Metropolitan Kallistos, David Bentley Hart, Universalism, and the Church of the East

[rusmeister]

Neognosticism is everywhere, people all over the place cherry-picking Scripture and at most citing the few saints who dissented with the consensus of the fathers. “ “I” “know better”, and can interpret Scripture all by myself”.

I’m living among a whole bunch of people who consider themselves Orthodox, including in my own family, who are embracing various ideas that run completely counter to the consensus in our Tradition.

 

[The Liturgist]

Neognosticism is everywhere, people all over the place cherry-picking Scripture and at most citing the few saints who dissented with the consensus of the fathers. “ “I” “know better”, and can interpret Scripture all by myself”.

I’m living among a whole bunch of people who consider themselves Orthodox, including in my own family, who are embracing various ideas that run completely counter to the consensus in our Tradition.

Could you enumerate some of the specific ideas you are encountering?

 

[The Liturgist]

Thomas Talbott has written on this in his book THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD, and he answers all objections having to do with "free-will theodicy."

Frankly, I don’t care, because Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, has made a compelling argument that if God’s love is inescapable, it is not actually love.

It is ironic that some participants in this thread (other than yourself) have accused Metropolitan Kallistos of promoting a theology he very specifically and adamantly opposed, for this very reason.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think we should also keep in mind St Varus the martyr, who is invoked for the salvation of those who die outside of the Orthodox faith. plus the experiences of the saints who have shown certain folks who died in sin or outside of the Church, who are revealed to be in paradise.

Indeed so. I like that very much.

 

[The Liturgist]

Kallistos Ware was not an Orthodox Christian. True Christians believe in Scripture and the teaching of Christ. Universalism is an attack on the authority of Christ (who specifically taught eternal punishment) and the authority of Scripture (which specifically teaches eternal punishment).

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is an Orthodox Christian, who reposed in the peace of the church, who was a member of a canonical Orthodox church for almost all of his adult life, and a monk of the Monastery of St. John on Patmos, and who specifically opposed Universalism as a heresy. And he most definitely believed in Scripture and the teaching of Christ. Indeed, he was one of the editors of the Orthodox Study Bible.

Metropolitan Kallistos made a number of invaluable contributions to Eastern Orthodoxy in the English-speaking world, including, but not limited to:

• Writing The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way, which introduced millions of Christians to Eastern Orthodoxy and enabled a great many conversions, by demonstrating the beauty of our faith (in The Orthodox Way) and providing a straightforward introduction to Orthodox Christianity and its history in The Orthodox Church.
• Translating the Philokalia (before his repose, he and mother Mary translated the first four volumes; I am not sure as to how much progress has been made on the fifth volume; @ArmyMatt - did you and I recently discuss the fifth volume? I vaguely recall hearing something about an effort being made to complete that translation and publish it, here on this forum.
• Translating, again with Mother Mary, the Lenten Triodion (along with supplements to the Lenten Triodion in a separate volume) and the Festal Menaion; these are excellent translations, in traditional English.
• Delivering many lectures around the world which had the effect of promoting Orthodoxy to new generations, and which inspired many to convert, including myself.
• Conducting ecumenical discussions with the Roman Catholic Church in a manner that respected the concerns of those Orthodox Christians who are understandably wary of the prospects of reunification.

The only group I know of that is consistently opposed to Metropolitan Kallistos is that of the Old Calendarists, but I am not troubled by this; among members of the canonical Orthodox churches Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is much loved, and deservedly so.

I would also note that concerning theistic evolution, no canonical Orthodox church has, to my knowledge, declared this belief to be heretical, and certainly it has not been declared a heresy by an ecumenical council or by a general synod such as the Synod of Dositheus which anathematized Calvinism in 1672.

Thus I believe it is entirely wrong to deny the Orthodoxy of a much-loved bishop of Metropolitcal rank in a canonical Orthodox church whose work has led to many converts to Holy Orthodoxy and who has personally been, together with Mother Mary, among the first translators to make the Philokalia, the Triodion and the Festal Menaion accessible in English, which is now the most widely understood language in the world, having surpassed French for some time, and who reposed in the peace of the church only last year, and who is still being mourned by many, including myself.

Indeed, his death, along with that of Metropolitan HIlarion Kapral of ROCOR and that of Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain, and also of the great composer and organist Sir Francis Jackson, in 2022, is one of several that occurred in that very unpleasant year that continues to be a source of sadness for me (another being the death of my eldest uncle Richard, memory eternal).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Indeed so. I like that very much.

same here

 

[ArmyMatt]

Translating the Philokalia (before his repose, he and mother Mary translated the first four volumes; I am not sure as to how much progress has been made on the fifth volume; @ArmyMatt - did you and I recently discuss the fifth volume? I vaguely recall hearing something about an effort being made to complete that translation and publish it, here on this forum.

I think we did

 

[rusmeister]

Could you enumerate some of the specific ideas you are encountering?

Well, I could start with the promotion of Universalism, cherry-picking Scripture and quoting the dissidents to patristic consensus on this thread.
In my own life, the most devastating has been the embrace of sexual anarchy by Orthodox Christians around me, and close to me, including family members, as well as hierarchs. The anarchy ranges from the promotion of the alphabet soup to the general approval of divorce between practicing orthodox Christians to the promotion of feminism in general, and support for these things, directly or indirectly, including on platforms like ancient faith ministries.
The promotion of leftism in general in the Church. The promotion and praise of hierarchs, who support things like the racist BLM, and forced drugs, masquerading as vaccines, of human evolution, and so on. It’s hard to know where to stop.

 

[Euthymios]

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is an Orthodox Christian, who reposed in the peace of the church, who was a member of a canonical Orthodox church for almost all of his adult life, and a monk of the Monastery of St. John on Patmos, and who specifically opposed Universalism as a heresy. And he most definitely believed in Scripture and the teaching of Christ. Indeed, he was one of the editors of the Orthodox Study Bible.

Metropolitan Kallistos made a number of invaluable contributions to Eastern Orthodoxy in the English-speaking world, including, but not limited to:

• Writing The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way, which introduced millions of Christians to Eastern Orthodoxy and enabled a great many conversions, by demonstrating the beauty of our faith (in The Orthodox Way) and providing a straightforward introduction to Orthodox Christianity and its history in The Orthodox Church.
• Translating the Philokalia (before his repose, he and mother Mary translated the first four volumes; I am not sure as to how much progress has been made on the fifth volume; @ArmyMatt - did you and I recently discuss the fifth volume? I vaguely recall hearing something about an effort being made to complete that translation and publish it, here on this forum.
• Translating, again with Mother Mary, the Lenten Triodion (along with supplements to the Lenten Triodion in a separate volume) and the Festal Menaion; these are excellent translations, in traditional English.
• Delivering many lectures around the world which had the effect of promoting Orthodoxy to new generations, and which inspired many to convert, including myself.
• Conducting ecumenical discussions with the Roman Catholic Church in a manner that respected the concerns of those Orthodox Christians who are understandably wary of the prospects of reunification.

The only group I know of that is consistently opposed to Metropolitan Kallistos is that of the Old Calendarists, but I am not troubled by this; among members of the canonical Orthodox churches Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is much loved, and deservedly so.

I would also note that concerning theistic evolution, no canonical Orthodox church has, to my knowledge, declared this belief to be heretical, and certainly it has not been declared a heresy by an ecumenical council or by a general synod such as the Synod of Dositheus which anathematized Calvinism in 1672.

Thus I believe it is entirely wrong to deny the Orthodoxy of a much-loved bishop of Metropolitcal rank in a canonical Orthodox church whose work has led to many converts to Holy Orthodoxy and who has personally been, together with Mother Mary, among the first translators to make the Philokalia, the Triodion and the Festal Menaion accessible in English, which is now the most widely understood language in the world, having surpassed French for some time, and who reposed in the peace of the church only last year, and who is still being mourned by many, including myself.

Indeed, his death, along with that of Metropolitan HIlarion Kapral of ROCOR and that of Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain, and also of the great composer and organist Sir Francis Jackson, in 2022, is one of several that occurred in that very unpleasant year that continues to be a source of sadness for me (another being the death of my eldest uncle Richard, memory eternal).

A lot of your arguments in defense of Metropolitan Kalliostos Ware are emotional, not intellectual. A true Orthodox Christian is in perfect harmony with Holy Tradition. This precludes Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's belief in religious pluralism. How do you explain his statement? I quoted him directly, where he expressly denied Orthodox Christian exclusivism. As for your claim about evolution, you committed the fallacy of arguing from silence. Arguments from silence don't prove anything. We don't need an Orthodox Council to condemn it, because the universal patristic teaching makes belief in evolution absolutely impossible for Orthodox Christians, since they were all young earth creationists. Kallistos Ware also contradicted the Tradition of the Church by supporting the ordination of women. And no, I am not an Old Calendarist, although I believe we should stay with the Old Calendar.

 

[Euthymios]

Well, I could start with the promotion of Universalism, cherry-picking Scripture and quoting the dissidents to patristic consensus on this thread.
In my own life, the most devastating has been the embrace of sexual anarchy by Orthodox Christians around me, and close to me, including family members, as well as hierarchs. The anarchy ranges from the promotion of the alphabet soup to the general approval of divorce between practicing orthodox Christians to the promotion of feminism in general, and support for these things, directly or indirectly, including on platforms like ancient faith ministries.
The promotion of leftism in general in the Church. The promotion and praise of hierarchs, who support things like the racist BLM, and forced drugs, masquerading as vaccines, of human evolution, and so on. It’s hard to know where to stop.

Well said. A lot of these churches allow their members to receive Holy Communion, even though they are liberal Democrats, like the notorious Archbishop Elpidophoros of the Greek Archdiocese. The Democratic Party embraces concepts diametrically opposed to the holy Christian faith. The problem today is with modernism in the clergy, and I suspect it's only to get worse. St. Cosmos prophesied that in the last days the clergy would be the worst Christians of all.

 

[Euthymios]

I think we should also keep in mind St Varus the martyr, who is invoked for the salvation of those who die outside of the Orthodox faith. plus the experiences of the saints who have shown certain folks who died in sin or outside of the Church, who are revealed to be in paradise.

I believe there are exceptions to the general rule. I think St. Gregory the Great prayed for a pagan emperor who was in hell, and God answered the prayer and saved him. But Christ's teaching is clear-cut. He taught that unless a person is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. (John 3:5).
The following quotes are from the book, "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs," by Bercot, pages 150 and on. The sources are provided in the book.

St. Lactantius: ..."This is the everlasting temple. If anyone has not sacrificed in this, he will not have the reward of immortality"...

St. Cyprian: "Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the church."

St. Cyprian: "There is no salvation outside of the church."

St. Cyprian: ..."remission of sins is not granted except in the church."

St. Cyprian: "The house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to anyone except in the church."

 

[prodromos]

A true Orthodox Christian is in perfect harmony with Holy Tradition.

Let me know if you ever happen to find one.

 

[Euthymios]

Let me know if you ever happen to find one.

Most Orthodox Christians and the saints in history. Unfortunately, today many Orthodox people have been influenced by unworthy hierarches and clergy diseased by modernism, secularism and ecumenism.

 

[abacabb3]

What I don't like is "hopeful universalism." Because even if universalism (whether for unbaptized infants or all around) is true at some point (i.e. before the final judgement they get prayed out of hades), clearly the way God had matters worded in the Scriptures and Church Tradition were intended not to give people the impression of univeralism, as this would diminish evangelism, receiving the sacraments, personal ascesis, etc. Hence, "hopeful universalism" is completely contrary to God's intent, which then demands the question, what spirit then brings it up if it is not of God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe there are exceptions to the general rule. I think St. Gregory the Great prayed for a pagan emperor who was in hell, and God answered the prayer and saved him. But Christ's teaching is clear-cut. He taught that unless a person is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. (John 3:5).
The following quotes are from the book, "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs," by Bercot, pages 150 and on. The sources are provided in the book.

St. Lactantius: ..."This is the everlasting temple. If anyone has not sacrificed in this, he will not have the reward of immortality"...

St. Cyprian: "Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the church."

St. Cyprian: "There is no salvation outside of the church."

St. Cyprian: ..."remission of sins is not granted except in the church."

St. Cyprian: "The house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to anyone except in the church."

if there is a history of exceptions to the rule, then that shows that God isn’t bound by the Church and can save whomever He chooses.

 

[Light of the East]

I believe there are exceptions to the general rule. I think St. Gregory the Great prayed for a pagan emperor who was in hell, and God answered the prayer and saved him. But Christ's teaching is clear-cut. He taught that unless a person is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. (John 3:5).

Which leaves out a couple of billion people who never even heard of Jesus or the Christian faith. Well, meeeeaaaah . . . too bad for them, as one Baptist layperson told me one day after our service when we were discussing the issue of salvation and pagans. I guess if you got your salvation, the salvation of others really isn't that important, is it? (Yes, deliberately smarmy attitude!)

The following quotes are from the book, "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs," by Bercot, pages 150 and on. The sources are provided in the book.

St. Lactantius: ..."This is the everlasting temple. If anyone has not sacrificed in this, he will not have the reward of immortality"...

St. Cyprian: "Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the church."

St. Cyprian: "There is no salvation outside of the church."

St. Cyprian: ..."remission of sins is not granted except in the church."

St. Cyprian: "The house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to anyone except in the church."

I remember reading a post about this which was responding to a Roman Catholic who was using St. Cyprian's words against Orthodoxy. The response had to do with (as I remember) the fact that there was a schism going on in the Church at that time and St. Cyprian's words were not a general warning but were tailored to the events of that time to warn the schismatics.

Could it be that the understanding of just how vast the world is and how many unreached people groups existed at the time of the Fathers somewhat clouded their outlook on salvation?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Could it be that the understanding of just how vast the world is and how many unreached people groups existed at the time of the Fathers somewhat clouded their outlook on salvation?

collectively? no, as the Fathers continue to the present time. plus, they had evangelized into China, deep into sub-Saharan Africa, as well as the Middle East and Europe. they were well aware that the Earth was vast.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Which leaves out a couple of billion people who never even heard of Jesus or the Christian faith. Well, meeeeaaaah . . . too bad for them, as one Baptist layperson told me one day after our service when we were discussing the issue of salvation and pagans. I guess if you got your salvation, the salvation of others really isn't that important, is it? (Yes, deliberately smarmy attitude!)

this is a good point. God was preparing all cultures to accept the Gospel when He knew they are ready, it’s just that the Jews were unique to bring the fullness of His truth.

 

[The Liturgist]

this is a good point. God was preparing all cultures to accept the Gospel when He knew they are ready, it’s just that the Jews were unique to bring the fullness of His truth.

On this point we believe in the Harrowing of Hell, and also I think many Eastern Orthodox would agree with the Roman Catholic concept of invicible ignorance.

Only Calvinists I think would regard all such people as inherently damned.

 

[ArmyMatt]

On this point we believe in the Harrowing of Hell, and also I think many Eastern Orthodox would agree with the Roman Catholic concept of invicible ignorance.

Only Calvinists I think would regard all such people as inherently damned.

true, but I don’t think we go into invincible ignorance. that theory sounds off to me.