think that happened until 1948.

Doug L.

 

[Notrash]

It boils down to when the land of Israel and its inhabitants became to be called the nation "Israel" again. I don't think that happened until 1948.

Doug L.

When this was prophesied, the land area was part of babylon.
It would be called Israel or Judea again after the Medes conquered babylon and permitted the people of Israel to re-inhabit the land.

There have been at least 3 other times in history after the Romans destruction of the temple when Israel had a political kingdom in Jerusalem. In 135 they even had coinage minted and in currency. 1948 didn't even establish the whole city of Jerusalem or a very large percentage of the land.

Irregardless, God's administration through the national covenant entity ended with the coming of the new prophet and the ending of the mosaic covenant. What was wrought through the 20th century was wrought through the cunning and will of men; not through the pro-active will of God.

 

[Notrash]

I'm going to do 3 questions at once and then take a break. I'd like to get to question 7 as it covers the concept of the latter end of the mosaic covenant conditional national land entity.
Question 5.

In Duet 30, was any additional time between the return to the land and the circumcision of the heart mentioned in vs 5 or 6?

No, without additional information, it would appear that just from Duet 30 the return to the land would almost seem to coincide with the time of circumcision of the heart and the indwelling of the Spirit.

Is the context of the angel’s visitation and the giving of the 70 week time prophecy in the same context of time and a response of his prayer of confession in Dan 9:11-14 which satisfied Deut 30:1-5?

Answer: Yes, Daniel is in the process of confessing the Babylonian captivity as the specific curse of the law. This confession satisfies and is in response to the confession described as neccessary in Deut 30:1-3. The angel then brings a prophecy of 490 yrs which would usher in the Messiah, who would be the incarnation of God, the promised seed of the woman, and who would cancel the law of sin/death to those who would believe in him. [Rom 8:2] The new covenant would coincide with "the covenant" of Dan 9:27 which the Messiah firmly establishes and fulfills as the seed promised to Eve to overthrow the seperation from god and the effects of the serpents lies and doubt.

Is the angels 483yr prophecy thus interjected between vs's 5 and verse 6 and as a response to Daniels confession?

Yes, the 483 yrs until the Messiah and the Messiah's 70th week [Duet 9:27] coincides with the time between the return to the land after Daniels confession and the circumcision of the heart of Deut 30:6-15 as confirmed by Paul in Rom 10:5-10.

Question 6.

Was an "END" or 'latter end' prophesied to occur in Dueteronomy after the promised return (Duet 30:1-4) from Babylonian captivity and after the change of heart and (see Deut 5:25,26; 31:29; 32:20,29)

Yes, both in the beginning of the covenant address and towards the end of the covenant address, the entity formed by the people who accepted the conditions of the contract by crossing the Jordan was prophesied to have an 'utter destruction, an end, and latter end.

Deut 5: 25When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

In the verses following, it describes that even after the utter destruction of the corporal covenant entity, the individuals who would call on the lord after that time would find him and be given Mercy of covenant made with their fathers BEFORE the national covenant.

5:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

The other verses [Deut 31:29, 32:20,29] applicable to question 6 are posted in question 7 below.

QUESTION 7.

7. Was the mosaic national covenant prophesied to have a beginning (Deut; 1:3; 5:2,3; 9:1; 27:9; 29:1) and an end and destruction? (Duet 5:25,26; 8:16-19; 31:29; 32:20:29

)
Yes, in the very giving of the parameters of the covenant, it was declared to have a beginning and a latter ending.

THE BEGINNING.

Deut 1:3And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

Deut 5.

1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Deut 9

1Hear, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to possess nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and fenced up to heaven,
.................
4Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.
7Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.
8Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.

Deut 27:9
9And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the LORD thy God.

Deut 29:1
1These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

THE END of the conditional national entity as administered by God.

Deut 5:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land where unto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Deut 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
20As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Deut 31.

28Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deut 32:

20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. 21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

28For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies [the Romans] themselves being judges.

Was the latter end and destruction to be administered in the time of the 'new prophet'. 18:15ff; Acts 3:22-24; Dan 9:25-27

Yes, The background of some of chapter 18 is in chapter 5.

23And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
24And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
25Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
26For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
28And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
30Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.

Duet 15.

15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:22-25.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, [in that generation] shall be destroyed from among the people.
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. These days are referring first to the first century days of the apostles.
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Dan 9:25-27.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolation are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jump to question 15.

15. Was the Mosaic national covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob? See Deut 1:3; 5:2,3; 27:9, 29:1)

NO !!!! although the national entity was forecast through the patriarch fathers as the former son which would be superseded by the latter son, the national entity was not made till the day Moses delivered the conditions and prophecies about the nation. Jacob/Israel even through Moses were NOT partakers of the national conditional covenant entity and nation of Israel. They were members of the everlasting covenant of Mercy who's principles were opposite those of the blessing of the conditional covenant.

These passages are repeated from question 7 above.

We take special note of Deut 5:2,3

1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

[Biblewriter]

I dont' avoid what you call the 'absolute nature', but reject your understanding and interpretation of it [whatever that is supposed to look like to you]. I agree, this is what you interpret it to say and from your perspective 3000 yrs later versus what it bible says as prophesied and recorded for encouragement to the people living in the Babylonian captivity.
For those interested in following along this phrase "even all" was discussed

here
http://www.christianforums.com/t7560096-4/#post57511069

and here. http://www.christianforums.com/t7560096-4/#post57529641 as well as above.

Here is a link to a study of the phrase "Even all" using blue letter bible. None of the tribes, Even None of Israel were excluded from presence and re-population on the land. It's a re-emphasis on the comparative. Please continue that discussion in that thread as there is an unanswered response post there.

Again, you are willing to discuss "all" and "even all," But both of these are nothing but an attempt to escape the unquestionable meaning of "all.. even all of it."

 

[Notrash]

Again, you are willing to discuss "all" and "even all," But both of these are nothing but an attempt to escape the unquestionable meaning of "all.. even all of it."

Very willing; it was discussed in those posts.
It's I say; you say; I've already said; you've already said. End of discussion.

You deny and try to escape the unquestionable, clear meaning of the text that 'none'..... even none of Israel was excluded from re-population in the land after the Babylonian captivity and from the context of it being unpopulated at that time.