Day of the Lord all happens together

[Spiritual Jew]

And we get a glimpse of the disciples ruling with him -

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ruling? I see a description of judging here, not ruling over a period of time. Look at Matthew 25:31-46. It's talking about the same event as that passage talks about. On judgment day all people will stand before Jesus to give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12) with believers inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world and unbelievers being cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). The disciples will seemingly have some role to play there as it relates to the twelve tribes of Israel. But, in no way, shape or form does that verse support Premil. Especially if you agree that it relates to Matthew 25:31-46.

Christ is sitting on the right hand of God at this moment when he returns he will sit in the throne of HIs glory. He will not be sitting on the right hand.

You seem to be attempting to downplay the current status of our current Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the current King of kings and Lord of lords. That is something I very much dislike about Premil. That it says He will sit on the throne of His glory to judge the world at His coming does not mean He doesn't currently sit on the throne of His glory now. It means that He will sit on it to judge at that point, which He has not done yet.

You should not base your doctrine on assumptions about what it means for Jesus to sit at the Father's right hand. Scripture tells us what that means. Please look at the following passage which describes His status after ascending to the right hand of the Father:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Please look at this objectively. What does it indicate? It clearly indicates that when Jesus was raised from the dead and when He ascended to the Father's "own right hand in the heavenly places", He was placed in a position "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named...in this world". Agree? And it says God the Father "hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church". How could Jesus not already be sitting on His throne of glory when He ascended to the right hand of the Father when at that point He had authority over all things and "every name that is named" and had all things put under his feet while be made the head over all things in the church? How could He ever have any more authority than what scripture describes Him as already having long ago when He ascended to the right hand of the Father?

We know that on that final Judgement Day it will be only one throne and God. So this a time period before the final judgement day when others are ruling and judging with him.

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away: and there was found no place for them."


Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Again, one throne, one God.

I'm not following your line of reasoning here. Not all scripture that speaks of judgment day has all the same details about it. Matthew 25:31-46 obviously has a lot more details about it than Matthew 19:28. And then Revelation 20:11-15 has other details about it. You are either forgetting or overlooking something here.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

It's not as if this verse will suddenly no longer be true at the GWT judgment. It has to be Jesus judging there because "the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son".

How can anyone think that Matthew 25:31-46 is a different judgment than Revelation 20:11-15 when this...

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Is the same as this:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever......15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Amils talk about Christ being the firstfruits and that's true.

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

This would be after the 1000 years because he hasn't even sat on his throne of glory with the disciples judging with them, etc. It states when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power.

I'm again not following your reasoning here. Where does Paul give any indication whatsoever there that there would be a long period of time between Christ's second coming and "the end" when He delivers up the kingdom to God the Father? Nowhere. You are inserting 1000 years where it doesn't belong. You are adding to the scripture, which you should never do.

Your reasoning is based on a false premise that Jesus sitting on His throne of glory to judge has anything to do with ruling for 1,000 years. It absolutely does not. Look at what happens to the sheep/believers and the goats/unbelievers when He comes to judge. The sheep inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom of God at that time. According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" and believers will all have immortal bodies at that point. Hence inheriting eternal life.

The goats/unbelievers, on the other hand, are cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" at that time, which I believe is an obvious reference to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). Where does this allow any room for 1,000 year millennial reign over mortals on the earth? It doesn't. At that point, all believers will have eternal life in immortal bodies and all unbelievers will be cast into the fire.

But when talking about the 2 resurrections in chapter 20 Christ isn't talking about himself. He's talking about the 2 resurrections that take place after his return.

Do you believe in using scripture to interpret scripture? I certainly do. The Greek words "protos" (first) and "anastasis" (resurrection) are only used together in one other verse in scripture.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first (protos) that should rise (anastasis) from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

So, I completely disagree with you on this. The first resurrection itself was Christ's resurrection and that is indicated in verses like 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5 as well. What it means to have part in the first resurrection is to have part in some way in Christ's resurrection.

Did you know what you and I have had part in His resurrection?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

He specifically states what is the first resurrection after his return -

It is your assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. I used to assume that, too. But, then I found that interpreting Revelation 20 that way did not line up with the rest of scripture.

Everything you said after this was based on that assumption, so I'm not going to take the time to comment on the rest of what you said. Keep in mind that the Greek word translated as "lived" when it says "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" in Revelation 20:4 is "zao" and has a different meaning then the word translated as "lived...again" (anazao) in verse 5. The word "zao" does not refer to the act of being resurrected from the dead, but anazao does. So, Revelation 20:4 is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ being alive and living with Christ in heaven during the symbolic thousand years since He began reigning after His resurrection.

The rest of the dead lived not again until after the final judgement Day. Those have to wait for their resurrection. The ones that made it before the 1000 years- Christ states the 2nd death has no power over them because they've already made it.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Please compare Revelation 20:6 to Revelation 1:5-6 and see the similarities. I have color coded Revelation 20:6 and also color coded Revelation 1:5-6 so the similarities can be clearly seen.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I trust that you can see the similarities. What John described in Revelation 1:5-6 was a current reality already in his day when he wrote that. And it lines up with what he wrote in Revelation 20:6, so, to me, that means Revelation 20:6 was already a current reality when he wrote the book as well. Notice he indicated that Jesus was currently "the prince of the kings of the earth" at that time. So, already reigning at that time. And notice that John called Jesus "the first begotten of the dead". An obvious similarity to "the first resurrection". And notice that he said Jesus "HATH MADE us kings and priests unto God and his Father". A present reality. Revelation 20 should be interpreted accordingly.

What is it that makes it so that the second death has no power over someone? Their bodily resurrection? No. Again, we can interpret Revelation 20:6 using Revelation 1:5-6. Having our sins washed away means the second death has no power over us because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and Christ paid the price for our sins for us. So, the second death has no power over us now and has no power over the souls of the dead in Christ who are with Jesus in heaven now. We don't need to wait to be raised from the dead in order for the second death to have no power over us.

We're not going to change each other's minds

I thought you said you have an open mind? I guess not.

but I was only responding to SG because he stated my timing was off and I responded that I don't believe that because Satan has not sat on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. I believe when he's literally cast out that will happen, that's when he, the devil will thrown some in prison so on.

As I have pointed out before, Satan being cast down results in him no longer being able to accuses us before God in heaven anymore (Rev 12:10). Well, he hasn't been able to do that for a long time now. As Paul said in Romans 8:33, "who can lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" while implying that the answer is "no one". That includes Satan because our sins are forgiven! What can anyone charge/accuse us of when our sins are forgiven and forgotten? Nothing.

I believe that he literally will be here with his angels. Again, others don't. I'm fine with that. I was just responding to again the belief that my timing is off. If Satan has not sat on the throne yet, I don't believe my timing is off as it has not happened yet. I believe his spirit is here for sure but I don't believe he himself, as in a very real being has not been here to deceive for that short time. A time Christ has shortened.

One thing to consider about that "short time" is that the phrase "short time" is translated from the Greek words "oligos" (short) and "kairos" (time). The word "oligos", translated as "short" in Revelation 12:12 and "few" in other verses when not used in relation to time, does not imply a literally short amount of time. It refers to a relatively short amount of time (in comparison to all time) or limited amount of time without giving any indication of it being a literal short amount of time, a medium amount of time or a long time.

The word is used in this verse:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (oligos) are chosen.

Was Jesus saying a literally small amount of people are chosen? No. We know that "a great multitude" of people are God's chosen (Revelation 7:9). A literally high number. But, compared to the number of people who are called, it is relatively few. So, that is how the "short time" that Satan had since being cast out of heaven should be understood as well. It's a relatively short or limited amount of time rather than being a literally short amount of time.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You don't know if a poster on the internet is brethren, don't use it loosely

Don't try to tell me what to do. Would you be offended if I called you my Christian brethren then since there is supposedly no way to know? I get discernment from the Holy Spirit, not you. If He tells me that someone is not a true believer, then I will act accordingly.

 

[Truth7t7]

Don't try to tell me what to do. Would you be offended if I called you my Christian brethren then since there is supposedly no way to know? I get discernment from the Holy Spirit, not you. If He tells me that someone is not a true believer, then I will act accordingly.

IMHO you can't really determine who is saved and sealed, for all anyone knows poster's could be responding to a AI Rambot's

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Keeping in mind that the beast and the dragon are symbolic entities represent Satan and his world kingdom, we should not think that a description of a beast and a dragon ascending from a bottomless pit should be taken literally. The beast and the dragon being bound in a prison and bottomless pit is symbolic of the restraint on wickedness that has been in place since the gospel started being preached through the power of the Holy Spirit after Christ's resurrection many years ago.

"False" scripture clearly identifies John's (The Beast) as a "future literal human man", the very same bad guy seen in Daniel's (Little Horn) and Paul's (Man Of Sin)

You have been shown this biblical truth several times to your denial

John's (The Beast) will be a literal human man with a literal body

(The Beast/A Man)

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

(The Beast Cast Alive/Living)

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

(The Horn/The Beast/His Body Destroyed)

Daniel 7:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you believe in using scripture to interpret scripture? I certainly do.

"I Strongly Disagree"

You believe and teach Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation) took place in 70AD when Rome destroyed Jerusalem

You disregard Matthew 24:29-30 (Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days) Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven that you believe is (Future) unfulfilled

Question: How can you have a 70AD great tribulation, and Jesus returning immediately after this tribulation in a (Future) event, where is the 2,000 year gap seen between Matthew 24:21 & Matthew 24:29-30?

You believe and teach John's (The Beast) is "symbolic", when scripture clearly teaches he will be a literal man with a body as post #204 above clearly teaches?

 

[JulieB67]

I thought you said you have an open mind? I guess not.

I like to think I do. But once again, no one can prove within scripture that Satan has already been here in reality and sat on the sides to the north proclaiming to be God. That is no babylon king. They had their own thrones and their own gods. We are talking about a morning star, an angel.


These verses completely mirror one another

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

I Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Which exactly parallels these verses -

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."


Further proof this is Satan -After this period where he will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God he will be taken to the pit.

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

We know angels are called men in the bible and this will be no different.

You seem to be attempting to downplay the current status of our current Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the current King of kings and Lord of lords. That is something I very much dislike about Premil.

I'm not but in the end, he gives it back to the Father. You see that when he comes back and imo wiping out his glorious time sitting on the throne of his glory.
I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

As I have pointed out before, Satan being cast down results in him no longer being able to accuses us before God in heaven anymore (Rev 12:10). Well, he hasn't been able to do that for a long time now. As Paul said in Romans 8:33, "who can lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" while implying that the answer is "no one". That includes Satan because our sins are forgiven! What can anyone

He can accuse all he wants but it's God that justifies so his accusations amount to nothing.

Romans 8:33 "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God That Justifieth;"

Please compare Revelation 20:6 to Revelation 1:5-6 and see the similarities. I have color coded Revelation 20:6 and also color coded Revelation 1:5-6 so the similarities can be clearly seen.

He has elect that he will bring with him and he has elect that will be here in that last generation. He literally tells us what the first resurrection is after he returns.

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

There's nothing to suggest he is talking about his first resurrection in verse 4. It specifically is talking about those that had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, etc. He's talking about the first resurrection after he returns.

The first resurrection itself was Christ's resurrection

Christ is not included in these verses. These are two resurrections after he returns-

Blessed are those that take part in the first of these two resurrections because the second death has no power over them. That tells us that these don't have to worry because they've taken part in the first resurrection that he just described in verse 4.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

In Revelation 19, it talks about the ones that had received the mark and worshipped the image had been deceived by the miracles brought forth. Those are the signs and wonders that are so powerful that if it were possible even the elect might be deceived. Deception is key That is Satan's MO and something he cannot do in the pit.
One must have the full armor on to be able to with stand that time if it happens in their generation. There's nothing symbolic about that. It's not Satan's spirit roaming around. It will be a reality. Real miracles, playing savior (disguised as an angel of light) proclaiming to be God and so on. Satan has always wanted to be God and he will sit on that throne proclaiming to be God. He will deceive by those miracles, etc and I'm sure many will be ready for the picking.

Also, note the thrones in verse 4 and they that sat upon them, unlike this

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away: and there was found no place for them."

These are not the same events.

Keeping in mind that the beast and the dragon are symbolic entities represent Satan and his world kingdom, we should not think that a description of a beast and a dragon ascending from a bottomless pit should be taken literally.

They are just other names for Satan who is a very real entity. The devil is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet "are" they are thrown into the fire after Christ returns. He's not thrown in until after the 1000 years.


Revelation 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 19:21 "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

So in chapter 20 we're supposed to go back in time at this point, all the way to Christ's death on the cross? I see no purpose but that's when you believe he was bound in the pit. Even though we had just read these words "'with which he deceived them...."

Revelation 20:1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

Revelation 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

I still believe these verses connect to one another and Satan and his are deceiving before Christ returns.

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone."

Again, it's all about deception. In the pit he cannot do this. And we see Christ returning and deception was at play by Satan and his before Christ returned. So no, he's not in the pit. And if he's not in the pit then the 1000 years again, has not started.

Authority over someone and deceiving someone are not the same thing.

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Like you said, we share some of the same beliefs about no rapture, etc but in the end, I can't get past the deception and the fact that I believe Satan has not had his time yet. When Christ returns we see that deception had taken place prior by those miracles to deceive them. So then I can't believe Satan is in the pit at this time. Again, authority is not the same thing as deceiving/deception.

Sorry if it seems I'm reiterating certain verses but again, until someone can prove within scripture that Satan has not done any deceiving before Christ returns than I can't believe he's in the pit and that the 1000 years are a symbolic in nature.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry if it seems I'm reiterating certain verses but again, until someone can prove within scripture that Satan has not done any deceiving before Christ returns than I can't believe he's in the pit and that the 1000 years are a symbolic in nature.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[JulieB67]

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

Again, no one has yet proven within scripture that Satan has already sat on the throne to the sides to the north proclaiming to be God -which is the deception. They will perform miracles in the sight of men and it's by those miracles/signs/wonders that he's able to deceive. That's never happened in history. It was prophesized long ago that he would sit on the throne proclaiming to be God. And it's only after that period that he will be taken to the pit. That's the entire point of being disguised as an angel of light. And this is why Paul states once must have that gospel armor on -to fight the wiles of the devil. If the devil was in the pit at this time that would not be the case. He would not be disguised himself as an angel of light, he would not be throwing Christians in prison and so on. Of course when he's released he will be up to his old tricks (wiles) again and will deceive the nations to gather them once more to battle.

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation)

Revelation 13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The dragon is Satan, we are told this specifically. If he were bound in the pit at this time, he would have no power to do this. That's my point.

I see that in Revelation 20 that he will be bound after Christ's return, yes. You don't believe that what's described in 20 follows 19 and I do. The verses connect to one another. So yes, I believe deception on his part was going on before Christ's return and that he's bound so he cannot deceive them anymore for a 1000 years. I see nothing about going back all the way to Christ's first resurrection and bounding Satan in the pit at that time. The scriptures instead follow what happens in 19, down to the very wording about the beast, the mark, image and so on. There's nothing about going back, it's moving forward. I realize not all of Revelation is in chronological order but I do believe after Christ's return it is and the scriptures don't suggest in chapter 20 anything otherwise.

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Not biblical. And it never states the 1000 years is non literal. And that wouldn't make sense regardless. It would mean that they would reign 1 day and that's not what the scripture states.

 

[Truth7t7]

Again, no one has yet proven within scripture that Satan has already sat on the throne to the sides to the north proclaiming to be God -which is the deception. They will perform miracles in the sight of men and it's by those miracles/signs/wonders that he's able to deceive. That's never happened in history.

Im not a preterist as the others are

I agree 100%, I believe Satan will actually indwell (The Beast) and they will sit in Jerusalem and proclaim to be God on earth

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You believe and teach John's (The Beast) is "symbolic", when scripture clearly teaches he will be a literal man with a body as post #204 above clearly teaches?

LOL! Is a beast with seven heads and ten horns a literal man or is it symbolic for something besides a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns? It's ludicrous for you to try to criticize me for seeing the beast as being a symbolic, but not literal beast when you also don't see it as a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns. LOL! Keep the laughs coming. Also, since the beast "was" before John wrote the book (Rev 17:8), then if he is a man, he is at least somewhere around 2,000 years old by now. The oldest person to ever live! Wow! LOL!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

IMHO you can't really determine who is saved and sealed, for all anyone knows poster's could be responding to a AI Rambot's

I sometimes wonder if you are an AI robot since you say the same exact things repeatedly. I will assume that you are.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Blessed are those that take part in the first of these two resurrections because the second death has no power over them. That tells us that these don't have to worry because they've taken part in the first resurrection that he just described in verse 4.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Would you agree with me that having part in the first resurrection is a requirement for the second death to not have power over someone? I believe that is what this verse indicates. If so, at what point can it be said that the second death has no power over a believer? Not until their bodily resurrection? No. The second death has no power over us (Christians) now, right? We have been forgiven for our sins and our sins have been covered by the blood of Christ, right? That means we don't have to pay the wages of sin, which is eternal death (in contrast to God's gift of eternal life - Romans 6:23) since He paid the price for us.

So, since the second death has no power over those who are saved and certainly has no power over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven, what does that tell you about what Revelation 20:6 is saying? What it tells me is that we must have already had part in the first resurrection since the second death has no power over us now. Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection itself is the first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

And we all have part in His resurrection spiritually:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Also, notice how the result of having part in the first resurrection is being a priest "of God and of Christ". John said that we are NOW priests of God and of Christ.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Notice here that Jesus Christ IS "the prince of the kings of the earth" and He "HATH MADE us kings and priests unto God and his Father". This is speaking of a current reality about Jesus and His people. With that in mind, why would we not want to use this information to help us understand Revelation 20:6? That verse speaks of things that are a current reality, so why think that it's talking about something that won't happen until some time in the future?

In Revelation 19, it talks about the ones that had received the mark and worshipped the image had been deceived by the miracles brought forth. Those are the signs and wonders that are so powerful that if it were possible even the elect might be deceived. Deception is key That is Satan's MO and something he cannot do in the pit.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

I think there's something interesting to notice about these 2 verses. It seems to me that the dragon and the beast work very closely together and are dependent on each other, based on what is written in Revelation 13:4. The dragon, symbolically representing Satan, gives the beast its power. Notice in Revelation 17:8 that the beast "was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". So, the beast "was" before John wrote the book. What is your understanding of that? And it must have been bound in the bottomless pit when John wrote the book since he said it would some time later "ascend out of the bottomless pit".

So, if Satan needs the beast to do his bidding, as Revelation 13:4 seems to indicate, then, to me, if the beast is in the bottomless pit, then so is Satan since Satan is dependent on the beast and vice versa. So, it seems to me that when the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit, so does Satan.

One must have the full armor on to be able to with stand that time if it happens in their generation. There's nothing symbolic about that.

That is true now as well. Unless you don't think Satan is active now like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour? Is that only a future thing in your mind? Scripture teaches that as a current reality so we need to put on the full armor of God daily "to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). Paul wrote about those things in the present tense, so I'm confused as to why you would talk about those things only in the future tense.

Satan's binding relates directly to how in OT times he was able to keep a vast majority of the world, especially the Gentile nations, in spiritual darkness (especially in Noah's day but for most of the rest of OT times as well). But, in NT times that all changed, as Paul explained here:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Once Christ came and shed His blood for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), that brought the hope of eternal life to the world that they didn't have previously. Christ's death was a fatal blow to Satan.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

So, to me as an amil, I believe Satan's binding relates directly to the fact that he once was able to keep the world, especially the Gentiles, in spiritual darkness and in captivity due to their fear of death (which was caused by them having no hope beyond this life - no hope of eternal life) . But, once Christ came and died for the sins of the whole world, Satan no longer had that power. Notice in Hebrews 2:14-15 that Christ's death took the power of death away from the devil, Satan.

Now, that didn't prevent Satan from still trying to deceive people and keep them from having a relationship with God, but unlike in OT times, he has had to contend with the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. He was bound from having the kind of power that he had in OT times due to the power of death being taken away from him. In NT times, he has has to contend with people having on the full armor of God that gives people power and authority over him.

It's not Satan's spirit roaming around. It will be a reality. Real miracles, playing savior (disguised as an angel of light) proclaiming to be God and so on. Satan has always wanted to be God and he will sit on that throne proclaiming to be God. He will deceive by those miracles, etc and I'm sure many will be ready for the picking.

I can't make any sense of what you're saying. Do you somehow not know that Satan has been doing those things already for almost 6,000 years?

The short time before Christ's return when he has more success (from his perspective) in deceiving the world is not because of anything different he is doing, but rather because the restraint he has had on him the past almost 2,000 years will be lifted for "a little season" (Revelation 20:3) if it hasn't already. Some Amils like myself think it's quite possible that his little season has already begun based on the increase in wickedness we're seeing in recent years with the acceptance of LGBTQ+ and other wickedness. Paul wrote about this restraint in 2 Thess 2:1-12. With the restraint lifted, it will result in a mass falling away from the faith (2 Thess 2:3, Matthew 24:10) and increase in deception and wickedness (2 Thess 2:6-11, Matt 24:11-12;23-26).

Also, note the thrones in verse 4 and they that sat upon them, unlike this

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away: and there was found no place for them."

These are not the same events.

I agree. This proves nothing as it relates to Amil vs. Premil. Amils don't claim that those 2 verses refer to the same event.

They are just other names for Satan who is a very real entity. The devil is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet "are" they are thrown into the fire after Christ returns. He's not thrown in until after the 1000 years.

That the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire before Satan is not proof that they are cast there 1,000 years before he is. That would be like saying Satan is cast into the lake of fire 1,000 years before those whose names are written in the book of life are cast there simply because he will already be there before they are. Even though he will only be there shortly before they are.

The only reason you think that Satan will be cast there 1,000 years after the beast and false prophet are is because of your assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. But, we all know that the book of Revelation is not always in chronological order, as evidenced by the most obvious example of Revelation 11 and 12. Obviously, Jesus's birth and ascension (Rev 12:5) did not follow the sound of the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15).

Revelation 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."
Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone."
Revelation 19:21 "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

So in chapter 20 we're supposed to go back in time at this point, all the way to Christ's death on the cross? I see no purpose but that's when you believe he was bound in the pit. Even though we had just read these words "'with which he deceived them...."

This is like asking after quoting the end of Revelation 11: "So, in chapter 12 we're supposed to go back in time at this point all the way to Christ's birth?" and then saying there's no purpose in that. Sorry, but I don't find this type of argument to be convincing at all.

Revelation 20:1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

Revelation 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

I still believe these verses connect to one another and Satan and his are deceiving before Christ returns.

I believe Satan and his deceiving are before Christ returns, too, which would mean Revelation 20:7-8 occurs before Christ returns. But, I doubt you intended to say that, so please clarify what you were intending to say here.

Again, it's all about deception. In the pit he cannot do this.

What is your proof for this? To me, the beast and the dragon being in the pit is symbolic for the restraint on Satan's power that was placed on him by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Being bound doesn't render Satan to be completely powerless, it weakened him and restrained him. Again, the power of death was taken away from Satan by the death of Christ (Hebrews 2:14-15). He has not had the same amount of power and authority in the world in NT times as he did in OT times, as scriptures like Ephesians 2:11-13, 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14-15 clearly show. He will be given a little season before Christ returns when those chains/restrains are lifted and that will result in the mass falling away from the faith and increase in wickedness that both Jesus and Paul said would happen just before Christ's return.

And we see Christ returning and deception was at play by Satan and his before Christ returned. So no, he's not in the pit. And if he's not in the pit then the 1000 years again, has not started.

I can't tell what you were intending to say here. Amils don't claim that Satan is in the pit just before Jesus returns. We believe Satan's little season occurs before Jesus returns and Satan is not bound during that time. He is bound for a symbolic 1,000 years before that little season.

Authority over someone and deceiving someone are not the same thing.

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Not sure what your point was here. I believe it's a mistake to think that Satan's binding is related to his general ability to deceive, as if it means he can't deceive at all because of being bound rather than seeing it as his power being weakened and restrained, as we see described in passages like Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8 and Ephesians 2:11-13.

Like you said, we share some of the same beliefs about no rapture, etc but in the end, I can't get past the deception and the fact that I believe Satan has not had his time yet.

This statement is confusing to me. We both believe that Satan gets a short time to wreak havoc in the world before Christ returns. You understand that, right? The difference in our views is that you think he gets another short time to wreak havoc in the world 1,000 years later and I don't. I find that to be completely inexplicable that he would be allowed 2 short times (little seasons) in the future to wreak unrestrained havoc in the world. Why wouldn't one time be enough? Why would God allow that to happen twice?

When Christ returns we see that deception had taken place prior by those miracles to deceive them. So then I can't believe Satan is in the pit at this time. Again, authority is not the same thing as deceiving/deception.

I have to wonder if you actually understand what I believe. I don't claim that Satan is in the pit when Christ returns. I believe Satan is loosed from the pit for a little season just before Christ returns.

Sorry if it seems I'm reiterating certain verses but again, until someone can prove within scripture that Satan has not done any deceiving before Christ returns than I can't believe he's in the pit and that the 1000 years are a symbolic in nature.

As long as you think that his binding has to do with his general ability to deceive rather than recognizing that it's talking about him being bound from having the same kind of power in NT times (until his little season) that he had in OT times, then you will never believe that. But, I ask you to consider what I've told you in this post objectively with an open mind since you say that you have an open mind about this.

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL! Is a beast with seven heads and ten horns a literal man or is it symbolic for something besides a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns? It's ludicrous for you to try to criticize me for seeing the beast as being a symbolic, but not literal beast when you also don't see it as a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns. LOL!

Scripture clearly identifies John's (The Beast) as a "future literal human man", the very same bad guy seen in Daniel's (Little Horn) and Paul's (Man Of Sin)

You have been shown this biblical truth several times to your denial

John's (The Beast) will be a literal human man with a literal body

(The Beast/A Man)

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

(The Beast Cast Alive/Living)

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

(The Horn/The Beast/His Body Destroyed)

Daniel 7:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Truth7t7]

What it tells me is that we must have already had part in the first resurrection since the second death has no power over us now.

Revelation 20:6KJV
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 shows nothing more than the "Two Future Resurrections" that will take place at the second coming (The End) the believer is blessed to take part in the future first resurrection to eternal life, the wicked unsaved will take part in the future resurrection to eternal damnation, the future second death in the lake of fire

1.) Resurrection Of Life
2.) Resurrection Of Damnation, Second Death

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Truth7t7]

He will be given a little season before Christ returns when those chains/restrains are lifted and that will result in the mass falling away from the faith and increase in wickedness that both Jesus and Paul said would happen just before Christ's return.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Truth7t7]

it's talking about him being bound from having the same kind of power in NT times (until his little season) that he had in OT times, then you will never believe that. But, I ask you to consider what I've told you in this post objectively with an open mind since you say that you have an open mind about this.

I ask you to consider the one specific reason why Satan is presently bound as seen in post #215 above, and it's not being bound having the same power in NT times, it's being bound from one specific purpose in (Deceiving The Nation's To Battle)

 

[Truth7t7]

I sometimes wonder if you are an AI robot since you say the same exact things repeatedly. I will assume that you are.

Things you don't like to hear, that exposes your reformed preterist eschatology in 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 to mention one, with this being a future event unfulfiĺed

 

[JulieB67]

With that in mind, why would we not want to use this information to help us understand Revelation 20:6?

Because once again, we are told us what is the first resurrection regarding verse 4. They aren't talking about Christ's first resurrection. It is not included in them. He is talking about the first resurrection when he returns. Those that have passed on in his name who he will bring back and those in the last generation will be priests of God, this is true. But people can still fall away and not take part in the first resurrection.

If so, at what point can it be said that the second death has no power over a believer? Not until their bodily resurrection? No. The second death has no power over us (Christians) now, right? "So, since the second death has no power over those who are saved

I don't believe in once saved always saved. The salvation is always there but the scriptures make it clear people can walk/fall away/depart from the faith. So taking part in that first resurrection after he returns is important. It means one has not caved or fallen away. Something that is possible. We know falling away does not have to do with unsaved. It has to do with those departing from the faith. This is where the Foolish Virgins come into play. They are waiting for the bridegroom, meaning Christians. No one is waiting for the bridgroom which is Christ unless they are Christians. So thinking one is saved at the present moment doesn't factor in if one should fall away. And it's Christians that are constantly being warned about deception and so on.
We also see that in these verses in the letters to Churches/Christians below, it's those that overcometh that are not in danger of the second death at the time. This is exactly what Christ and Paul teach about endurance until the end, standing until the end, etc. So yes the second death can still have power over anyone at this time.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Revelation 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Also, someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life which would mean the same thing-

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Notice in Revelation 17:8 that the beast "was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". So, the beast "was" before John wrote the book. What is your understanding of that?

Again, I think Revelation unfolds the past, present and future of the Lords Day/Day of the Lord. But when I see this verse-

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

I see Satan as that fallen star (morning star) and that it will be himself that opens the pit. And if he has fallen from Heaven and is opening the pit to release the locust army at the 5th trump than no, I don't believe he himself is in the pit at this time.

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

And again, this verse from Isaiah has not happened yet -



Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

It states what he has said in his heart and then it states "I will also sit....." That is future. And it specifically states where so that we know for a fact where this will happen.

Unless you don't think Satan is active now like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour? Is that only a future thing in your mind?

His spirit of course is here. But he hasn't been here in reality playing savior and sitting on the throne, no.

Paul wrote about those things in the present tense, so I'm confused as to why you would talk about those things only in the future tense.

He wrote one is to have that on to be able to stand, having done all to stand in "the evil day". Paul is also the one that states Satan is disguised as an angel of light. Can we see that disguise today in reality, no.

Satan's binding relates directly to how in OT times he was able to keep a vast majority of the world, especially the Gentile nations, in spiritual darkness (especially in Noah's day but for most of the rest of OT times as well). But, in NT times that all changed, as Paul explained here:

Some are still in spiritual darkness and it's because of his blinding them.

II Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believer not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto them,"

Again, this would be impossible if Satan were locked in the pit at this time. He is still the "god" of this world age. He still has the power to do so. It's because he has blinded the minds of them that believe not that the light of the gospel should not shine on them so he is still the god of this present age and Paul is still calling him so.

Satan will no longer be the god of this world/age when he is locked in the pit.

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places

Once Christ came and shed His blood for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), that brought the hope of eternal life to the world that they didn't have previously. Christ's death was a fatal blow to Satan.

Of course it is. He is a dead man walking.

But, once Christ came and died for the sins of the whole world, Satan no longer had that power. Notice in Hebrews 2:14-15 that Christ's death took the power of death away from the devil, Satan.

he defeated death, yes but but that doesn't mean Satan is still not deceiving and blinding people. Again, in the pit, he will not be able to do so.

I can't make any sense of what you're saying. Do you somehow not know that Satan has been doing those things already for almost 6,000 years?

I'm stating he will be here in reality. As a real being sitting on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. And no, he has not done that yet.

Some Amils like myself think it's quite possible that his little season has already begun based on the increase in wickedness

You obviously believe Satan is just a spirit, I don't. Again, I believe he's a very real entity that people will see in that role he will play, pretending to be God.

What is your proof for this?

The fact that the scriptures state he will not be able to deceive.

Being bound doesn't render Satan to be completely powerless,

Than you believe he still has power in the pit, I don't. It clearly states he will not be able to deceive the nations. It would make no sense if he is put in the pit and a seal put on him that he should still have some power. I don't believe that and the scriptures certainly don't state that. I've seen nothing that suggests while he's in the pit he can still deceive or have the power to do so. You believe he's in the pit so you have to believe he is not powerless because we can see that deception on his part is still out there.

I believe it's a mistake to think that Satan's binding is related to his general ability to deceive,

"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

You believe there's a gray area there, I don't.

This is like asking after quoting the end of Revelation 11: "So, in chapter 12 we're supposed to go back in time at this point all the way to Christ's birth?" and then saying there's no purpose in that. Sorry, but I don't find this type of argument to be convincing at all.

I'll just state the verses that follow in 20 to what happens in 19 match up perfectly. There's no hint or suggestion that we are going back in time to talk about Christ's resurrection and that's when Satan is bound. If the verses follow and match up than I believe we are talking about the events that just happened.

We believe Satan's little season occurs before Jesus returns

Again, 20 follows 19 in that the verses match up perfectly and written as if Christ had already returned.

Why would God allow that to happen twice?

I believe God wants to be very thorough. Satan took a third before. Will he once again, that is the question. We also need to ask ourselves why a certain generation is being tested in this manner to begin with?

But, I ask you to consider what I've told you in this post objectively with an open mind since you say that you have an open mind about this.

Believe me, I always am trying to be objective but I have certain verses that I can't reconcile. But yes, I will consider what you've written certainly.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't believe in once saved always saved.

I don't, either. My point is, while we are saved, does the second death have any power over us? It doesn't, right? Think about that in terms of what Revelation 20:6 says.

But, even putting that aside, once a saved person dies and they have kept their faith and endured to the end of their lives, does the second death have any power over him or her at that point? No, right? Please think about what that means in relation to Revelation 20:6.

The salvation is always there but the scriptures make it clear people can walk/fall away/depart from the faith.

Yep.

So taking part in that first resurrection after he returns is important.

I ask again, do we need to be raised bodily from the dead in order for the second death to not have power over us? No, right? If that was the case then how would those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ avoid the second death since they will not die and will not be resurrected?

Does the second death have power over the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now? No, right? Please think about that in relation to Revelation 20:6.

It means one has not caved or fallen away. Something that is possible. We know falling away does not have to do with unsaved. It has to do with those departing from the faith. This is where the Foolish Virgins come into play. They are waiting for the bridegroom, meaning Christians. No one is waiting for the bridgroom which is Christ unless they are Christians. So thinking one is saved at the present moment doesn't factor in if one should fall away. And it's Christians that are constantly being warned about deception and so on.
We also see that in these verses in the letters to Churches/Christians below, it's those that overcometh that are not in danger of the second death at the time. This is exactly what Christ and Paul teach about endurance until the end, standing until the end, etc. So yes the second death can still have power over anyone at this time.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Revelation 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Also, someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life which would mean the same thing-

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

I agree with all of that. I hope you can understand my point now. I believe someone can spiritually have part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection - Acts 26:23) which I believe happens when a person becomes saved and they can later lose their part in the first resurrection if they fall away. So, while someone is saved the second death has no power over them. Once a saved person dies, then certainly the second death has no power over them at that point and never will after that. I'm asking you to consider this in relation to what it says in Revelation 20:6.

 

[JulieB67]

No, right? If that was the case then how would those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ avoid the second death since they will not die and will not be resurrected?

I believe those that are alive and remain will be changed as well at the last trump. They will put on immortality. It states "all are changed" regardless.