David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Lazarus Short]

Lazarus: "Do you really mean "never" when God clearly says He will return Israel to its former state? Do you make a habit of quoting your God and contradicting Him?? Oi."


God has not returned Israel to its former state, that is why Jesus testifies these things to Israel:


Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

I don't see in your quoted Scripture where God says "never."

 

[prophecy_uk]

Shall never be forgotten, their everlasting confusion..

Jeremiah 20:11 But the Lord is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten

 

[Der Alte]

Shall never be forgotten, their everlasting confusion..
Jeremiah 20:11 But the Lord is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten

Some folks argue that "olam" never means "eternal/everlasting." But this verse proves otherwise. Jeremiah has paralleled "olam" with "never forgotten." By definition "olam" means "everlasting." How do we then explain when olam refers to something that is not or cannot be eternal? Words are frequently used figuratively in the Bible. See e.g. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus called him, Petros/stone. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.

 

[SkyWriting]

For a good number of Christians, hell isn’t just a tragic shadow cast across one of an otherwise ravishing vista’s remoter corners; rather, it’s one of the landscape’s most conspicuous and delectable details.

I know whereof I speak. I’ve published many books, often willfully provocative, and have vexed my share of critics. But only recently, in releasing a book challenging the historical validity, biblical origins, philosophical cogency and moral sanity of the standard Christian teaching on the matter of eternal damnation, have I ever inspired reactions so truculent, uninhibited and (frankly) demented.

Opinion | Why Do People Believe in Hell? (Published 2020)

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[Der Alte]

Keep in mind that Jesus was speaking of the city dump, not the Hell of Dante, Milton and Mary K Baxter. He was simply telling His listeners that it was better to be born (enter life) blind or missing a limb than to live such a life that you ended up executed for some crime and be denied a decent burial, to have your dead body tossed into the dump instead. None of the four words rendered as "hell" in the KJV mean anything like the common idea of Hell, and two of those words come to us from pagan Greek mythology: hades and tartarus.

Nonsense! You are repeating false internet gossip and rumor.
There was NEVER a trash dump in Gehenna. If I can find the truth you should be able to.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage​

 

[Der Alte]

How about God on hell..
Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Sounds like a fate worse than death to me.

 

[Der Alte]

Do you really mean "never" when God clearly says He will return Israel to its former state? Do you make a habit of quoting your God and contradicting Him?? Oi.

Those that are living at His coming.

 

[Fervent]

For me, the scriptures are more ambiguous on this subject than has traditionally been claimed. However, there are historical exceptions, particularly among early Greek speaking Christians.

What is alarming is that some Christians seem to take delight in the future prospect that some will endure unending torment. One would expect that any mention of hell would be coupled with great sadness and a constant prayer that all would be saved. I'm sure some meet that condition, but surprisingly some don't. At any rate, may God's wish that all be saved be fulfilled.

For example, Gregory of Nyssa wrote:
some portion of the blessedness of the virtuous will consist in this; in contemplating side by side with their own felicity the perdition of the reprobate. He says, “The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; he shall wash his hands in the blood of the ungodly”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Some folks argue that "olam" never means "eternal/everlasting." But this verse proves otherwise. Jeremiah has paralleled "olam" with "never forgotten." By definition "olam" means "everlasting." How do we then explain when olam refers to something that is not or cannot be eternal? Words are frequently used figuratively in the Bible. See e.g. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus called him, Petros/stone. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.

I don’t see that this verse shows that “olam” doesn’t mean necessarily eternal since eternally remembered (never forgotten) is still eternal.

The Hebrews used many metaphors and it was understood in the culture which seems to be lost in ours that uses comparatively fewer metaphors. Using a metaphor doesn’t mean the item, person, or matter isn’t real. The question is then if the references to hell (and Jesus speaks of hell more often than all others put together) are only a metaphor, what is then being spoken of? The reference to God being a rock is a reference to His character being solid. The reference to Jesus being a door speaks of what a surrender to Him opens to a person who so chooses. To those who say “hell” is merely a metaphor, a metaphor of what is the question.

 

[Der Alte]

I don’t see that this verse shows that “olam” doesn’t mean necessarily eternal since eternally remembered (never forgotten) is still eternal.
The Hebrews used many metaphors and it was understood in the culture which seems to be lost in ours that uses comparatively fewer metaphors. Using a metaphor doesn’t mean the item, person, or matter isn’t real. The question is then if the references to hell (and Jesus speaks of hell more often than all others put together) are only a metaphor, what is then being spoken of? The reference to God being a rock is a reference to His character being solid. The reference to Jesus being a door speaks of what a surrender to Him opens to a person who so chooses. To those who say “hell” is merely a metaphor, a metaphor of what is the question.

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? I definitely believe that Hebrew "olam" and Greek "aionios" mean "eternal.""everlasting,""for ever."

 

[SkyWriting]

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? I definitely believe that Hebrew "olam" and Greek "aionios" mean "eternal.""everlasting,""for ever."

Another understand about the usage is that "unending" can refer to "relentless" or "persistent". In the model I've come to use, suffering in Hell is relentless, even though Hell is destroyed eventually.

So punishments in Hell are eternal.....until Hell is destroyed.

 

[Der Alte]

Hell in verse 15 is the realm of the dead. Comparable to Acts 2:28 - Psalm 16:10

Luke 10:12
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
Luke 10:14-15
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.​

Sounds like a fate worse than death to me.

 

[Der Alte]

Another understand about the usage is that "unending" can refer to "relentless" or "persistent". In the model I've come to use, suffering in Hell is relentless, even though Hell is destroyed eventually.
So punishments in Hell are eternal.....until Hell is destroyed.

Funny the NT never says "until Hell is destroyed." Do you suppose that Jesus did not know what He was talking about.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

 

[JulieB67]

Funny the NT never says "until Hell is destroyed." Do you suppose that Jesus did not know what He was talking about.
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Ceasing to exist is everlasting punishment. Or punishment until you don't exist anymore. God is a consuming fire.

Christ specifically states both body and soul are destroyed in Hell.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is the second death.

And we see that yes, hell is destroyed,

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Fire consumes, that's what it does. But what you're suggesting is this isn't really death. It's life eternal as well but in a different place.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Everything is new at this point.

Do you honestly believe that a loving Father's who doesn't want to see anyone even perish but that would come to repentance (we know all won't..) would have eternity set up for his children but also have people burning to death for all times?? He is a consuming fire. And even Satan will be turned to ash from within. The punishment is forever- ceasing to exist is forever. Their smoke rises forever but they don't.

 

[Der Alte]

Ceasing to exist is everlasting punishment. Or punishment until you don't exist anymore. God is a consuming fire.
Christ specifically states both body and soul are destroyed in Hell.
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is readily apparent that is what you have been intensely indoctrinated with and you have accepted without question. Even to the point of misrepresenting scripture. Jesus did NOT specifically say "both body and soul are destroyed in Hell" Jesus said, "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." What God created He can certainly destroy. But not one single verse says that even one soul has been or will be "destroyed in hell."

This is the second death. And we see that yes, hell is destroyed, Revelation20:14"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:6 This is the first resurrection. 6 and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, bu-t they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2 ​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two sentient beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them anything you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Fire consumes, that's what it does. But what you're suggesting is this isn't really death. It's life eternal as well but in a different place.
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
Everything is new at this point.

When God wants fire to burn and not destroy he did it before and can do it again whenever He chooses. Remember the burning bush in Exodus?

Do you honestly believe that a loving Father's who doesn't want to see anyone even perish but that would come to repentance (we know all won't..) would have eternity set up for his children but also have people burning to death for all times?? He is a consuming fire. And even Satan will be turned to ash from within. The punishment is forever- ceasing to exist is forever. Their smoke rises forever but they don't.

Where is it written that we fallible human beings get to tell God what is/is not fair or right for Him to do?
You said, "even Satan will be turned to ash from within." But God said ]Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.

 

[JulieB67]

It is readily apparent that is what you have been intensely indoctrinated with and you have accepted without question.

False. I was "intensely" indoctrinated with your beliefs. I was taught and brought up on the doctrine that you believe.

 

[Der Alte]

False. I was "intensely" indoctrinated with your beliefs. I was taught and brought up on the doctrine that you believe.

So you deliberately chose to embrace heretical views? Unlike many I did not "grow up" in any church or denomination. I first went to Sunday School when FDR was president. The only thing I remember was how good the red kool aid was. I attended Sunday school and occasionally church sporadically for quite a few years, usually when my paternal GM made me go. One didn't tell GM no! I became a Christian when LBJ was president. I questioned everything from day 1. I entered the ministry about 25 years later.
I notice how you ignored the bulk of my post.

 

[Saint Steven]

False. I was "intensely" indoctrinated with your beliefs. I was taught and brought up on the doctrine that you believe.

At some point you may be ready for the next step. Ultimate Redemption.
Jesus is the Savior of the world. Unless you think he failed his mission.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ specifically states both body and soul are destroyed in Hell.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The context is interesting.
Jesus begins by saying "be afraid" but ends by saying "don't be afraid".

Matt 10:28-31 NIV
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

 

[JulieB67]

So you deliberately chose to embrace heretical views?

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

This is the only thing I really wanted to respond to earlier but didn't because I couldn't quite believe that you wrote this. No offense even though you accused me of herectics, but do we have to have it spelled out for us? You admitted yourself that the LOF is called the second death but also needed to be further told that someone dies when thrown in. That doesn't even make sense. Being told it's the second death means exactly that, that you die when thrown in. This is the second death and it goes with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28. But according to some that doesn't mean that God will destroy the soul but that he could. Well, in Revelation he tells us specifically that's what will happen.

Going back to taking the bible as a whole, we see that our Father has tremendous love for his children. So much that he wants everyone to come to repentance, will they? No, but he takes no joy in the "destruction" of the wicked. He's letting us in on these very true facts. Giving us his true nature. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but if they don't come to repentance they will "perish" And the overall end of the wicked is simply death. He wants to find out who he will spend an enternity with and if someone doesn't come to repentance or rejects him, he will simply blot them out -the second death.

And it's all throughout the Word, this simple fact that the wages of sin is death period....Yes, I've seen your posts before on this subject and I've posted on a couple of other "hell" threads, etc. But nothing you've posted has changed my mind. We have to remember we're still being told what "will" happen, the revelation of Christ. Just because it says there will be no more death and a few verses later states that some will have their part in the LOF doesn't take away from the fact that anyone's name that's not in the book of life were thrown in. Those verses don't have to be chronologically lined up. It's a statement. We are being told that's what will happen. And sometimes we have to let the simple truths stand -the wages of sin is death.

John 3:16 is a verse you apparently don't believe. Yet, you accuse others of heretical views. Again, our Father is letting is in on some facts about his nature -he doesn't want anyone to "perish"

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

It doesn't say "whosoever believeth in him should not spend an eternity in hell". He said perish. But perish supposedly doesn't mean perish just as death and destruction don't mean what they mean in the context that they're given. People choose not to believe that in this case it means "destroy fully" etc.

And our time concept is completely different than God's. We have to remember also that the word "ever" can certainly mean simply "age" For example in the gospels when Christ is talking about the "end" of this world, we know that world is the same Greek word that is used for "ever" -aion. So we can see that in some instances aion does have an end. And this goes back to when we get to the new heavens and earth and the former has passed away, that aion is finished. Death is the last enemy. But it really all is about context. And again all throughout the bible, it's been about perishing, destruction, etc.