Day of the Lord all happens together

[Spiritual Jew]

I Agree 100%

How do you know if the poster is sealed by the Holy Spirit, you really don't

I didn't say that I know that. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. She hasn't said anything to lead me to believe she is not a Christian. Nowhere does scripture say that you need to have a perfect understanding of end times doctrine in order to be a Christian.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And that is what the `Sheep` people were doing.

What are you intending to say here? Can you please specifically address what I said?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Peter only knew about Israel and the Lord being their Messiah and His coming again to set up Israel as ruler of the nations.

`Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom (rule) to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

I don't believe you are specifically addressing my points.

When do you believe the following will occur and what is your understanding of this passage:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[Marilyn C]

I don't believe you are specifically addressing my points.

When do you believe the following will occur and what is your understanding of this passage:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

If the Rapture is next year, then -

 

[Marilyn C]

God has given the `Times and Seasons` for us to know when it is His Appointed Time for the Rapture for the Body of Christ.



The Festival Season of Lights is fulfilled when the Lord returns to deliver Israel. That event is right in the middle of Israel`s 8 day festival – 29th Kislev.

Then the Feast of Purim is fulfilled when the Lord has overcome Israel`s enemies and they celebrate their National Deliverance – 15th Adar.

In between those two dates is the end of the 7 years – 29th Tevet.



If the 7 years starts in 2025 then when we count back 7 years from the 29th of Tevet and we come to the 12th of Adar. That is the 12th of March in our Solar Calendar. (see chart at the end of the book for Israel`s Lunar (moon) Calendar and our Solar (sun) Calendar.)



Knowing the seasons has helped us to gain an insight into when the 7 years start, and the Peace treaty will occur. If it is next year, 2025 then it will be 12th March.


Is there something more in God`s word to help us?



Yes, the prophet Joel`s prophecy which is very important. We read –

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand.

A Day of darkness and gloominess, a Day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)



It will take many days even weeks for this great army to gather, so huge is it. The media will be following its build up and journey towards Israel. This is our time to get ready to be caught away to be with the Lord.



May we all `watch` and be ready!

 

[Marilyn C]

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If the Rapture is next year, then -

View attachment 351004

What?! I can't make any sense of that. Can you tell me your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 using words? What is your understanding of the "sudden destruction" that will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord? What is the scope of it (local, global)? How long will it last?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

God has given the `Times and Seasons` for us to know when it is His Appointed Time for the Rapture for the Body of Christ.



The Festival Season of Lights is fulfilled when the Lord returns to deliver Israel. That event is right in the middle of Israel`s 8 day festival – 29th Kislev.

Then the Feast of Purim is fulfilled when the Lord has overcome Israel`s enemies and they celebrate their National Deliverance – 15th Adar.

In between those two dates is the end of the 7 years – 29th Tevet.



If the 7 years starts in 2025 then when we count back 7 years from the 29th of Tevet and we come to the 12th of Adar. That is the 12th of March in our Solar Calendar. (see chart at the end of the book for Israel`s Lunar (moon) Calendar and our Solar (sun) Calendar.)



Knowing the seasons has helped us to gain an insight into when the 7 years start, and the Peace treaty will occur. If it is next year, 2025 then it will be 12th March.


Is there something more in God`s word to help us?



Yes, the prophet Joel`s prophecy which is very important. We read –

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand.

A Day of darkness and gloominess, a Day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)



It will take many days even weeks for this great army to gather, so huge is it. The media will be following its build up and journey towards Israel. This is our time to get ready to be caught away to be with the Lord.



May we all `watch` and be ready!

Your doctrine is so convoluted that only you can understand it. Is that how truth works? It's such that only you can understand it? Do you believe that God reveals truth to only one person? Believe me, you're not the only lone wolf (so to speak) out there. I've seen many people on these forums who have doctrines all to themselves. But, why? I have no idea. It doesn't matter to you if no one else agrees with you?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

 

[Marilyn C]

What?! I can't make any sense of that. Can you tell me your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 using words? What is your understanding of the "sudden destruction" that will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord? What is the scope of it (local, global)? How long will it last?

After the Russian war (northern army Ez. 38 15 Joel 2: 20) when God deals with them and those with them, (the great army) then there will be a Peace Treaty. The world will think that at last there is Peace and safety in the Middle East, and no WW 3. Then the tribulation will begin - `sudden destruction.`

 

[Spiritual Jew]

After the Russian war (northern army Ez. 38 15 Joel 2: 20) when God deals with them and those with them, (the great army) then there will be a Peace Treaty. The world will think that at last there is Peace and safety in the Middle East, and no WW 3. Then the tribulation will begin - `sudden destruction.`

So, how long do you think this tribulation will last that will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? Peter described that "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that will come on the day of the Lord as a thief in the night here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

After the Russian war (northern army Ez. 38 15 Joel 2: 20) when God deals with them and those with them, (the great army) then there will be a Peace Treaty. The world will think that at last there is Peace and safety in the Middle East, and no WW 3. Then the tribulation will begin - `sudden destruction.`

Can you show where Paul indicates that them saying "peace and safety" has anything to do with world peace because of peace in the Middle East?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

I don't see it. In context, them saying "peace and safety" relates to them being in spiritual darkness and not being aware of that. So, they think they are spiritually at peace and are spiritually safe when in reality they are not and will experience God's wrath because of their rebellion against Him.

 

[Marilyn C]

So, how long do you think this tribulation will last that will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? Peter described that "sudden destruction" that will come on the day of the Lord as a thief in the night here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The trib. is 6.11 months. The Day of the Lord is from the time of the Russian war, (Joel 2: 1 & 2) through the trib, and millennium. Thus over 1,007 years (the 7 years is the time of the final chastisement of Israel. (Dan. 9: 24 - 27)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The trib. is 6.11 months. The Day of the Lord is from the time of the Russian war, (Joel 2: 1 & 2) through the trib, and millennium. Thus over 1,007 years (the 7 years is the time of the final chastisement of Israel. (Dan. 9: 24 - 27)

This makes no sense whatsoever. How does 1,007 years, including almost 7 years of tribulation, equate to "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" by way of fire that comes down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12)?

Why is it that your understanding of these things is not described anywhere in the New Testament? That suggests that the NT authors had a different understanding of the OT than you do because they repeatedly referenced OT prophecies and explained what they mean.

 

[Marilyn C]

This makes no sense whatsoever. How does 1,007 years, including almost 7 years of tribulation, equate to "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" by way of fire that comes down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12)?

Why is it that your understanding of these things is not described anywhere in the New Testament? That suggests that the NT authors had a different understanding of the OT than you do because they repeatedly referenced OT prophecies and explained what they mean.

`in which`........in the Day of the Lord. In Greek the word Day means a time period and also a specific day. From Joel 2 we see that the Day of the Lord time period begins. And then we know that when the Lord returns in power and great glory with His angelic army that that is the Day of the Lord specific. (Rev. 6: 12 - 17) 2 Peter tells us when the Day of the Lord time period finishes - heavens and earth dissolve.

 

[Truth7t7]

I didn't say that I know that. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. She hasn't said anything to lead me to believe she is not a Christian. Nowhere does scripture say that you need to have a perfect understanding of end times doctrine in order to be a Christian.

You don't know if a poster on the internet is brethren, don't use it loosely

 

[JulieB67]

You have completely missed the point.

I've been on vacation but wanted to say many have missed mine. The subject was Satan, I believe he will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God (it specifically states sides to the north)-something that has never happened in history. And others don't. It's that simple. I have scriptures that I believe back that up. Others see it differently. Unless someone can absolutely prove that's not going to happen within scripture, I don't believe my timing is off.

Again, I like to believe I have an open mind and have dropped doctrines in the past I once believed. I have also studied the Amil position a bit. Of course I don't claim to know that position entirely but I've seen different Amils with different views so it's confusing at times. But I also realize that's the case with many premils as well. I know that preterist believe all has been fulfilled. Eclipse believes that Christ could return any moment. Which is why I put him in the same boat as the pretribbers and I suppose I mistakenly put SG in there as well.

But again other than just a few verses here and there that might be questionable when it comes to Amil- when I take the bible as a whole, I just can't reconcile certain verses with it. Just as you have certain verses as well that base your belief.

We know Revelation is not in complete chronological order but I believe 19 until the end are. There's no reason after Christ returns to therefore go back in time again. I realize many see the 1000 years as symbolic while others see it literally. But to me it's impossible not to connect these verses after Christ returns-

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

I don't believe this event has not happened so then I don't believe the 1000 years started. Again, unless someone can show within scripture the event with the beast and the mark and those worshipping the beast has happened I will believe what the scriptures state.

We also see verses like this-

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

This is when he returns. He's going to rule the nations with a rod of iron. And we get a glimpse of the disciples ruling with him -

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Christ is sitting on the right hand of God at this moment when he returns he will sit in the throne of HIs glory. He will not be sitting on the right hand.
We know that on that final Judgement Day it will be only one throne and God. So this a time period before the final judgement day when others are ruling and judging with him.

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away: and there was found no place for them."


Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Again, one throne, one God.


Amils talk about Christ being the firstfruits and that's true.


I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

This would be after the 1000 years because he hasn't even sat on his throne of glory with the disciples judging with them, etc. It states when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power.

But when talking about the 2 resurrections in chapter 20 Christ isn't talking about himself. He's talking about the 2 resurrections that take place after his return.

He specifically states what is the first resurrection after his return -



Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

It specifically states those that had not worshipped the beast, his image, etc lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years -that is the first resurrection after Christ returns. Again, he is not talking about himself. There's nothing to suggest he is.

The rest of the dead lived not again until after the final judgement Day. Those have to wait for their resurrection. The ones that made it before the 1000 years- Christ states the 2nd death has no power over them because they've already made it.


Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

We're not going to change each other's minds but I was only responding to SG because he stated my timing was off and I responded that I don't believe that because Satan has not sat on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. I believe when he's literally cast out that will happen, that's when he, the devil will thrown some in prison so on.

I believe that he literally will be here with his angels. Again, others don't. I'm fine with that. I was just responding to again the belief that my timing is off. If Satan has not sat on the throne yet, I don't believe my timing is off as it has not happened yet. I believe his spirit is here for sure but I don't believe he himself, as in a very real being has not been here to deceive for that short time. A time Christ has shortened.

 

[JulieB67]

You don't think this verse applied at the time it was written and ever since and instead think it only applies "to one generation before he returns"? Paul indicated no such thing.

No, I don't. Because if we continue to verse 13 he states-

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

It doesn't state every day, it specifically states being able to stand in "the evil day". This coincides with Christ's teachings about endurance until the end. Paul is telling us what we need to be able to endure and stand. IT will happen to one generation.

He can put us in prison and tempt us and try to do all kinds of things to us, but if we submit to God and resist him then he has to back off can't make us lose our faith. Being put in prison and being tested does not equate to Satan having power over us in the sense that he has authority over us rather than Christ having authority over us. Satan is "the god of this world", but not the god of us.

Of course a strong Christian who has the full gospel armor on will have no problem defeating the wiles of the devil, this is true but while he is in the pit he cannot deceive, use his wiles, etc, that is the entire point. It has nothing to do with him having authority over us, I'm not sure where you're getting that. It has to do with deceiving the nations. It's about deception. Something that both Christ and Paul give very strict warnings about.

You are stating he can put us in prison, tempt us, etc. But while he's in the pit, he cannot. That's totally contradicts not being able to deceive the nations.

Wiles in in the Greek is trickery. How will he trick the entire world? By disguising himself as an angel of light. I've said it before you don't don a disguise unless eyes are on you. Him and his angels will be here instead of Christ playing savior, destroying with peace and so on. Anyone that does not have that gospel armor on are in danger of falling away. Falling away we know is departing from the faith. Christ states if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. He states in your patience, possess your souls. They will be performing wonders in the sight of men and it's by those wonders that people will fall for him. You don't perform wonders in the sight of men if you're bound in a pit.

"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

The fact that we need the whole armor of God to be able to stand against the trickery of the devil proves that he can still deceive and will deceive until he is put in the pit. Again, it has nothing to do with believing he has authority or power over a Christian with the full gospel armor on (which includes the word of God)

This snare will come upon the entire world.

Snare in the Greek -a trap, a trick or stratagem,(temptation) -snare. Christ is talking about after the end of this earth age, so again, it would be impossible for Satan to be locked in the pit at this time.

Why are you trying to tell him what he believes instead of paying attention to what he actually believes.

I assumed he believed that Satan was not returning defacto/in reality before Christ. And if I'm mistaken on that I'm sorry.

 

[JulieB67]

. How can you say that the whole book is about things that would happen in the distant future when the book

I stated that John was told to write about the past, present and future of the Lord's Day. Past would be any time before then. Which would include long ago and right before. And if it's right before, it can still be future to us.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I've been on vacation but wanted to say many have missed mine. The subject was Satan, I believe he will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God (it specifically states sides to the north)-something that has never happened in history. And others don't. It's that simple. I have scriptures that I believe back that up. Others see it differently. Unless someone can absolutely prove that's not going to happen within scripture, I don't believe my timing is off.

Again, I like to believe I have an open mind and have dropped doctrines in the past I once believed. I have also studied the Amil position a bit. Of course I don't claim to know that position entirely but I've seen different Amils with different views so it's confusing at times.

Just as is the case with Premils, not all Amils believe everything the same. There are partial preterist, idealist, historicist and futurist Amils and some Amils like myself who don't identify completely with any of those labels and have a view that is kind of a mix of all of those.

If you really want to understand Amil, then try to learn the things that all Amils believe first and then go from there and then it should be easier to understand.

For example, all Amils believe that Jesus began to reign after His resurrection (some might say after His ascension, but that's a minor difference) and we all reference scriptures like Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Colossians 1:12-13, Revelatoin 1:5-6 and others) to back up that belief. And we believe Satan was bound at that time (Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, etc.).

All Amils believe that when Jesus returns He will destroy literally all unbelievers (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18).

All Amils believe that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same general time on the day Christ returns from heaven (John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15, Daniel 12:1-2).

All Amils believe that all people will be judged at the same time when Jesus returns with His angels (Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

But I also realize that's the case with many premils as well.

Yep.

I know that preterist believe all has been fulfilled.

Well, full preterists believe that, but they are not Amils, they are Postmils. Partial preterists don't believe that. Of course, even partial preterists differ in how much they believe is fulfilled and how much is yet to be fulfilled.

Eclipse believes that Christ could return any moment. Which is why I put him in the same boat as the pretribbers and I suppose I mistakenly put SG in there as well.

It's clear to me, and I'm pretty sure you agree, that Paul made it clear in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 that certain things have to occur first before Christ returns, such as a mass falling away from the faith. Jesus made that same thing clear also in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:10-13;23-26). Not sure how Eclipse misses that, but it's very clear to me and I'm sure to you as well. Unless he thinks those things all happened and are finished already? Not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion.

But again other than just a few verses here and there that might be questionable when it comes to Amil- when I take the bible as a whole, I just can't reconcile certain verses with it. Just as you have certain verses as well that base your belief.

Right. I, of course, believe the Bible aligns most closely with Amil. When you look at scripture that speaks of Christ reigning (Matthew 28:16-18, Acts 2:29-36, Ephesisans 1:19-23, Colossians 1:12-13, Revelation 1:5-6, etc.) , it is very clear to me that He has been reigning since His resurrection. So, I don't see any reason to see Revelation 20 any differently. In my view, the foundation of my doctrine is on clear scripture which I then use to help me understand more difficult and debatable scriptures. It's ironic that Amils get accused of spiritualizing everything to fit our doctrine when the truth of the matter is that the foundation of our view is on literal, clear, straightforward scripture.

Just to give you a couple examples of what I'm talking about....

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

There are two things to notice here. First, you can see that some of the disciples were worshiping Jesus here. Would they do that if they didn't believe He was their King? No. And then Jesus Himself said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". If that's not reigning, I don't know what is. So, I apply what is taught in passages like this to more difficult and debatable passages like Revelation 20.

Here is one more example:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus said a singular hour or time (a one time event, in other words) is coming in "which ALL that are in the graves" will be resurrected from the dead. So, He taught that there is one general resurrection event where all of the dead will be raised at that time. Not at the same exact moment, necessarily, but in the same "hour". So, I apply what is taught in clear passages like this to what is indicated in more difficult passages like Revelation 20 instead of the other way around.

And what Jesus said here contrasts with the Premil view that there will be at least two mass resurrection events in the future. I have tried many times to get Premils to give me a reasonable and honest interpretation of this passage that can be reconciled with Premil and I have yet to see anyone do that. Maybe you could be the first?

We know Revelation is not in complete chronological order but I believe 19 until the end are.

Why do you believe that?

There's no reason after Christ returns to therefore go back in time again.

I should have read a little further before asking that. So, no real reason really other than you somehow conclude that "There's no reason after Christ returns to therefore go back in time again.". Is this how we should interpret scripture? With reasoning like this? I don't believe so. I'm honestly very surprised that you would think so. When it comes to our shared post-trib belief and refuting pre-trib, I believe you make some very sound arguments. But, when it comes to Premil...sorry...not so much.

I realize many see the 1000 years as symbolic while others see it literally. But to me it's impossible not to connect these verses after Christ returns-

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

I don't believe this event has not happened so then I don't believe the 1000 years started. Again, unless someone can show within scripture the event with the beast and the mark and those worshipping the beast has happened I will believe what the scriptures state.

I believe what the scriptures state just as much as you do. Believing what the scriptures state does not necessitate that we conclude that those things haven't started to happen yet and are all yet to happen.

Now, this is a more complicated thing to prove because it involves a lot of symbolism. But, this really illustrates the difference in your approach and mine. It seems to me that the foundation of your Premil doctrine is not on straightforward scripture like Amil's is, but rather on some of the most difficult to interpret verses and passages in all of scripture. Can you acknowledge this? Clearly, the book of Revelation is not written in a clear, straightforward manner. That is obvious and not up for debate. Not that every word in the book is symbolic or anything. I'm not saying that. But, it undeniably contains a good deal of symbolism that is not always easy to discern. Which is why there are many different interpretations of the book.

It would take me a lot of time to explain in detail my understanding of the beast, what it means to worship the beast and what the mark of the beast is, and so on. I don't have the desire to take that much time to explain that right now.

So, what I will do instead is show that the beast already existed before John wrote the book of Revelation and then you can think about what that means.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Without going into great detail, I will just say that I believe the beast generally represents the world empire, kingdom and/or system that is in place at any given time in history. The heads of the beast represent world empires like the Babylonian, Media-Persian, Greek and Roman empires.

Notice that it says the beast "is not" and at some point in the future "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". That implies that at the time John was writing the book, the beast was bound in the bottomless pit. Since I believe that the dragon, symbolically representing Satan, is tied to the beast (they always work hand in hand, so to speak) then I believe this also implies that Satan was bound in the bottomless pit with the beast at that time. Satan does his work using the beast, so if the beast is bound or restrained, then so is Satan. I think this is sound reasoning.

Therefore, I believe the time when the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit coincides with the time when the dragon (Satan) is loosed and ascends out of the bottomless pit. Keeping in mind that the beast and the dragon are symbolic entities represent Satan and his world kingdom, we should not think that a description of a beast and a dragon ascending from a bottomless pit should be taken literally. The beast and the dragon being bound in a prison and bottomless pit is symbolic of the restraint on wickedness that has been in place since the gospel started being preached through the power of the Holy Spirit after Christ's resurrection many years ago.

We also see verses like this-

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

This is when he returns. He's going to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

But, what does that mean? It's symbolic language. Have you taken the time to study exactly what that means to rule with a rod of iron? We can see what that means in the prophecy that is based on here:

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Can you see here that ruling with a rod of iron does not match your understsanding of what that means as a Premil? This clearly indicates that ruling with a rod of iron involves Jesus destroying His enemies and compares it to breaking a vase into many pieces. Does that match your understanding of what it means for Jesus to rule with a rod of iron? I don't believe it does. Notice there that Him ruling with a rod of iron is associated directly with Him smiting (destroying) the nations and treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". That is very clearly a picture of destruction there, not of Jesus shepherding His enemies as Premil always tries to claim. Notice what it says just after that verse:

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This speaks of Jesus taking vengeance on His enemies, as Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 1:7-10 and, notice that John makes no exceptions here. Jesus will be destroying "all men, both free and bond, both small and great". That's the kind of thing you say when you're saying there are no exceptions. Literally all of His enemies will be destroyed when He comes and that is what is depicted in passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well.