The Two Witnesses

Barraco

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Revelation 11 covers a time when Ephraim and Judah come together as one nation and are granted military success, as detailed in Ezekiel 37, Joel 3, and Zechariah 12. The imagery of fire coming out of their mouths and devouring anyone that tries to harm them can be seen from how Israel retaliates with air strikes when the militants of the nations around them attack their people. When ground forces attack a town, Israel invades an entire city.

I believe we are living in the time of the Two Witnesses. I believe the Times of the Gentiles are coming to a close and God is going bring judgment on the nations surround Jerusalem. Daniel 9:27 says that the prince of the people to come would confirm a covenant with many for the final week of years. I believe the “many” referenced here are the nations surrounding Israel, those of Psalm 83. Even as I type this, the Arab world, both Sunni and Shi’ite, are coming together in opposition of Israel’s invasion of Gaza. This makes me believe that the time of the end of the Gentiles is at hand.

Thoughts?
 

dwb001

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Revelation 11 covers a time when Ephraim and Judah come together as one nation and are granted military success, as detailed in Ezekiel 37, Joel 3, and Zechariah 12. The imagery of fire coming out of their mouths and devouring anyone that tries to harm them can be seen from how Israel retaliates with air strikes when the militants of the nations around them attack their people. When ground forces attack a town, Israel invades an entire city.

I believe we are living in the time of the Two Witnesses. I believe the Times of the Gentiles are coming to a close and God is going bring judgment on the nations surround Jerusalem. Daniel 9:27 says that the prince of the people to come would confirm a covenant with many for the final week of years. I believe the “many” referenced here are the nations surrounding Israel, those of Psalm 83. Even as I type this, the Arab world, both Sunni and Shi’ite, are coming together in opposition of Israel’s invasion of Gaza. This makes me believe that the time of the end of the Gentiles is at hand.

Thoughts?
My thought is that you don't understand how Revelation is different from all other books in the Bible and you might be reading Revelation like any other book of the Bible.
 
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Barraco

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So why is Revelation unique in the Bible?
Because it discusses the mystery of the Church (as to her inclusion into the promises of Abraham as priests and a kingdom through Jesus Christ) and advises them throughout her history on keeping God’s commands and the testimony of Jesus until He returns. The Church is how God calls the lost tribes of Israel back to Himself, so that all of Israel will be saved when Jerusalem embraces her true and rightful King.

Revelation addresses both Jews and Gentiles among seven churches in Anatolia. Revelation 10 shifts Revelation from talking about the Jewish people (Rev 4-9) to talking about the Gentiles (13-18). Chapters 11-12 describe what caused the shift: The destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem in 70 CE. The Mystery of God in Revelation 10:7 is the church during the 42 months that Jerusalem is trampled underfoot. The complete retaking of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, I believe, is what kicks off the covenant among many that starts the 70th seven of Daniel 9:27. The beast will war with the Two Witnesses and defeat them 1,260 days later.

42 months for the times of the Gentiles, 1,260 days for the times of Israel.
 
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dwb001

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Because it discusses the mystery of the Church (as to her inclusion into the promises of Abraham as priests and a kingdom through Jesus Christ) and advises them throughout her history on keeping God’s commands and the testimony of Jesus until He returns. The Church is how God calls the lost tribes of Israel back to Himself, so that all of Israel will be saved when Jerusalem embraces her true and rightful King.

Revelation addresses both Jews and Gentiles among seven churches in Anatolia. Revelation 10 shifts Revelation from talking about the Jewish people (Rev 4-9) to talking about the Gentiles (13-18). Chapters 11-12 describe what caused the shift: The destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem in 70 CE. The Mystery of God in Revelation 10:7 is the church during the 42 months that Jerusalem is trampled underfoot. The complete retaking of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, I believe, is what kicks off the covenant among many that starts the 70th seven of Daniel 9:27. The beast will war with the Two Witnesses and defeat them 1,260 days later.

42 months for the times of the Gentiles, 1,260 days for the times of Israel.
Nope that isn't it.
 
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I believe we are living in the time of the Two Witnesses.
No, that's impossible. The language which describes the two witnesses of Revelation 11 is describing the role of the high priests who were the only ones who were able to "stand before the Lord" in the most holy place. In the post-exilic temple, God limited that high priesthood role to only the family of Zadok who had remained faithful during the exile period. Ezekiel 44:15 describes how the sons of Zadok would be the only ones allowed to "come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God."

In Revelation 11:4, just as in Zechariah 4:14, the two witnesses are called "the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." This is reflective of the menorah lampstand in the OT temple, lighting the entrance to the Most Holy Place, where only the high priests were allowed admittance once a year.

There are no high priests that have existed since the AD 70 era. Therefore, this Revelation 11:3-14 prophecy had to have taken place while there were still high priests around in Jerusalem to perform those actions described in Revelation 11.

The two witnesses of Revelation were the two former high priests Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel who were murdered in the streets of Jerusalem by the invading Idumean army in AD 67/68, aided by the Zealots inside the city who hated and opposed Ananus and those loyal to him governing of the city. Josephus records that a great storm and an earthquake took place that night, just as Revelation 11:13 mentions, and at least that number of 7,000 men slain, including the two former high priests. These two were left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem with their enemies rejoicing by standing on their dead bodies making jokes about both high priests' earnest exhortations while trying to keep order in Jerusalem.
 
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Barraco

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No, that's impossible. The language which describes the two witnesses of Revelation 11 is describing the role of the high priests who were the only ones who were able to "stand before the Lord" in the most holy place. In the post-exilic temple, God limited that high priesthood role to only the family of Zadok who had remained faithful during the exile period. Ezekiel 44:15 describes how the sons of Zadok would be the only ones allowed to "come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God."

In Revelation 11:4, just as in Zechariah 4:14, the two witnesses are called "the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." This is reflective of the menorah lampstand in the OT temple, lighting the entrance to the Most Holy Place, where only the high priests were allowed admittance once a year.

There are no high priests that have existed since the AD 70 era. Therefore, this Revelation 11:3-14 prophecy had to have taken place while there were still high priests around in Jerusalem to perform those actions described in Revelation 11.

The two witnesses of Revelation were the two former high priests Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel who were murdered in the streets of Jerusalem by the invading Idumean army in AD 67/68, aided by the Zealots inside the city who hated and opposed Ananus and those loyal to him governing of the city. Josephus records that a great storm and an earthquake took place that night, just as Revelation 11:13 mentions, and at least that number of 7,000 men slain, including the two former high priests. These two were left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem with their enemies rejoicing by standing on their dead bodies making jokes about both high priests' earnest exhortations while trying to keep order in Jerusalem.
The idea that believers in Jesus, both Jewish and Gentile, is repetitive in Revelation. See below:

“and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The Two Witnesses are what the Bible says they are, not what our eschatological perspective says they are.

“Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭19‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 
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guyver

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. The imagery of fire coming out of their mouths and devouring anyone that tries to harm them can be seen from how Israel retaliates with air strikes when the militants of the nations around them attack their people. When ground forces attack a town, Israel invades an entire city.
I could be wrong but I have always thought that fire coming out of their mouths was -
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

The idea of 2 guys with literal fire coming out of their mouths seems a bit much.
 
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Revelation 11 covers a time when Ephraim and Judah come together as one nation and are granted military success, as detailed in Ezekiel 37, Joel 3, and Zechariah 12. The imagery of fire coming out of their mouths and devouring anyone that tries to harm them can be seen from how Israel retaliates with air strikes when the militants of the nations around them attack their people. When ground forces attack a town, Israel invades an entire city.

I believe we are living in the time of the Two Witnesses. I believe the Times of the Gentiles are coming to a close and God is going bring judgment on the nations surround Jerusalem. Daniel 9:27 says that the prince of the people to come would confirm a covenant with many for the final week of years. I believe the “many” referenced here are the nations surrounding Israel, those of Psalm 83. Even as I type this, the Arab world, both Sunni and Shi’ite, are coming together in opposition of Israel’s invasion of Gaza. This makes me believe that the time of the end of the Gentiles is at hand.

Thoughts?
Well, having been into this thing for about 50 years I can honestly say I've held a variety of opinions on these particular ideas. And over time I've had to amend my positions, in response to more information. I try not to be dogmatic about these things, so I will just give you my current position.

I believe the "2 Witnesses" are two actual prophets yet to appear in Israel. I don't believe they are Elijah and Enoch, or Moses, or anybody in the past. They are prophets yet to come with powers similar to some of these previous prophets. They will minister during the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, and in the end will be murdered by him.

Their ministry immediately precedes Armageddon and the Return of Christ. And their resurrection and ascension seem to reflect what will soon be reflected in the entire Church--what remains of it.

The 70th Week of Daniel 9 was fulfilled in history in the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Abomination of Desolation immediately followed Jesus' ministry in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary.

These views alone have allowed for me to look consistently at all of the related prophecies. Good luck! :)
 
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dwb001

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I could be wrong but I have always thought that fire coming out of their mouths was -
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

The idea of 2 guys with literal fire coming out of their mouths seems a bit much.
Sound right to me. Where exactly was the reference for fire coming from the mouths of the witnesses? Rev 11:5. Right. So if that is what it says... then why would it not be possible?
 
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guyver

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Sound right to me. Where exactly was the reference for fire coming from the mouths of the witnesses? Rev 11:5. Right. So if that is what it says... then why would it not be possible?
Well it's in the future , so why not just shoot their enemies with a hand gun rather than risk burning their nasal hair or singe their eye brows.
 
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dwb001

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Not for this forum even, but if you can care to look to find some Jewish Believers Revelations that no 'church' (except in English mis-translation) is mentioned in the books of Hebrews nor the Apocalypse. What is there is "assembly" , much different than traditional thought or teachings, and likewise throughout those two books.
I have no idea if you even said anything. Your post was confused and went nowhere. Maybe try again. Maybe slow down a bit and your thoughts might get untangled.
 
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dwb001

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Agreed - I believe it will be Elijah and Moses and they will not be wielding M4's, actually, they both have a resume that includes the use of fire from heaven.
Ok. Why do people just not believe something as written?
 
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Barraco

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I could be wrong but I have always thought that fire coming out of their mouths was -
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

The idea of 2 guys with literal fire coming out of their mouths seems a bit much.
Not literally coming from their mouths. They are groups of people. Their military might and success are how they witness to the nations around them. Ezekiel 37 shows Ephraim and Judah rising, taking back Jerusalem, and being united under one king, so that the nations will know the LORD is God.

“say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’ ””
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37‬:‭19‬, ‭22‬, ‭25‬-‭28‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 
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guyver

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Ok. Why do people just not believe something as written?
We do , but we also need biblical interpretation of a thing. If it were not for an angels interpretation of Daniels vision of animals , I would think these animals were literal and must have escaped from the zoo.

In the same way I look for biblical interpretation of fire coming from someones mouth and I come too :

Jeremiah 23:29 - Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
 
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dwb001

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We do , but we also need biblical interpretation of a thing. If it were not for an angels interpretation of Daniels vision of animals , I would think these animals were literal and must have escaped from the zoo.

In the same way I look for biblical interpretation of fire coming from someones mouth and I come too :

Jeremiah 23:29 - Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Good thing that none of that interpretation stuff is called for in Revelation.

So Jer 23:29 reinforces a literal fire coming from the mouths.of the witnesses. Agreed.
 
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