David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Shrewd Manager]

Absolutely! But come into my parlor said the spider to the fly. I have been trying to get some UR-ist to answer that question for a long time. Someone finally bit. So after some unrighteous person is cast into the fire for a shorter or longer period only then "God's grace transforms [their] hearts and minds?" Why doesn't God's grace transform their hearts and minds in this life before the fire? Does God then perform a Vulcan mind wipe and remove the memory of the fire?

First time I've seen a spider get tangled in its own web! Why would the transformative power of the HS work any different there than it does here? It's a Damascus Rd job. The Vulcan mind wipe is only needed where eternal damnation exists, to stop those in heaven fretting about the fate of loved ones. Heaven can only exist if hell is destroyed.

 

[Fervent]

These questions on the free will of man and our choices are difficult and mysterious. Yet the bottom line for me is that understanding Universal Restoration appears to me to be like a three-legged stool consisting of the revelation of God in Christ, i.e., that God is love, the revelation of scripture, and the Holy Tradition of the church. Taking any one of these three as a sole source of truth is a recipe for theological disaster. In doing my investigation and putting all three of these sources together, I believe I have good reason for a strong hope in God’s ultimate restoration of all things, including all people.

First off, I see no compelling reason to accept the notion of a Holy Tradition. The church has erred far too many times in history, revised its positions too many times, and continues to revise its stances so that there is nothing identifiable "Holy Tradition" as what that is very well may change tomorrow if it be the whim of the clergy. That said, we can examine what the early writers had to say without lending them infallibility or any other special holiness but taking the nearness to the apostles as giving some authority. If we do so, we can see that the traditions that developed were more a matter of synthesizing Greek philosophy with Jewish theological positions rather than being a handing down of authoritative teaching in an unbroken line. So the only repository we have for pure apostolic authority is within the letters traceable directly to the apostles, i.e. their public teaching which is captured in the NT. There is no need to look to tradition except to gain clarity where an apostolic letters meaning is obscure, we have the letters and we have surrounding historical documents so we can recover the original contextual meaning prior to human speculation and interpretation. So ultimately the discussion must center on Scripture alone, which seems to overwhelmingly deny any sort of notion of universalism. In fact, if we trace the origin of universalism we can see that it originates with Platonic schools of philosophy and was incorporated by early Christian writers never being first drawn from Scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

First time I've seen a spider get tangled in its own web! Why would the transformative power of the HS work any different there than it does here? It's a Damascus Rd job. The Vulcan mind wipe is only needed where eternal damnation exists, to stop those in heaven fretting about the fate of loved ones. Heaven can only exist if hell is destroyed.

Now that is an incomprehensible switcheroo. Most UR-ists agree that there is some short punishment/"correction" in fire. Do those thus punished/"corrected" not feel any pain? Do they not feel anger, resentment etc. for being punished/"corrected" as people in this life respond? After they are punished/"corrected" do they or do they not retain any memory of the punishment/"correction?"

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Now that is an incomprehensible switcheroo. Most UR-ists agree that there is some short punishment/"correction" in fire. Do those thus punished/"corrected" not feel any pain? Do they not feel anger, resentment etc. for being punished/"corrected" as people in this life respond? After they are punished/"corrected" do they or do they not retain any memory of the punishment/"correction?"

The way it classically happens here is someone gets born again, repents on the spot (due to the new heart and mind) and then spends the rest of his life in a process of sanctification, overcoming the grave clothes of sin and fighting the good fight. Same rules apply in the afterlife, but it conceivably would require an age/ eon/ eternity of correction because there's a whole lifetime of dross to overcome.

 

[Der Alte]

The way it classically happens here is someone gets born again, repents on the spot (due to the new heart and mind) and then spends the rest of his life in a process of sanctification, overcoming the grave clothes of sin and fighting the good fight. Same rules apply in the afterlife, but it conceivably would require an age/ eon/ eternity of correction because there's a whole lifetime of dross to overcome.

How wonderful. That might be what happens in this life when a sinner repents of their own volition. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about some unrepentant sinner who was tossed into some fiery place for some period of time, when they are released do they "repent on the spot (due to the new heart and mind" and are filled with love etc". just like prisoners released in this life?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That might be what happens in this life when a sinner repents of the own volition.

No one truly repents of their own volition because they love their sin and are blind to the things of God, it requires saving grace. They are 'drawn/ dragged' to Christ.

I'm talking about some unrepentant sinner who was tossed into some fiery place for some period of time, when they are released do they "repent on the spot (due to the new heart and mind" and are filled with love etc". just like prisoners released in this life?

There might be 2 categories, for instance:
1. A horse thief who wants to, but can't, overcome his horse thieving ways ('who will deliver me').
2. A horse thief who doesn't want to change, loves the sin.

The freedom from Hades may not result in the ability to overcome the accrual of bad habits. The subsequent LOF treatment helps him overcome the residual power of sin, so that he might emerge as a new man worshipping God.

Take the story in John 5:1-14 of the invalid at the Pool of Bethesda, who after 38 years of suffering is healed instantly by Jesus, which empowers him to enter the temple, and then is warned to avoid sinning. This is a type of LoF.

 

[Fervent]

No one truly repents of their own volition because they love their sin and are blind to the things of God, it requires saving grace. They are 'drawn/ dragged' to Christ.

Sounds like Calvin coming through.

 

[Der Alte]

No one truly repents of their own volition because they love their sin and are blind to the things of God, it requires saving grace. They are 'drawn/ dragged' to Christ.

When? In this life or after some period of fiery "correction?"
And that ain't what Jesus said.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, [day of Judgement] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Vs. 23, where is that forcibly dragging unwilling sinners to Himself?
After the day of judgement and "depart from me, I never knew you." there are no more chances for salvation.

There might be 2 categories, for instance:
1. A horse thief who wants to, but can't, overcome his horse thieving ways ('who will deliver me').
2. A horse thief who doesn't want to change, loves the sin.

"Might be?" C'mon man!

The freedom from Hades may not result in the ability to overcome the accrual of bad habits. The subsequent LOF treatment helps him overcome the residual power of sin, so that he might emerge as a new man worshipping God.

"May not!" "might emerge" C'mon man!

Take the story in John 5:1-14 of the invalid at the Pool of Bethesda, who after 38 years of suffering is healed instantly by Jesus, which empowers him to enter the temple, and then is warned to avoid sinning. This is a type of LoF.

No matter how you try to spin it. It happened in this life not in the grave or hell

 

[Saint Steven]

The way it classically happens here is someone gets born again, repents on the spot (due to the new heart and mind) and then spends the rest of his life in a process of sanctification, overcoming the grave clothes of sin and fighting the good fight. Same rules apply in the afterlife, but it conceivably would require an age/ eon/ eternity of correction because there's a whole lifetime of dross to overcome.

Yes.
We can, of course, only speculate about these things.
I like to drag in a few things that seem indicated by scripture and then imagine how that might play out. I haven't created a comprehensive presentation with all the references. (though I probably should)

The Day will bring it to light. Every secret thought and deed out in the open. In front the great cloud of witnesses. A full accounting of a life. The testing of works and deeds and thoughts and the intent of the heart.

Starting with nations and leaders and working down to individuals. One at a time with all of "heaven" witness to the restoration. Weeping and gnashing of teeth while a person's whole life is laid out and revealed to every one. Answering for what was done, or not done. Revelations of what was happening behind the scenes. The ramifications of even careless acts on the lives of others. The heartbreak and loss it may have caused. Witnesses called to offer forgiveness.

The objective being love, redemption and restoration, rather than shame, condemnation and punishment.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Vs. 23, where is that forcibly dragging unwilling sinners to Himself?

Yes, the long way round.

Who are those folks in vs.22, der Alte? They're at least outwardly devoted believers who've done good works in Jesus' name. What is their offence, which is so great as to earn them eternal punishment (as you see it)?

"Might be?" C'mon man!

Lol, they're the 2 categories that spring to mind. Maybe you can think of other circumstances?

Jesus goes on saving ppl after death, because that's what he does, raises the dead, and God showed us in the resurrection that death is no obstacle. So the LoF is an intensification of Grace.

No matter how you try to spin it. It happened in this life not in the grave or hell

The pattern is the same. Pattern is prophecy, look at the Molten Sea outside Solomon's Temple and the Mikveh including Pool of Bethesda outside Nehemiah's Temple and surrounding Jerusalem generally.

You don't have a history of purifying baths outside temples and then get to the New Jerusalem, where God is making everything new, and suddenly your purifying bath turns into a bbq pit. That's a B-grade horror movie plot twist.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes.
We can, of course, only speculate about these things.
I like to drag in a few things that seem indicated by scripture and then imagine how that might play out. I haven't created a comprehensive presentation with all the references. (though I probably should)

The Day will bring it to light. Every secret thought and deed out in the open. In front the great cloud of witnesses. A full accounting of a life. The testing of works and deeds and thoughts and the intent of the heart.

Starting with nations and leaders and working down to individuals. One at a time with all of "heaven" witness to the restoration. Weeping and gnashing of teeth while a person's whole life is laid out and revealed to every one. Answering for what was done, or not done. Revelations of what was happening behind the scenes. The ramifications of even careless acts on the lives of others. The heartbreak and loss it may have caused. Witnesses called to offer forgiveness.

The objective being love, redemption and restoration, rather than shame, condemnation and punishment.

It might be public, or it might be metaphor that all the deeds, omissions and thoughts of one's life become manifest in the light of truth, the true impact of those things becomes clear. That's my testimony, anyway.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Fervent

First off, I see no compelling reason to accept the notion of a Holy Tradition. The church has erred far too many times in history, revised its positions too many times, and continues to revise its stances so that there is nothing identifiable "Holy Tradition" as what that is very well may change tomorrow if it be the whim of the clergy.

It was Holy Tradition which gave us the Trinity. When the heretic, Arias, was going about Africa preaching his error, the Church called a council. At Nicea, Arias showed himself to be the first one to practice "sola scriptura" as he defended himself from Scripture alone. The response of the council was to state that from the beginning (Holy Tradition) it had been taught that Jesus Christ was God Almighty incarnate.

For the first 500 years of the Church, the Holy Tradition of Apokatastasis was taught in four theological schools of the six that existed. It was believed not by a few, but by many, (a great mass of people, according to Augustine, who called them "the misericordia," or "tender-hearted.") Now if there were no schools that ever taught this, if it was just some idea that popped up on the theological radar with Origen, then you would be right to ignore this. And if in those 500 years there had been councils called to condemn it, you could certainly make a strong case against it. But the opposite is true, which should give you food for thought. When those closest to the Apostles and their teaching believe something, and the whole Church in council does not condemn it, then attention should be paid to what is being said.

That said, we can examine what the early writers had to say without lending them infallibility or any other special holiness but taking the nearness to the apostles as giving some authority. If we do so, we can see that the traditions that developed were more a matter of synthesizing Greek philosophy with Jewish theological positions rather than being a handing down of authoritative teaching in an unbroken line. So the only repository we have for pure apostolic authority is within the letters traceable directly to the apostles, i.e. their public teaching which is captured in the NT.

This is the standard "sola scriptura" position of all Protestants, and it is deeply flawed. The reason it is flawed is seen in the existence of hundreds of different doctrines within the various Protestant denominations, all of which contradict each other, yet all of which claim to be the correct understanding of the Scriptures. It is somewhat ludicrous to claim that 1500 years after the Apostles, people would have a good understanding of what they taught.

There is no need to look to tradition except to gain clarity where an apostolic letters meaning is obscure, we have the letters and we have surrounding historical documents so we can recover the original contextual meaning prior to human speculation and interpretation. So ultimately the discussion must center on Scripture alone, which seems to overwhelmingly deny any sort of notion of universalism.

Nonsense. There are, according to one writer I read, 76 verses which either directly state that God wills to save all, God will have mercy on all, or hint at this. The first thing you must understand is that the Scriptures have been misinterpreted by the Latin Church, which gave us the Western translations of the Bible. Despite what Der Alter states, Dr. Illaria Ramelli, a scholar of great intelligence and study, has stated quite clearly that the word "aionios" does not mean "eternal." But even I, as a stupid layman, was able to see that there is no way this is possible, since the root word "aion" means "age" and not "eternal" or "eternity." You don't create a derivative word from a root word and come up with a different understanding than the root word has.

In understanding words and their meanings, root words establish the meaning of their derivatives. The word colorful is an adjective that has to do with color. It has nothing to do with being bitter. Let’s take the Greek root word “aion,” which means “age,” and replace it with the word “eternal” to see how that works.

Matthew 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this eternal (aion) and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this eternal, (aion) but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

First Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this eternal (aion) knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil eternal, (aion) according to the will of God and our Father

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the eternal; (aion) and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this eternal. (aion)

I hope by now you can see how ridiculous a wrong translation of aion sounds in the examples above. In every case, if you put the word “age” in those verses, they now make sense. Jesus and Paul speak of the end of the age. Age is the one and only meaning of aion, therefore, we must give strong weight to it carrying the same meaning in its derivatives such as aionios.

In fact, if we trace the origin of universalism we can see that it originates with Platonic schools of philosophy and was incorporated by early Christian writers never being first drawn from Scripture.

Then God lied. You can't get around this. Scripture states that it is His will that all be saved. Is there a circumstance in which His will is thwarted by His creatures or circumstances external to Him.

1 Timothy 2:4 King James Version 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You insist upon "sola scriptura," but when the words of scripture cut across your pet beliefs, you suddenly find clever ways of denying what is right there.

Romans 11:32, ESV: "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." Romans 11:32, KJV: "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, NASB: "For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all."

Mercy ON ALL!!!

I rest my case.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, the long way round.
Who are those folks in vs.22, der Alte? They're at least outwardly devoted believers who've done good works in Jesus' name. What is their offence, which is so great as to earn them eternal punishment (as you see it)?

You will have to ask Jesus that question Jesus is the one who, said on judgement day, "I will say unto them depart from me you workers of iniquity I NEVER knew you."

Jesus goes on saving ppl after death, because that's what he does, raises the dead, and God showed us in the resurrection that death is no obstacle. So the LoF is an intensification of Grace.

You are all over the place grabbing bits and pieces trying to prop up your false narrative.

The pattern is the same. Pattern is prophecy, look at the Molten Sea outside Solomon's Temple and the Mikveh including Pool of Bethesda outside Nehemiah's Temple and surrounding Jerusalem generally.

Still bits and pieces. The molten sea was only for the priests prior to their entering on their tour service. I couldn't find a pool of Bethesda.

You don't have a history of purifying baths outside temples and then get to the New Jerusalem, where God is making everything new, and suddenly your purifying bath turns into a bbq pit. That's a B-grade horror movie plot twist.

Meaningless out of context, irrelevant, bits and pieces.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * For the first 500 years of the Church, the Holy Tradition of Apokatastasis was taught in four theological schools of the six that existed. It was believed not by a few, but by many, (a great mass of people, according to Augustine, who called them "the misericordia," or "tender-hearted.") Now if there were no schools that ever taught this, if it was just some idea that popped up on the theological radar with Origen, then you would be right to ignore this. And if in those 500 years there had been councils called to condemn it, you could certainly make a strong case against it. But the opposite is true, which should give you food for thought. When those closest to the Apostles and their teaching believe something, and the whole Church in council does not condemn it, then attention should be paid to what is being said. * * *

You have no case to rest. Please provide some credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence for this claim. The writings of the early church fathers are available, free, online on more than one website. Do some real research and tell us how many of them taught Apokatastasis?

 

[JulieB67]

Who are those folks in vs.22, der Alte? They're at least outwardly devoted believers who've done good works in Jesus' name.

Not answering for Der Alte, but many Christians who proclaim to know Christ at this point will fall away to apostasy and the fake christ/Satan when he arrives (Foolish Virgins fit this bill as well, waiting for the bridegroom so they are Christians..) So it's a good possiblity these people thought they were doing works in his name and did at one point but then started to do works for the fake christ thinking he was in fact Christ (Satan will be disguised as an angel of Light) That's why Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect because many will think he's already here, (peace and safety) then bam 7th trump and the true Christ returns. Many will pray for mountains to fall on them in their shame.


I wouldn't want to answer to Christ at this point and I think that's why he "states depart from me, I never knew you". It's that serious. He specifically states, if they "say Christ is here or there, don't believe it". But many not prepared, especially with the Word, as Paul states we need at that time to stand in that "evil" day will fall away. And sadly Satan knows the Word better than many Christians. It will be in some way, easy pickings for him.

Also, this could be people doing something contrary to the Word but in his name etc. Either way, both are dangerous paths as Christ states he never knew them.

Getting way OT, sorry OP....

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Despite what Der Alter states, Dr. Illaria Ramelli, a scholar of great intelligence and study, has stated quite clearly that the word "aionios" does not mean "eternal." But even I, as a stupid layman, was able to see that there is no way this is possible, since the root word "aion" means "age" and not "eternal" or "eternity." You don't create a derivative word from a root word and come up with a different understanding than the root word has.

You made a BIG error here. Just because someone with a PhD said it that doesn't make it true. And derivative words often differ in meaning from the head word. Look it up that is a lexical fallacy known as the "etymological fallacy." You should really look this up it might prevent foot in mouth disease in the future.

In understanding words and their meanings, root words establish the meaning of their derivatives. The word colorful is an adjective that has to do with color. It has nothing to do with being bitter. Let’s take the Greek root word “aion,” which means “age,” and replace it with the word “eternal” to see how that works.

Wrong! "Aion" is a noun. "Eternal" is an adjective,

Matthew 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this eternal (aion) and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

The Bible is full of figures of speech. One 19th century scholar E.W. Bullinger identified more than 200+ "Figures of speech used in the Bible." His book with that title is available free online.
Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Peter was not literally a stone when Jesus called him, Petros/stone. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. What do you think that means for your theory?

I hope by now you can see how ridiculous a wrong translation of aion sounds in the examples above. In every case, if you put the word “age” in those verses, they now make sense. Jesus and Paul speak of the end of the age. Age is the one and only meaning of aion, therefore, we must give strong weight to it carrying the same meaning in its derivatives such as aionios.

Wrong! Here is a link to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. [EOB] Greek has been the languages of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for as long as that church existed about 2 centuries +/- who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the meaning of the Greek in the NT. They consistently translate "aionios" as "eternal." That is that.
EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1 Cleenewerck, 1. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
Link to EOB.
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf
How did Jesus define "aionios?

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * Who are those folks in vs.22, der Alte? They're at least outwardly devoted believers who've done good works in Jesus' name. What is their offence, which is so great as to earn them eternal punishment (as you see it)? * * *

Who are those people in vs. 22

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Maybe somebody like Jim Baker in Cincinnatti a TV evangelist who went to prison for fraud. And about the same time Jimmy Swaggart an evangelist in Lousiana who was spending time with ladies of the evening in New Orleans.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Not answering for Der Alte, but many Christians who proclaim to know Christ at this point will fall away to apostasy and the fake christ/Satan when he arrives (Foolish Virgins fit this bill as well, waiting for the bridegroom so they are Christians..) So it's a good possiblity these people thought they were doing works in his name and did at one point but then started to do works for the fake christ thinking he was in fact Christ (Satan will be disguised as an angel of Light) That's why Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect because many will think he's already here, (peace and safety) then bam 7th trump and the true Christ returns. Many will pray for mountains to fall on them in their shame.


I wouldn't want to answer to Christ at this point and I think that's why he "states depart from me, I never knew you". It's that serious. He specifically states, if they "say Christ is here or there, don't believe it". But many not prepared, especially with the Word, as Paul states we need at that time to stand in that "evil" day will fall away. And sadly Satan knows the Word better than many Christians. It will be in some way, easy pickings for him.

Also, this could be people doing something contrary to the Word but in his name etc. Either way, both are dangerous paths as Christ states he never knew them.

Getting way OT, sorry OP....

So could be believers who've been deceived by the devil, you suggest. Eternal damnation is a pretty harsh penalty, and the grounds are vague enough to ruffle the feathers of one's assurance. are they not?

If I truly believed in ECT then I'd have sleepless nights over this. The offence is so ill-defined as to resemble the grounds for 'disappearance' of dissidents in a communist hellhole.

May I ask, have you ever condemned a brother or sister in your heart with a 'thou fool'? Because that would be enough. Do you suffer from any of the 22 categories of sins that Paul identifies? Because that would be enough. Have you ever neglected a beggar? Because that would be enough.

You see, it's an untenable proposition, to take these apparent 'hell texts' from Christ and build a smash and bash doctrine from them. EVERYBODY WOULD BE IRRETRIEVABLY DAMNED (or annihilated, if you prefer).

God of the Living™
*may result in genocide

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Who are those people in vs. 22

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Maybe somebody like Jim Baker in Cincinnatti a TV evangelist who went to prison for fraud. And about the same time Jimmy Swaggart an evangelist in Lousiana who was spending time with ladies of the evening in New Orleans.

See my post above #698. If Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart are eternally unforgiveable for their sins, then Jesus fails and we're all doomed.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You will have to ask Jesus that question Jesus is the one who, said on judgement day, "I will say unto them depart from me you workers of iniquity I NEVER knew you."

I might ask him, 'But Lord, didn't you and I both learn at the feet of der Alte and his superior academic skills?'

You are all over the place grabbing bits and pieces trying to prop up your false narrative.

Nope, that's Jesus' core business - salvation by raising the dead, you can take the Son out of heaven but you can't take heaven out of the Son.

Still bits and pieces. The molten sea was only for the priests prior to their entering on their tour service. I couldn't find a pool of Bethesda.

Pool of Bethesda is right by the Temple. You enter through the Sheep Gate.

Bethesda | "Let's pray for healing by the Pool of Bethesda

The mikvaot are highly relevant, because they were crazy about them.
On the Mikveh Trail, follow the rugged path of Jerusalem’s ancient pilgrims