• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

David Bentley Hart a universalist

Isaac32

Newbie
May 5, 2015
180
82
✟24,067.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
while true they were innocent, they did know that God told them not to touch it.
This is my point. There is a difference between being told you shouldn't do something and knowing why you shouldn't do it. As children we were all told by our parents that we shouldn't do certain things, yet not understanding why we shouldn't do thing x we did it anyways, only to find out that our parents gave us good counsel. For example, my mother told my young brother not to touch the coils on the stove because they were hot. He did not understand the outcome touching the stove would have until he found out for himself. He never touched the stove again after that. How many of us are thinking about touching the stove, as it were, and will turn away when it burns us? Will our Father, like our parents, be there to comfort us with open arms, or will He say "too late" and leave us to be forever scorched by the fire?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,256
20,907
Earth
✟1,637,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
that's the problem. God does not say too late to us. it is never too late from His POV. we say we never want Him and that is IF we end up in hell. my point was that if you look at human history, even when God is active, humans have rebelled. when the last judgment comes, those who choose hell will do so willingly and knowingly. it's not like they will go into hell, realize how bad it is, ask God to let them out, and He will say no. they will eternally choose to reject Him. exactly what this means, if it even happens at all, is known to Him and will play out in due time.

Godwilling, hell will be completely empty.
 
Upvote 0

Isaac32

Newbie
May 5, 2015
180
82
✟24,067.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
that's the problem. God does not say too late to us. it is never too late from His POV. we say we never want Him and that is IF we end up in hell. my point was that if you look at human history, even when God is active, humans have rebelled. when the last judgment comes, those who choose hell will do so willingly and knowingly. it's not like they will go into hell, realize how bad it is, ask God to let them out, and He will say no. they will eternally choose to reject Him. exactly what this means, if it even happens at all, is known to Him and will play out in due time.

Godwilling, hell will be completely empty.
In my opinion, then, that would mean hell must seem to some a better alternative, but then that brings up the question of ignorance again.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,256
20,907
Earth
✟1,637,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In my opinion, then, that would mean hell must seem to some a better alternative, but then that brings up the question of ignorance again.

for anyone who rejects God's love it would be. if His love is torment, how much more torment if the sinner is surrounded by saints and angels who love him with God's love as well?
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟187,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
There is a difference between being told you shouldn't do something and knowing why you shouldn't do it. As children we were all told by our parents that we shouldn't do certain things, yet not understanding why we shouldn't do thing x we did it anyways, only to find out that our parents gave us good counsel. For example, my mother told my young brother not to touch the coils on the stove because they were hot. He did not understand the outcome touching the stove would have until he found out for himself. He never touched the stove again after that. How many of us are thinking about touching the stove, as it were, and will turn away when it burns us? Will our Father, like our parents, be there to comfort us with open arms, or will He say "too late" and leave us to be forever scorched by the fire?

I've always been of the thought that Eve actually wanted to honor God but (as per being deceived) felt that it was the case that God was perhaps holding things back to test her and Adam - like a parent saying "Don't do this" but then leaving the impression (as far as the kid is told) that the parent is giving a command with a different motive ....like others saying "Don't worry about cleaning your room" but saying so hoping the child will do so/try to see if they can be pleasing. Being like God was not a bad thing and trying to reflect him was a big deal, but they did so the wrong way...
 
Upvote 0

Isaac32

Newbie
May 5, 2015
180
82
✟24,067.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Here is a follow-up from a presentation David Bentley Hart recently gave at Notre Dame:

Who are we other than all the others who have made us who we are and to whom we belong as much as they to us. We are those others. To say that the sufferings of the damned will either be clouded from the eyes of the blessed, or worse, increase the pitiless bliss of heaven is also to say that no persons can possibly saved. For if the memories of others are removed or lost, or one’s knowledge of their misery converted into indifference or, God forbid, into greater beatitude, what then remains of one in one’s last bliss? Some other being altogether, surely a spiritual anonymity, a vapid spark of pure intellection, the residue of a soul reduced to no one, but not a person, not the person who was.

But it’s not the logic of the claims that bother me; it is their moral hideousness… Currently, the most popular way of defending the notion of an eternal torment is an appeal to creaturely freedom and to God’s respect for its dignity, but there could scarcely be a poorer argument, whether it’s made crudely… by William Lane Craig or elegantly by Eleonore Stump, it is going to fail. It wouldn’t if we could construct a metaphysics or phenomenology of the will’s liberty that was purely voluntarist, purely spontaneous, though even then we would have to explain how an absolutely libertarian act, obedient to no rationale whatsoever would be distinguishable from sheer chance or mindless organic or mechanical impulse, and so any more free than an earthquake or embolism. But on any cogent account, free will is a power inherently purposive, teleological, primordially oriented towards the good and shaped by that transcendental appetite to the degree that a soul can recognize the good for what it is. No one can freely will the evil as evil. One can take the evil for the good. but that doesn’t alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it and so never having been free to choose it. It makes no more sense to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves out of his love for them, or his respect for their freedom, than to say that a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of a tender regard for her moral autonomy.

And the argument becomes quite insufferable when one considers the personal conditions – ignorance, mortality, defectibility of intellect and will – under which each soul enters the world and the circumstances, the suffering of all creatures, even the most innocent and delightful among them, with which that world confronts the soul.


I must admit that it is this argument for universal reconciliation, not the Bible, not the Church Fathers, I find most compelling.
 
Upvote 0

Isaac32

Newbie
May 5, 2015
180
82
✟24,067.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Godwilling he is correct. the saints, who are far more illumined than DBH, are a far more trustworthy source and paint a different picture.
Not all of the saints, and even among those who did believe some would be eternally damned there was disagreement about how exactly this would be realized. While it is true that saints who advocated or hoped for universal reconciliation are the minority, there have been a fair number whose thoughts resonate with Hart's. It is also important to remember that saints are not infallible, even when they are in the majority. If such were the case we would have to deny much of what modern science and medicine have demonstrated. Saints are there, first and foremost, to show us how to be holy. One can be very holy and also wrong about certain matters.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kristos
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,256
20,907
Earth
✟1,637,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
While it is true that saints who advocated or hoped for universal reconciliation are the minority, there have been a fair number whose thoughts resonate with Hart's.

an extreme minority

It is also important to remember that saints are not infallible, even when they are in the majority. If such were the case we would have to deny much of what modern science and medicine have demonstrated. Saints are there, first and foremost, to show us how to be holy. One can be very holy and also wrong about certain matters.

I would agree, but this is something that has been pretty constant (minus certain specific details) throughout all 2000 years of Christianity. the consensus does not support DBH's position.
 
Upvote 0

Isaac32

Newbie
May 5, 2015
180
82
✟24,067.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
an extreme minority
Not necessarily, especially when one questions whether the ECFs conceptualized "aion" and "aionios" the same way that we do. And minority or not, the reality that some of the Church's most revered and celebrated saints were not condemned for their views on this matter should be enough to make us pause and think about these issues seriously, even if we don't accept their perspectives. Luckily, many of the best minds in contemporary Orthodoxy are doing just that.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,256
20,907
Earth
✟1,637,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Not necessarily, especially when one questions whether the ECFs conceptualized "aion" and "aionios" the same way that we do. And minority or not, the reality that some of the Church's most revered and celebrated saints were not condemned for their views on this matter should be enough to make us pause and think about these issues seriously, even if we don't accept their perspectives.

well, I have read more than my fair share of echatology in the Fathers, and those who say hell is eternal far outnumber those who believe in universal salvation. and the one that most view, St Gregory of Nyssa, as defending that idea I have yet to read anything in him that actually supports universal salvation (granted I have not read THAT much from him). but I can say that both my dogmatics and patristics professors, both of whom have doctorates and are fluent in Greek, reject that it is in Nyssa.

Luckily, many of the best minds in contemporary Orthodoxy are doing just that.

DBH is not someone I would consider one of Orthodoxy's great minds. not saying this as a knock to him, but he is not one of the greats.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Isaac32

Newbie
May 5, 2015
180
82
✟24,067.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
well, I have read more than my fair share of echatology in the Fathers, and those who say hell is eternal far outnumber those who believe in universal salvation.
How do you know that what they intended fits your interpretation?

but I can say that both my dogmatics and patristics professors, both of whom have doctorates and are fluent in Greek, reject that it is in Nyssa.
That doesn't really tell us anything. Lots of people with doctorates and fluency in Greek disagree about all sorts of things. Hart has a doctorate and is fluent in Greek AND Hebrew. That alone doesn't mean he is right, though.

DBH is not someone I would consider one of Orthodoxy's great minds. not saying this as a knock to him, but he is not one of the greats.
Given your perspectives, that doesn't surprise me. That said, I didn't actually have him in mind when I said that. I was thinking of Fr. John Behr, Met. Kallistos, and Fr. Andrew Louth.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,256
20,907
Earth
✟1,637,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
How do you know that what they intended fits your interpretation?

it's not my interpretation. when hell gets presented as an eternal state for those who end up there over and over again, it becomes pretty clear. St John of Damascus is clear that hell is eternal for those who end up there, as are many modern elders and saints.

That doesn't really tell us anything. Lots of people with doctorates and fluency in Greek disagree about all sorts of things. Hart has a doctorate and is fluent in Greek AND Hebrew. That alone doesn't mean he is right, though.

and one of those guys is the spiritual son of Elder Sophrony, who is one of the theological juggernauts of the 20th century.

Given your perspectives, that doesn't surprise me. That said, I didn't actually have him in mind when I said that. I was thinking of Fr. John Behr, Met. Kallistos, and Fr. Andrew Louth.

as intelligent and well educated as those guys are, I wouldn't rank them up there either. the true theologian is the one who prays, so I look to our hesychasts and saints for these answers. and don't get me wrong, I love reading Met Kallistos, and have attended many talks with Fr John Behr where he blew my mind.
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,686
3,100
Pennsylvania, USA
✟919,989.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The thing there is the opportunity for anyone (regardless of their belief system, according to their honesty, & by their virtues lived in the way of the Lord) to have salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is also the opportunity to choose evil which is why the Lord warns us in Luke 12:5 & sums up judgment in John 5:22-30. The love of the Trinity through the Son is laid out in John 3:16-21 with serious warning of condemnation; a careful reading shows any truly virtuous person will be acknowledged by God. We cannot assume any sort of universalism the sovereignty of God is summed by St. Paul in Romans 9:14-18.

Surely a doctrine of a virtually imminent hell or else doctrine has been often perpetuated by all Christian groups at times for too long. On the other hand, we cannot rationalize away consequences of something God warns us of.
 
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟38,161.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Matt, it sounds like you understand the hesychasts to be getting a sort of divine data or report from God which they then convey to us. This doesn't seem right. Isn't it that they have a pre-conceptual contact with God and his truth conditioned by the life of the Church and then try to find words to express it?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,256
20,907
Earth
✟1,637,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Matt, it sounds like you understand the hesychasts to be getting a sort of divine data or report from God which they then convey to us. This doesn't seem right. Isn't it that they have a pre-conceptual contact with God and his truth conditioned by the life of the Church and then try to find words to express it?

I would agree with what you said. I know they don't get their info beamed into them. what I prolly could have said better is that the hesychasts are the ones that spend time in prayer and communion with God, so they know Him better than most of the rest of us. this is just like anyone. I know my wife better than anyone on here because I spend time in communion with her. I really know her not because she feeds me knowledge, but because we are married. tis the same with the hesychasts and elders.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟187,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
don't get me wrong, I love reading Met Kallistos, and have attended many talks with Fr John Behr where he blew my mind.
Which specific talks were you able to check out? Would love to investigate further if I am able...
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,256
20,907
Earth
✟1,637,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Which specific talks were you able to check out? Would love to investigate further if I am able...

none that were recorded. he spoke at an OCF college conference I went to, some retreats I have been to, and when I went to St Vlad's to visit
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟187,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I was wondering if that was a jab at Fr. McGuckin whose Sophia Institute's name is inspired by the Divine Wisdom. (see sophiainstitutenyc.org)

I was wondering if that was a jab at Fr. McGuckin whose Sophia Institute's name is inspired by the Divine Wisdom. (see sophiainstitutenyc.org)
Wait, hold up - Fr. McGuckin was being hated on as well?
 
Upvote 0