The Two Witnesses

[guyver]

Not literally coming from their mouths. They are groups of people. Their military might and success are how they witness to the nations around them. Ezekiel 37 shows Ephraim and Judah rising, taking back Jerusalem, and being united under one king, so that the nations will know the LORD is God.

“say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’ ””
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37‬:‭19‬, ‭22‬, ‭25‬-‭28‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Try as I may Barraco , I really can't come at this. They are actually two men , The two the jews have been waiting for.

John 1 :
1And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

And he answered, “No.”

 

[dwb001]

Yes, no change. See in the Epistles how often the "Bible believers" are called carnal, fleshly, unspiritual, worldly .... and even more about today .....

Yep... we are all screwed up.

 

[Barraco]

Try as I may Barraco , I really can't come at this. They are actually two men , The two the jews have been waiting for.

John 1 :
1And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

And he answered, “No.”

But didn’t Elijah and Moses tend to Jesus during His transfiguration? And Jesus said that Elijah had come as John the Baptist (Matthew 11:14). The prophecy comes from Malachi 4:4-6, where they are called to remember Moses and that Elijah would come to turn peoples hearts around, or else God would strike the land with a curse. According to history, they did not repent and God struck the land with a curse.

 

[guyver]

But didn’t Elijah and Moses tend to Jesus during His transfiguration? And Jesus said that Elijah had come as John the Baptist (Matthew 11:14). The prophecy comes from Malachi 4:4-6, where they are called to remember Moses and that Elijah would come to turn peoples hearts around, or else God would strike the land with a curse. According to history, they did not repent and God struck the land with a curse.

This is a huge study Barraco , one which I did 15 yrs ago and oh man it was fantastic and i'm glad I did it.
I would suggest to you or anyone reading this to type into a search engine something like , "was john the baptist elijah".

I began my study because I wanted to know why John was wearing a camel fur outfit , then I found the answer.
Elijah was a hairy man with a leather belt around his waist and john was wearing a camel fur outfit with a leather belt around his waist.
In other words , john was to appear physically as Elijah , a hairy man with a leather belt around his waist.

Anyway thats the best I can offer Barraco , it would take me forever to try and explain it all.

 

[anetazo]

Revelation chapter 11 . The two witnesses are before throne of God, zechariah chapter 4 to document.

Enoch and Elijah were both translated, thier flesh body didn't experience death. Moses body was never found.

In gospel of Matthew, moses and Elijah appeared at the mount of transfiguration before Jesus.

Most scholars believe moses and Elijah are the two witnesses of revelation chapter 11. I don't have personal opion on it.

 

[trophy33]

Two witnesses - Peter and Paul.

Killed by the beast Nero.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Two witnesses - Peter and Paul.

Killed by the beast Nero.

How is that possible when the two witnesses of Revelation 11 were going to be slain and lie unburied in the streets of Jerusalem? That was not true in the case of Peter and Paul whose martyrdom was under Nero.

 

[trophy33]

How is that possible when the two witnesses of Revelation 11 were going to be slain and lie unburied in the streets of Jerusalem? That was not true in the case of Peter and Paul whose martyrdom was under Nero.

I do not read Revelation as literal.

 

[dwb001]

I do not read Revelation as literal.

So that would be an example of you disbelieving the Bible.
Not a great way to go.

 

[trophy33]

So that would be an example of you disbelieving the Bible.
Not a great way to go.

Revelation is not a literal book. Its not related to belief or unbelief in any way, it related to genre.

 

[dwb001]

Revelation is not a literal book. Its not related to belief or unbelief in any way, it related to genre.

I respectfully disagree.
Very literal.
And it is as salvational as Genesis.

 

[trophy33]

Another possibility is James and Peter. These two would be more bound to literal Jerusalem than Paul.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I do not read Revelation as literal.

Revelation is not a literal book. Its not related to belief or unbelief in any way, it related to genre.

Certainly, symbolism plays a large part in how Revelation is presented as apocalyptic genre. It tells us from the get-go that Revelation was "signified" (Rev. 1:1).

But those "signs" pointed toward actual literal and / or spiritual events on the timeline. I would be interested in seeing how you symbolically interpret the specified length of time these two witnesses were to testify. Scripture specifies 1,260 days for their testimony, (which doesn't really equal the timespan in which the Apostles preached), after which they were slain and left unburied with their enemies rejoicing.

Also, you will need to explain how the Scarlet Beast which was "about to arise" in John's days (but which did not then exist at that point in time) would be able to slay both Peter and Paul, or James and Peter. If this was Nero having the Apostles killed, then Nero did not exist yet as of the time John was writing Revelation. And we know that isn't a fact.

Also, how did these Apostles ever bring a drought where heaven's rain was halted during that 1,260 days?

Also, can you give the symbolic sense of the great earthquake which happened at the same hour as the simultaneous death of these two? And how they caused a tenth of the city of Jerusalem to fall, or a third of men (a 7,000 number of men) in Jerusalem to be slain? If you reduce all of this to symbolism, it starts to get really sticky.

There is a record from Josephus of all these details happening on the same occasion around the Idumean attack on Jerusalem, and I don't need to stretch it to make it fit exactly.

 

[trophy33]

Certainly, symbolism plays a large part in how Revelation is presented as apocalyptic genre. It tells us from the get-go that Revelation was "signified" (Rev. 1:1).

But those "signs" pointed toward actual literal and / or spiritual events on the timeline. I would be interested in seeing how you symbolically interpret the specified length of time these two witnesses were to testify. Scripture specifies 1,260 days for their testimony, (which doesn't really equal the timespan in which the Apostles preached), after which they were slain and left unburied with their enemies rejoicing.

Also, you will need to explain how the Scarlet Beast which was "about to arise" in John's days (but which did not then exist at that point in time) would be able to slay both Peter and Paul, or James and Peter. If this was Nero having the Apostles killed, then Nero did not exist yet as of the time John was writing Revelation. And we know that isn't a fact.

Also, how did these Apostles ever bring a drought where heaven's rain was halted during that 1,260 days?

Also, can you give the symbolic sense of the great earthquake which happened at the same hour as the simultaneous death of these two? And how they caused a tenth of the city of Jerusalem to fall, or a third of men (a 7,000 number of men) in Jerusalem to be slain? If you reduce all of this to symbolism, it starts to get really sticky.

There is a record from Josephus of all these details happening on the same occasion around the Idumean attack on Jerusalem, and I don't need to stretch it to make it fit exactly.

It would be long to write it myself, so I will provide you a full link for James and Peter interpretation: https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/parousia/Parousia_Russell.pdf

Two witnesses are from page 299.

Edit: what is your interpretation of two witnesses that "fits exactly"?

 

[3 Resurrections]

It would be long to interpret it myself, so I will provide you a full link for James and Peter interpretation: https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/parousia/Parousia_Russell.pdf

Two witnesses are from page 299.

Thank you for the link, myst33. It has been a while since I read the Parousia, so I looked up the pertinent material on those pages and read them through again. Russel doesn't have the right date for James's martyrdom, as he said Hegesippus put it in AD 69. It was in AD 63 instead. We know this because the high priest Ananus ben Annas who came into office in AD 63 was deposed from that office after only serving 3 months. He had authorized the slaying of James in Jerusalem. This overstepped the bounds of his authority as a high priest, so he was put out of office in AD 63.

This means James who was slain in AD 63 was not martyred at the same time as Peter (who lived past the AD 64 fire at Rome and wrote 1 Peter 4:12 to comfort the saints going through the subsequent "fiery trial" afterward). The prediction that the two witnesses would be martyred at the same time and location could not then be describing James and Peter.

It is quite strange that Russell goes on to include the story of the Idumean attack on Jerusalem as linked with this Revelation 11 prophecy. He even goes so far as to admit that it could possibly be the fulfillment of this Revelation 11 prophecy (on page # 306-307). But oddly enough, he doesn't recognize that the two former high priests Ananus and Joshua were slain together and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem.

Perhaps Russell disregarded the martyrdom of these two men Ananas and Joshua because he assumed that the two witnesses were required to be ministers of Christ presenting the gospel. That isn't necessary from the context of this prophecy. A "prophet" can be one who speaks forth a testimony in a court of law in a judicial case. The message these two men gave to their fellow countrymen had been warning them to keep the peace or they would suffer utter destruction at the hands of the Romans. Their moderating influence in the city of Jerusalem was hated by the nationalistic Zealot's interests, whose violent tendencies Ananus as governor of Jerusalem had been keeping in check until the Idumean attack.

 

[trophy33]

Thank you for the link, myst33. It has been a while since I read the Parousia, so I looked up the pertinent material on those pages and read them through again. Russel doesn't have the right date for James's martyrdom, as he said Hegesippus put it in AD 69. It was in AD 63 instead. We know this because the high priest Ananus ben Annas who came into office in AD 63 was deposed from that office after only serving 3 months. He had authorized the slaying of James in Jerusalem. This overstepped the bounds of his authority as a high priest, so he was put out of office in AD 63.

This means James who was slain in AD 63 was not martyred at the same time as Peter (who lived past the AD 64 fire at Rome and wrote 1 Peter 4:12 to comfort the saints going through the subsequent "fiery trial" afterward). The prediction that the two witnesses would be martyred at the same time and location could not then be describing James and Peter.

It is quite strange that Russell goes on to include the story of the Idumean attack on Jerusalem as linked with this Revelation 11 prophecy. He even goes so far as to admit that it could possibly be the fulfillment of this Revelation 11 prophecy (on page # 306-307). But oddly enough, he doesn't recognize that the two former high priests Ananus and Joshua were slain together and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem.

Perhaps Russell disregarded the martyrdom of these two men Ananas and Joshua because he assumed that the two witnesses were required to be ministers of Christ presenting the gospel. That isn't necessary from the context of this prophecy. A "prophet" can be one who speaks forth a testimony in a court of law in a judicial case. The message these two men gave to their fellow countrymen had been warning them to keep the peace or they would suffer utter destruction at the hands of the Romans. Their moderating influence in the city of Jerusalem was hated by the nationalistic Zealot's interests, whose violent tendencies Ananus as governor of Jerusalem had been keeping in check until the Idumean attack.

According to wiki:

Peter died between AD 64–68
James died in 62 or 69

I never expected them to die in the exact same time. Why do you think its necessary?

Also, do you have some source about your interpretation?

 

[3 Resurrections]

According to wiki:

Peter died between AD 64–68
James died in 62 or 69

I never expected them to die in the exact same time. Why do you think its necessary?

Also, do you have some source about your interpretation?

It's necessary because the simultaneous death of the two witnesses is presented that way in Revelation 11: the same time and the same location, with the same treatment of their bodies by the same Scarlet Beast during that same hour of the earthquake in Jerusalem.

Apparently, I can now claim Russell as agreeing with me to some extent as to this Idumean attack being linked with Revelation 11.
As for someone else who agrees with this interpretation, you might try the Preterist Adam Maarschalk's website "Pursuing Truth". He has a post on Revelation 11 which goes into more detail about this Idumean attack by their 20,000 horsemen (the "two myriads") led by their four commanders (the "four messengers"). This link below may work...

The Two Witnesses Killed by the Beast (Revelation 11:3-13)

This post continues the series, “The Beast of Revelation Was Zealot-Led Israel.” The introduction and outline to this series can be seen here. In the previous post, “The Gentiles Trampled Jerusalem…

adammaarschalk.com

 

[trophy33]

It's necessary because the simultaneous death of the two witnesses is presented that way in Revelation 11: the same time and the same location, with the same treatment of their bodies by the same Scarlet Beast during that same hour of the earthquake in Jerusalem.

Apparently, I can now claim Russell as agreeing with me to some extent as to this Idumean attack being linked with Revelation 11.
As for someone else who agrees with this interpretation, you might try the Preterist Adam Maarschalk's website "Pursuing Truth". He has a post on Revelation 11 which goes into more detail about this Idumean attack by their 20,000 horsemen (the "two myriads") led by their four commanders (the "four messengers"). This link below may work...

The Two Witnesses Killed by the Beast (Revelation 11:3-13)

This post continues the series, “The Beast of Revelation Was Zealot-Led Israel.” The introduction and outline to this series can be seen here. In the previous post, “The Gentiles Trampled Jerusalem…

adammaarschalk.com

I do not see that the two witnesses must by killed simultaneously, in the text. It can be read that way, but does not need to, IMO.

I have a bit of problem with two witnesses "before God" to be unchristian figures who rejected God.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I have a bit of problem with two witnesses "before God" to be unchristian figures who rejected God.

This phrase was used to describe the high priesthood role, as I mentioned back on the first page of this post. To "stand before the Lord of the whole earth" spoke to the access which only the high priests had into the Holy of Holies. The "lampstand" imagery was a symbol of lighting the entrance to the Holy of Holies where only the high priests were allowed to go. The high priesthood role served as God's witness to the people of Israel, and as their representative before the Lord. That is, until Christ, whose anointing as our Great High Priest made that Levitical high priesthood outmoded and defunct - needing to be laid aside as part of the "weak and beggarly elements".

 

[Barraco]

"'You are my witnesses,' declares the LORD, 'and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and part from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed -- I, and no some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,' declares the LORD, 'that I am God.'"

- Isaiah 43:10-13

The "You" being addressed are the nation of Israel, Ephraim and Judah together. They have always been commissioned to witness to the nations that the LORD is the only God. The idea was that God would bless them with prosperity and military success so that people would want to know their God. When they took on the the likeness of the nations around them, they failed to witness to them. Romans 11 is clear that all of Israel will be saved. It is not a question of "If." It is a question of "When."

I believe that we might be seeing the Two Witnesses begin to prophecy in our own time. I believe Israel (Judah) is going to have military success and the United States of America (Ephraim) are going to support them in securing their peace from the nations around them. We are seeing this even as we debate this topic. The USS Eisenhower served their crew lobster and steak for dinner, a meal saved for holidays and events that are sure to lower the morale of the sailors, such as war. Israel is attacking Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria. Protests against Israel are erupting all over the world. How can we not see what is going on? Is this the work of Replacement Theology that is blinding us?