Deut 32, (and Gen 49:1) as the mother of end time prophecies

[Notrash]

I've been working on a list of questions as a proof to connect Daniels 'time of the end' and 'latter days'; the end of the age in the olivet discourse and the time of Revelation with the 'latter end' and 'end' and judgment upon the conditional/national covenant, it's principles and unbelieving people as prophesied in Deut and especially chapter 32 and fulfilled in 30-70 AD. The 'latter end' of the conditional, national covenant would coincide with the fulfillment, enactment, prooving and firm establishment of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy.

The Goal is to force an answer to question 20.

Feel free to discuss, print and circulate for discussion and also to offer suggestions for clarification and refinement.

A preliminary reading of the complete book of Deuteronomy in one or several sittings would be recommended to get a flavor for it's contextual message. Take note of the setting and timing of Moses speech as being east of the Jordan and apparently on the day they crossed the Jordan and accepted the conditions of the corporal/national covenant. Take note also of the attitudes and feelings expressed and connected between chapter 4 and chapter 18 and thus the reason for the need of the new prophet of Duet and new WORDS of Deut 18. A reading of Daniel chapter 9 would also be important with a particular emphasis on the prayer.

1. To what was Daniel referring to as the 'curse of the law' of Moses in Dan 9:11-14? see Deut 28:15ff

2. Was it prophesied in Deut 30:1-5 that after experiencing the blessings 'and' the curse of the law of Deut 28:15ff and after confessing the 'curse of the law' that all Israel would return to the land?

Is there evidence that Daniels prayer of chapter 9 and/or Neh and Ezra fulfilled the requirements of this confession? What evidence? Answer; the evidence of the return to the land from the Babylonian captivity which was specified in Deut 30:3.
The evidence is in Daniels prayer that he specifically noted that his people had come under the curse of the failure to keep the conditional/corporal way of blessing.

3. Some teachers of the dispensational/futurist view say that ‘all Israel’ did not return to the land and that only Judah was represented in Israel at the time of Christ. Is there any reason to not consider these following to refer to the same ‘all Israel’ that was to return to the land? Ezra 2:70; 6:17; 8:25, 8:35; 10:5; Neh 7:73, 12:47. This fulfillment of the return is further confirmed by Pauls quote of Deut 30:10ff in Rom 10:5ff. Note also that some of the northern tribes were intermarried with other nationalities and were present in the land as Samaritans and others.

4. Does Deut 30:6-10 in speaking of the circumcision of the heart appear to be talking of the same event as prophesied in Jer 31 and other places which would be individual (as per Jer 31) rather than corporal?

5. In Duet 30, was any additional time between the return to the land and the circumcision of the heart mentioned in vs 5 or 6? Is the context of the angel’s visitation and the giving of the 70 week time prophecy in the same context of time and a response of his prayer of confession in Dan 9:11-14 which satisfied Deut 30:1-5? Is the angels 483yr prophecy thus interjected between vs's 4 or 5 and verse 6 and as a response to Daniels confession?

6. Was an "END" or 'latter end' prophesied to occur in Dueteronomy after the promised return (Duet 30:1-4) from Babylonian captivity and after the change of heart and (see Deut 4:25,26; 31:29; 32:20,29)

7. Was the mosaic national covenant prophesied to have a beginning (Deut; 1:3; 5:2,3; 9:1; 27:9; 29:1) and an end and destruction? (Duet 4:25,26; 8:16-19; 31:29; 32:20:29) Was the latter end and destruction to be administered in the time of the 'new prophet'. 18:15ff; Acts 3:22-24; Dan 9:25-27

8. Does Paul quote from Deut 30:11ff in Romans 10:5ff indicating it’s fulfillment in the "Word" of the person and Love of God and the Holy Spirit?

9. Does parts of Dan 10 appear to overlap parts of Dan 9:20 ff? Does Dan 10:14 appear to have any similitude to Deut 31:29? Would the 'latter days' of Deut 31:29 thus also apply to parts of the prophecy of Dan 9 as well as the ‘latter days’ of Dan 10:14?

10. According to Dan 9:25; Does Messiah appear on the scene after the 69th week. Did Jesus tell the Samaritan woman that he was 'messiah' very shortly after his baptism?

11. Does Jesus thus proclaim himself as "messiah' to the woman at the well and through his teaching well before triumphal entry and cross? Does the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the Messiah and the 70th week thus occur at his baptism and 3 1/2 yrs before his life being cut short by the cross?

12. Considering the previous proclamations of "a" covenant or "my covenant" http://www.blueletterbible.org/searc...covenant&t=KJV especially to Noah and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ephraim was there any promise or 'covenant' made before Noah to mankind which may have been called “my covenant’ to Noah and Abraham and then referred to as 'the covenant' in Dan 9:27 ? (i.e. edenic promise of a 'seed' of Eve of Gen 3:15) See Rom 8:2; Is 59)

13. Could vs’s 26,27 of Dan 9 be viewed in Hebrew poetry as overlapping with the Messiah being ‘cut off’ in the midst of the 70th week; with other parts of the final week being fulfilled through His Person, the Holy Spirit in the believing apostles and disciples?

14. Did Jesus claim to be spoken of by Moses which would refer to his being the 'new prophet' of Duet 18:15ff who would Speak "new words' of God (See John 5:46) Did Jesus ever claim to speak the very words of God or by the authority of God?

15. Was the Mosaic national covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob? See Deut 1:3; 5:2,3; 27:9, 29:1) Again; note question 7 here.

16. Is the 'old covenant' the one made when he took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt? (Jer 31:32: Dan 9:15) Is the 'old covenant' the same 'conditional/national covenant of Deuteronomy according to the beginning verses of question 7. Was it promised to be replaced by a New prophet with new ordinances and New domain?

17. Did Paul say the 'old covenant' was the administration of death; (2 Cor 3) decaying, inferior, waxing old, ready to pass away in his writings of 40-60 AD; if we include Hebrews with Paul’s writings? Did it 'pass away' shortly after those writings?

18. Is Deut 32 and the writings of the 'end generation' of the mosaic covenant quoted from in Rom 10:19; 12:19; 13:10; Hebrews 1:6; 10:30, and perhaps other places? How are these quotes used in the letters of the apostles to their first century audiences? What is the expectation of the people of the first century to whom the letter was written.

19. What is the "song of Moses" in Rev 15? Why were the people singing it? How could any generation other than the first century generation at the end and judgment of the national covenant sing this song in first hand experience?

20. Is there a reason that all ‘time of the end,’ latter days’, 'latter end", "end of the age", prophecies are not related to this 'end of national Israel’s covenant of Deut 32 and thus fulfilled in the first century?
This would include Deut 32; Daniels overlapping chapters and visions, other prophecies in the prophets about the end or ‘latter days’ of the Mosaic covenant heavens and earth and the ‘NEW” heavens and earth of the “New Prophet”. It would include the ‘latter days’ and other prophecies of EZ 38,39. It would include the prophecies of the “end of the age” in the Olivet discourse and other pertinent final instructions of Jesus and the apostles in their letters including Revelation.

 

[John S]

Notrash - I'm Sorry but this thread is WAY too long. It might be better suited for one of those debate forums.
However, I will agree that Genesis 49 is VERY important. It is better paired with Revelations.
In my opinion, Dan is not mentioned in Revelations because the antichrist comes from that Tribe. I also believe it to be the present country of Italy.
The Tribe of Judah is the Jewish people. They were able to maintain their heritage, even after these many centuries.
The other Tribes are the countries of Western Europe and their "children" in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States of America, who was promised great wealth and power because Joseph was able to stay true to God while in Egypt.
The 144,000 Elect that are mentioned in Revelations are NOT just the Jews. They consist of every Tribe of Israel.

 

[Notrash]

Notrash - I'm Sorry but this thread is WAY too long. It might be better suited for one of those debate forums.
However, I will agree that Genesis 49 is VERY important. It is better paired with Revelations.
In my opinion, Dan is not mentioned in Revelations because the antichrist comes from that Tribe. I also believe it to be the present country of Italy.
The Tribe of Judah is the Jewish people. They were able to maintain their heritage, even after these many centuries.
The other Tribes are the countries of Western Europe and their "children" in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States of America, who was promised great wealth and power because Joseph was able to stay true to God while in Egypt.
The 144,000 Elect that are mentioned in Revelations are NOT just the Jews. They consist of every Tribe of Israel.

I guess if it's way to long, then print it out and study before commenting.
Perhaps take 5 questions at a time. Your reply has little to do with any of the questions.Thanks.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Notrash]

I too agree that Deuteronomy 31-32 is about the end days. Deuteronomy 32:34 shows this prophecy is laid up - sealed.
about an enemy nation against Israel

I think that if you read with an open mind, you may find that Jeshurun's enemy [the Romans] and their leaders are used of God to bring vengeance and judgment against Christ's/God's [mine] enemies and those who persisted in pursuing and persecuting those who believed in God and received the Spirit. This is referenced in Deut 32:42 [NKJV brings it out] They also bring the 'end' and 'latter end' of his administration of the inferior covenant.

In the NT - Romans for example-- we find links to Deuteronomy about the church.
see Romans 10:19

32:21 is quoted in Roman 10:19.
In Pauls use of it, he is answering the question in 60 AD; what about those remaining in unbelief in Israel, are they cast off?. He uses 32:21 to indicate that some of Israel were temporarily hardened till they would see the fullness of the nations coming in, and then would become jealous unto emulation of the fullness of God within those who are not a people. All of this would be primarily within the first century.

Deut 32 is quoted 3 times in Romans and twice in Hebrews. Those verses have first century topics and are mentioned in the series of questions. Isaiah 59 and 61 have association with Deut 32.

Please at least for the first go round. Please try to discipline oneself to answering the questions, rather than commenting on the peripheral topics.

 

[Notrash]

I'm going to bump this once because I think that the answers contained proove that the end times were fulfilled in the first century and were referring to the end of the mosaic covenant age and the very proving of God and his will, end and foundational purposes, and LOVE.

Perhaps there is a better place for it.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Notrash]

The Jews are going to be in blindness while the church comes in -- and that's till they say , Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

I believe that was a short term and individualized statement to those he was talking to. The corporal peoples were ending.
Jesus would reveal himself in the Spirit and teaching of the apostles when they would say concerning the apostles :blessed is he who comes in His name."

The church had to start for Deuteronomy 32:21 as to those which were not a people.
Not until after this part, comes later a sealed nation against Israel in the time of when God hides HIs face from her.

Agreed. Her is unbelieving Israel, not the sealed nation

Deuteronomy 32:43
"...for he will avenge the blood of his servants..."

The 'blood of the servants' is the blood of Christs servants' the apostles and those prophets from Abel onward. Jesus said that on this generation shall come all the righteous blood of the prophets. Their blood was avenged by God against the unbelieving and disillusioned religious / ritualistic national Israel [now like a Babylonian cult religion] who refused to believe and leave the OC ways.

Rom 10 gives some of their mindset.

Dan 7 records that the beast made war against the saints and prevailed.... til the judgment Sat and took effect, and favor was given to the saints of the son of man. Servants, Saints, Son; all the same.

Here's an example:
Lets start with question 1.

To what was Daniel referring to as the 'curse of the law' of Moses in Dan 9:11-14? see Deut 28:15ff

11Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, [the Northern Kingdoms] that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
12And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
13As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
14Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

See the verses following for a description of the curses and the rephrase of the curses in vs 20 and 45 and the verses following them.

We note that these were poeple of the conditional corporal covenant and the principles of blessing/cursing do not apply in the same effect in the new covenant where sins and iniquity are forgotten.

Daniel is acknowledging that the happenings that have occurred to them by the invasion, siege, captivity and destruction ARE the curse of the law of Moses that was prophesied in Deut 28 and several other places in the book. They were unable to keep their end of the bargain. This curses was prophesied to the nation on the day joshua led them across the jordan while moses stayed on the East side.

Jeremiah says that the covenant was broken.... and the ark was removed by the Babylonians.

In the progression of the book of Deuteronomy, this is after a period of other blessings and stumbling and is written and prophesied as a singular time of 'curse' and judgment. But this was not their 'latter end' and utter destruction, [Deut 4:25,26] but a premonition and type of that to follow. In accordance with Deut 30, after confession of this curse and their sins, they would be permitted to return to the land in preparation for the circumcision and indwelling of the heart [Deut 30:5-15] and the end and 'latter end' of the national covenant and it's ways.

The short answer to question 1 is that Daniel was referring to the events surrounding the Babylonian captivity as the CURSE OF THE LAW OF MOSES" of Deut 28:15 ff

 

[Notrash]

25:12
"And it shall come to pass, when seventy years..I will punish the king of Babylon..."

/Babylon didn't rule her full 70 years but fell to the Persians and Medes, so Babylon's king time is not yet over.


Daniel knew Babylon's king time was not yet up.

Daniel 9:2
"...accomplish seventy years...desolations of Jerusalem."

Gabriel comes to give Daniel understanding of Jeremiah's prophecy link as being to the end days--the 70th week.

Daniel 9:23
"...understand the matter..."

Daniel was not praying as to when is the Messiah coming? Daniel was wanting to get clearer information as to Jeremiah's Babylonian kngs have 70 years to desolate Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:27
"...he shall desolate till the consummation..."

till the Babylonian kng time is up

I don't' read this on this way. The 70 yrs were coming to completion which is what caused Daniel to wake up. What was to happen to the everlasting covenant of Love and Mercy promised from the Garden? What was to happen to the people of the mosaic national covenant who were taken by the hand and led out of Egypt who were now in captivity but who also were to usher in that everlasting covenant? I believe the 70 yrs of Jeremiahs prophecy were fulfilled.

Daniel was I believe reading the book of Deuteronomy and Jeremiah and made the confession described in Duet 30:1 calling to mind both the blessing and the curse of the law of Moses.
Remember that this is given in somewhat general terms at this time as Moses is standing East of the Jordan and giving proclamation and prophecy about the future happenings of the nation.

Deuteronomy 30

1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Interesting that this is similar wording to Ezekiels prophecy in chapter 36 and is specifically referring to the return from Babylonian captivity as is evidenced from the specifics of Daniels prayer.

In response to Daniels prayer, the angel brings a message. He is told that there will be a decree to return to the land to rebuild the city and temple and of another 483 yrs to the firm establishment of "THE COVENANT" by Messiah, followed by the [another] destruction of Jerusalem and the rebuilt temple.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Notrash]

Jeremiah gave two seventy-yr prophecies. They both began at the same time, but the one as to a Babylonian king is punished and his land has not yet come to pass in full.

Nebuchadnezar to Cyrus (Persian)
605 -539 B.C.

Cyrus did not take Babylon at the end of seventy years,as not even sixty-eight years had been yet under Babylonian kings.

Jer. 25:11-13 shows the final Babylnian king falls at the end of seventy years.
This is the prophecy that bugged Daniel - and that is why Gabriel came to help Daniel know what will happen. Gabriel brought Jeremiah's 70-yr prophecy into a whole new prophecy of seventy weeks.

Daniel 9:23
"At the begnning of thy supplications the commandment came forth...understand..."

The commandment came forth to send Gabriel as soon as Daniel started at the beginning of the chapter to supplicate.

Jer. 25:12
"And it shall come to pass, when seventy years...punish the king of Babylon...and the land of the Chaldean...perpetual desolation's."

Thanks for the thoughts,
I've not heard of this perspective before and though I disagree I don't have time to research it at this time. I'll put it on the back burner for future observation and awareness. Has anyone else heard of this concept.??

Jer 25 seems to overlap Ezekiel 35 and Isaiah 13 as noted in another thread. They talk of the conquest of babylon by the Medes. Both, or all three I believe to be fulfilled, despite possible particular discrepancies of a few yrs.

From the context of Daniels prayer, what bugged him was that the people were without city and land, and a reproach to his name while the time of Jeremiahs prophecy was coming to a close. How was the everlasting covenant of mercy to be brought to all the world if the nation was to go to ruins and end at this time.

This is then the reason for the 70 week/490 yr prophecy till Messiah... or till Shiloh come.. from Gen 49.

Daniel in referring to the curse of the law of Moses in his prayer acknowledges that the Babylonian captivity was the curse described in Deut 28 as needed to be confessed in Duet 30.

The only thing I can think of if the babylonian captivity would have been short a few yrs was that the last 3 yrs was taken out on Jerusalem/Judea as now a babylonian religions [after Christ] and by the Romans [as the Medes] There is alot of parallel symbolism to that effect. One is that Isaiah 13 has the exact same figurative language for the conquest of Babylon by the medes that Jesus applies to the conquest and desolation of Jerusalem and Judea by the coming Romans in the Olivet discourse.

But I view the occurance to babylon [and to Jerusalem by babylon] as a prophetic type of the 'latter end' to Judea/Jerusalem by the Romans and not an actual fulfillment of any leftover years of captivity and desolation.

I'll keep an open ear about it, but dont' have time to dig much further right now and may not respond promptly even to this thread.

Feel free to start another thread about it, and save this space to continue on with the questions here.

 

[Biblewriter]

The entire OP is nothing but interpretation, as are the follow-up comments.

You have repeatedly said, in various ways, that you refuse to to "play the game" of discussing prophetic scriptures that have unquestionably not been fulfilled.

There is a clear reason that you refuse "to play" that "game." You can give endless interpretations of the meanings of many scriptures. But you cannot answer the many explicit prophecies the state coming events that simply have not taken place. You call these "peripheral topics," but that is nothing but a deceptive tactic for avoiding a direct discussion of what they say.

You said in the OP that "The Goal is to force an answer to question 20."

Question 20 was " Is there a reason that all ‘time of the end,’ latter days’, 'latter end", "end of the age", prophecies are not related to this 'end of national Israel’s covenant of Deut 32 and thus fulfilled in the first century"

All your interpretations of the meanings of these scriptures cannot get around the explicit statements of these many other scriptures. So you pretend that they are only "peripheral topics."

The direct answer to your question 20 is that the "reason that all ‘time of the end,’ latter days’, 'latter end", "end of the age", prophecies are not related to this 'end of national Israel’s covenant of Deut 32" is that this interpretation simply sets aside and ignores the explicit statements of a great many clearly stated end time prophecies. I am not talking about prophecies delivered in apocalyptic language. I am talking about prophecies stated in such clear, simple language as "And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders." (Micah 5:5-6) You cannot be ignorant of the fact that no Israeli army has ever invaded Assyria, and there is not even one scripture anywhere that applies Assyria in a typical fashion, so there can be no question whatsoever that this prophecy has not been fulfilled. I do not give this one as particularly significant in itself, but simply as an example of what I am talking about.

You find excuses to interpret many of these prophecies as having been fulfilled in a typical fashion in the church. But this system of interpretation simply breaks down on a great many of these prophecies. I have repeatedly quoted many of these to you, and you have flatly refused to even discuss them. The reason you refuse to discuss these prophecies is obviously because you cannot answer them.

 

[andross77]

The entire OP is nothing but interpretation, as are the follow-up comments.

You have repeatedly said, in various ways, that you refuse to to "play the game" of discussing prophetic scriptures that have unquestionably not been fulfilled.

There is a clear reason that you refuse "to play" that "game." You can give endless interpretations of the meanings of many scriptures. But you cannot answer the many explicit prophecies the state coming events that simply have not taken place. You call these "peripheral topics," but that is nothing but a deceptive tactic for avoiding a direct discussion of what they say.

You said in the OP that "The Goal is to force an answer to question 20."

Question 20 was " Is there a reason that all ‘time of the end,’ latter days’, 'latter end", "end of the age", prophecies are not related to this 'end of national Israel’s covenant of Deut 32 and thus fulfilled in the first century"

All your interpretations of the meanings of these scriptures cannot get around the explicit statements of these many other scriptures. So you pretend that they are only "peripheral topics."

The direct answer to your question 20 is that the "reason that all ‘time of the end,’ latter days’, 'latter end", "end of the age", prophecies are not related to this 'end of national Israel’s covenant of Deut 32" is that this interpretation simply sets aside and ignores the explicit statements of a great many clearly stated end time prophecies. I am not talking about prophecies delivered in apocalyptic language. I am talking about prophecies stated in such clear, simple language as "And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders." (Micah 5:5-6) You cannot be ignorant of the fact that no Israeli army has ever invaded Assyria, and there is not even one scripture anywhere that applies Assyria in a typical fashion, so there can be no question whatsoever that this prophecy has not been fulfilled. I do not give this one as particularly significant in itself, but simply as an example of what I am talking about.

You find excuses to interpret many of these prophecies as having been fulfilled in a typical fashion in the church. But this system of interpretation simply breaks down on a great many of these prophecies. I have repeatedly quoted many of these to you, and you have flatly refused to even discuss them. The reason you refuse to discuss these prophecies is obviously because you cannot answer them.

interpretation of above post = layin' the smack down!

 

[son_flower]

Jeremiah gave two seventy-yr prophecies. They both began at the same time, but the one as to a Babylonian king is punished and his land has not yet come to pass in full.

Nebuchadnezar to Cyrus (Persian)
605 -539 B.C.

Cyrus did not take Babylon at the end of seventy years,as not even sixty-eight years had been yet under Babylonian kings.

605 is incorrect. Josiah was killed by the attack of Babylon in 609 and Jehoiakim began his reign at this time, which marks the beginning of the 70 years.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[son_flower]

Jer. 25:1 shows the first year of Nebuchadnezzar was the third year of Jehoiakim.

Actually Jer.25:1 is the 4th year of Jehoiakim.
He already had served Nebuchadnezzar for 3 when Jeremiah received the prophecy.

Jer.25:1
The word came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.

This was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar in exile.
The previous 3 years were served while still in Jerusalem.

2King.24:1 In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years: then he turned and rebelled against him.

Judah served the king of Babylon 70 years total.
This is the prophecy, that they should serve 70 years. And they did.

Jer.25:11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

 

[Notrash]

interpretation of above post = layin' the smack down!

It's avoiding the questions of the OP and the proofs that are found in at the time of the giving of the covenant itself. There is no 'smack-down'.

If national Israel was formed by this covenant in Deuteronomy, and the book of Deuteronomy itself says that it was formed by and was begun by this covenant, AND an 'end', utter destruction, and latter end of the covenant entity was to occur at the time of the New Prophet, then all prophecies concerning and related to God's administration of 'national' mosaic covenant Israel [and the extension of it's houses] would have occurred [and had to occur] within the time frame God allotted for mosaic covenant 'national Israel'.

The prophecies spoken by the prophets were not spoken or written to individuals 3000 yrs later but were spoken to the people of their time period or by extension to people within the time of the corporal/conditional covenant and it's entity.

Some were spoken to these dual covenant people concerning the time, nature and qualities of the full establishment/ restoration and blessing of the eternal covenant and restoration and development of individual relationship with the Father.

Those prophecies pertaining to the Israel of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy and Love were and are administered individually through the New Prophet [to the believing Jews first] and as promised to Abraham would apply to all peoples of the earth [under Adam] in the New and latter covenant. This was the 'restoration' and fulfillment of God's administration through individuals that was before the national covenant..... Like Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

The restoration and fulfillment of the covenant of Grace was symbolized by the blessing and the characterization of the qualities/principles and elements in the life of the 'latter son' [covenant] of Grace over and after the former son of the mosaic covenant. Abraham over Nimrod [not stated, but implied] Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau and Ephraim over and after Manasseh. This is interpreted this way by Paul in Gal 4. And we take note that in both Jer 31 and Hosea 11, when the prophet speaks of Israel and Ephraim in the same chapter. Jesus, just before his death taught from a town named Ephraim on the Jordan river. There is no restoration promised to the blessing to the former son of the conditional mosaic law.

When they would return from Babylonian captivity they [the people of the nation take by the hand and led out of Egypt as noted in Daniels prayer and as referred to by Jeremiah in chapter 31] were to receive the circumcision of the heart through faith and the indwelling of Love. But the angel came to interject 490 yrs between vs 5 and 6 of Duet 30, so they could confirm the timing of his coming. This would be followed by the end and 'latter end' of the mosaic covenant and it's nation BUT the circumcision and indwelling would continue generation after generation Apart from the law. Read again Romans 10:5-10. which recognizes the fulfillment of the circumcision/indwelling that was prophesied in Duet 30.

There is a clear reason that you refuse "to play" that "game." You can give endless interpretations of the meanings of many scriptures. But you cannot answer the many explicit prophecies the state coming events that simply have not taken place. You call these "peripheral topics," but that is nothing but a deceptive tactic for avoiding a direct discussion of what they say.

I refuse to play because there is no end to it because when they are openly shown to have been fulfilled, you deny and reject the fulfillment. It becomes I say, you say. You just find another one and then add your futurists twists to them in your interpretations without understanding the purpose and the temporal nature of the mosaic covenant "nation" of Israel. EZ 36 is yet ANOTHER example from others in discussion yrs ago. Isaiah 65, 61, Jer 31, Dan 9, 7 and countless others were dealt with previously by myself and others. You glorify racism of God the creators working through a temporal covenant, and now glorify the war-god.

The words clearly, unquestionably, without doubt, and so forth declare the insecurity and forced agenda of your interpretations.

Let your yes be yes and no be no.

I have other things to do, and the questions and their answers speak for themselves.

In the words of Everyman to the Gravedigger, in the words given by Anthem, In the name of Earth maker, be thou what you are.

 

[Notrash]

The short answer to question 1 is that Daniel was referring to the events surrounding the Babylonian captivity as the CURSE OF THE LAW OF MOSES" of Deut 28:15 ff

Question 2.

2. Was it prophesied in Deut 30:1-5 that after experiencing the blessings 'and' the curse of the law of Deut 28:15ff and after confessing the 'curse of the law' that the people would return to the land?

Yes

1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Is there evidence that Daniels prayer of chapter 9 and/or Neh and Ezra fulfilled the requirements of this confession? What evidence?


Answer; Yes!! The evidence is in the return to the land through the conquest of the Medes and through the decree promised to Daniel as a result of his confession and prayer. He referred to the Babylonian captivity as the curse of the law of Moses 1000 yrs after the law and prophecy was given by Moses.

for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. [the Babylonian captivity and destruction.

11Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 12And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
13As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

14Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

The return from a captivity was specified in Deut 30:3

3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

 

[Biblewriter]

I refuse to play because there is no end to it because when they are openly shown to have been fulfilled, you deny and reject the fulfillment. It becomes I say, you say. You just find another one and then add your futurists twists to them in your interpretations without understanding the purpose and the temporal nature of the mosaic covenant "nation" of Israel. EZ 36 is yet ANOTHER example from others in discussion yrs ago.

I do not "twist" these prophecies to fit a futurist interpretation. I point out that what they explicitly say has never happened. This is not interpretation. It is accepting what they say. I simply believe that when God says such-and-such will happen, he meant exactly what He said.

You do not "openly show these prophecies to be fulfilled." Instead, you have repeatedly twisted them to mean something different from what they say, and then pretended that in that sense they have been fulfilled. This is interpretation. And the only way you were able to make these interpretations seem to work was to ignore many of the details contained in the prophecies. When confronted on this you have simply claimed that these details were not important. This is irreverence toward the word of God.

The words unquestionably, without doubt, and so forth declare the insecurity and forced agenda of your interpretations.

Let your yes be yes and no be no.

I have other things to do, and the questions and their answers speak for themselves.

Actually, the words Unquestionably, without doubt, and so forth are for stress, not expressions of insecurity.

You claim that the prophecies I bring up are distractions, or changing the subject. But they are neither distractions nor changing the subject, as you claim. Instead of bringing these up, you want me to directly address that correctness or incorrectness of the individual points of your interpretations. But all claims about what specific scriptures mean are matters of opinion. I cannot prove that your opinion of the meaning of a specific scripture is incorrect, and you cannot prove that my opinion about the meaning of a specific scripture is incorrect.

But what scriptures explicitly say is something very different. Citing a scripture that explicitly says the very opposite of what someone says another scripture means proves that the interpretation is incorrect. This is what I have repeatedly done, and this is why doing this this is neither changing the subject or offering distractions. Instead, it is presenting proof that your interpretations cannot be correct.

I will again point out that you cannot even pretend that Israel has ever ruled "the land of Assyria with the sword," either literally or figuratively, or has even been able to respond to an Assyrian attack by raising up against them "seven shepherds and eight principle men." But Micah 5:5-6 explicitly says that both of these will happen. There are many such prophecies. You find ways to wrest some of these to fit your system of interpretation. But you simply cannot wrest all of them in your gross fashion.