David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Der Alte]

See my post above #698. If Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart are eternally unforgiveable for their sins, then Jesus fails and we're all doomed.

Only if they die unrepentant. Unless Jesus is a liar.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Only if they die unrepentant. Unless Jesus is a liar.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

I just don't see where Jesus says that in the verse you're proudly holding aloft der Alte.

 

[Saint Steven]

These questions on the free will of man and our choices are difficult and mysterious. Yet the bottom line for me is that understanding Universal Restoration appears to me to be like a three-legged stool consisting of the revelation of God in Christ, i.e., that God is love, the revelation of scripture, and the Holy Tradition of the church. Taking any one of these three as a sole source of truth is a recipe for theological disaster. In doing my investigation and putting all three of these sources together, I believe I have good reason for a strong hope in God’s ultimate restoration of all things, including all people.

Thanks for your post. I have a question for you. (or anyone, really)

I was raised Protestant. So, when considering the three legged stool, I'm not sure what to do with "the Holy Tradition of the church" leg. Catholics and Orthodox are much more focused on this. (the understatement of the week? - lol) I suppose there are things that translate in both traditions, but I'm not sure if you meant more than that, or not.

 

[Der Alte]

See my post above #698. If Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart are eternally unforgiveable for their sins, then Jesus fails and we're all doomed.

Only if they remain unrepentant until death.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Did Jesus lie in Matt 7:22-23? When Jesus said never did He really mean for a little while.

So could be believers who've been deceived by the devil, you suggest. Eternal damnation is a pretty harsh penalty, and the grounds are vague enough to ruffle the feathers of one's assurance. are they not?
If I truly believed in ECT then I'd have sleepless nights over this. The offence is so ill-defined as to resemble the grounds for 'disappearance' of dissidents in a communist hellhole.

If you don't like what scripture says go talk to the author. I only quoted it.

May I ask, have you ever condemned a brother or sister in your heart with a 'thou fool'? Because that would be enough. Do you suffer from any of the 22 categories of sins that Paul identifies? Because that would be enough. Have you ever neglected a beggar? Because that would be enough.

Same denial of scripture. Same response. Go talk to the author I only quoted it.

You see, it's an untenable proposition, to take these apparent 'hell texts' from Christ and build a smash and bash doctrine from them. EVERYBODY WOULD BE IRRETRIEVABLY DAMNED (or annihilated, if you prefer).

What is it exactly you don't like about Matthew 7:22-23,
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Der Alte]

I just don't see where Jesus says that in the verse you're proudly holding aloft der Alte.

What exactly do you think Matt 7:22-23 means? The language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox has been Greek for 2000 years +/- who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the correct translation of the Greek in the NT?

Matthew 7:22 Many will tell me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name, and do many deeds of power in your Name?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked.’(fn)
(fn) Or “you who work iniquity”
Cleenewerck, L., ed. (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 7:22–23). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

 

[JulieB67]

May I ask, have you ever condemned a brother or sister in your heart with a 'thou fool'? Because that would be enough. Do you suffer from any of the 22 categories of sins that Paul identifies? Because that would be enough. Have you ever neglected a beggar? Because that would be enough.

I am not anyone's judge, that goes to our Father but it's all about repentance. We all fall short and if you're like me it can happen pretty often. And sometimes the sanctification process can take years for some of the things we might struggle with. But he is the true heart knower he knows who's sincere in their journey with him or who is just playing "church" And our Father wishes all would come to repentance. But we are specifically told some won't. And that's their choice.

Even when the angels are pouring out the vials, these people still blasphemed God and repented not. God is later throwing out hail stones, these people are not repenting. They blasphemed God continually.

Christ is giving you his Revelation of what is going to happen and he specifically is pointing out that there is no repentance with these people. If the LOF is truly a redemptive measure it would be laid out in the book of Revelation because Christ has promised us he has "foretold us all things". Why would he specifically point out the non repentance but omit that people did come to repentance after going into the LOF? Instead he calls it the "second death".

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Even when the angels are pouring out the vials, these people still blasphemed God and repented not. God is later throwing out hail stones, these people are not repenting. They blasphemed God continually.

Ah yes, but we see in Revelation with each tribulation that many repent and convert. That's the direction of salvation, that's the Omega Plan - all must be saved. The LoF is the final remedy for the sinner who can't or won't.

Christ is giving you his Revelation of what is going to happen and he specifically is pointing out that there is no repentance with these people. If the LOF is truly a redemptive measure it would be laid out in the book of Revelation because Christ has promised us he has "foretold us all things". Why would he specifically point out the non repentance but omit that people did come to repentance after going into the LOF? Instead he calls it the "second death".

But he does. The nations are the classic unbelievers. We're told in Revelation 15:4 that all the nations will come and worship (in line with the Abrahamic covenant, the Koreshic oath, Isaiah's final prophecies and many other such affirmations throughout scripture). Later all unbelievers are cast into the LoF (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), during which time God proclaims 'Behold I am making all things anew!' (Revelation 21:5) and reminded that Yeshua (God's salvation) is the alpha and omega (Revelation 21:6) ie salvation has the last word. After that, miraculously, the nations and kings of the earth re-appear in Revelation 21:24-26 to enter through the ever-open Pearly Gates in worship. At last they are given the healing from the leaves of the tree of life - Jesus Christ - in Revelation 22:2.

The second death is the death of the listed sins, the 'old man', and finally of death itself, the last enemy to be destroyed. This was guaranteed/ sealed in holy blood by down-payment made at Calvary. The enemies are spiritual, that what is destroyed in the LoF - the unbelief, the idolatry, the carnality and all that rot.

Just have to follow the bouncing ball and read the symbolic visions of Revelation spiritually not carnally. What a story the Bible, God's glorious and beautiful heaven of grace and truth comes to earth, the consummation of the blessed covenants and vows...and everyone get boiled in a pot like lobsters. Please, no.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What exactly do you think Matt 7:22-23 means? The language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox has been Greek for 2000 years +/- who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the correct translation of the Greek in the NT?

Matthew 7:22 Many will tell me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name, and do many deeds of power in your Name?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked.’(fn)
(fn) Or “you who work iniquity”
Cleenewerck, L., ed. (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 7:22–23). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

What I think is opinionated irrelevant bloviated nonsensical heterodox rubbish (did I miss any?).

But why is casting out demons in Jesus' name iniquitous and deserving of the ultimate punishment? Bit speculative isn't it? Not particularly satisfying to your rank and file Christian brother who's just trying to please God daily, now is it?

 

[Andrewn]

For example, Gregory of Nyssa wrote:
some portion of the blessedness of the virtuous will consist in this; in contemplating side by side with their own felicity the perdition of the reprobate. He says, “The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; he shall wash his hands in the blood of the ungodly”

No, this is a quote from Nietzsche that he attribute to Tertuillian and atheists love to repeat. It was also repeated by Pope Gregory I according to Henry Charles Lea's book "A History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages (pp. 240-241).

Definitely not from Gregory of Nyssa.

But look at the context of Psa 58:10, which is conquering the wicked. The famous psychologist Jung commented on the psychological aspect of the book of Revelation. This is completely different from ECT.

 

[Andrewn]

And we see that yes, hell is destroyed,

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

But then the very next verse says:

Rev 20:15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm not saying this proves ECT. I'm only saying that Rev 20:14 does not prove annihilation.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Everything is new at this point.

But then, continue reading:

Rev 21:8 But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

I'm not saying this proves ECT. I'm only saying that Rev 21:1 does not prove annihilation.

The only "proof" these verses may provide is based on the assumption that "death" means "annihilation." Circular logic? But I'm sure your conviction is based on other verses.

 

[Andrewn]

For people that don't care about Christ/or repentance certainly because after judgement day they won't have one. And most especially those that did once believe and turn their backs on him, fall into apostasy never finding repentance again. But we know many don't believe or could care less, etc.

You often talk about conditional immortality. But what is your belief about the intermediate state between physical death and the final judgment? Do you believe in the possibility of post-mortem progression? (I mean coming to repent and believe in the sacrifice of Christ.)

 

[Andrewn]

Also, this could be people doing something contrary to the Word but in his name etc.

I have no doubt that this is the meaning of the verse.

 

[JulieB67]

But he does. The nations are the classic unbelievers. We're told in Revelation 15:4 that all the nations will come and worship (in line with the Abrahamic covenant, the Koreshic oath, Isaiah's final prophecies and many other such affirmations throughout scripture). Later all unbelievers are cast into the LoF (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), during which time God proclaims 'Behold I am making all things anew!' (Revelation 21:5) and reminded that Yeshua (God's salvation) is the alpha and omega (Revelation 21:6) ie salvation has the last word. After that, miraculously, the nations and kings of the earth re-appear in Revelation 21:24-26 to enter through the ever-open Pearly Gates in worship. At last they are given the healing from the leaves of the tree of life - Jesus Christ - in Revelation 22:2.

It does not say all nations were thrown into the LOF and came out repentant.

When Christ returns all knees will bow because they will in fact know that he is the Son of God. But it doesn't mean some will stay that way. We know that Satan in his little season once again will draw many towards him after him being non existent for a 1000 years. But that shouldn't be suprising to some because even in Moses time, they forsook God and railed against him even after witnessing the miracles he performed firsthand.
Christ states that blessed are those that take part in the first resurrection because they will reign with Christ a 1000 years and because the second death has no power over them. Their souls are set for the eternity. They will be within the city, they've made it and are reigning with Christ. And you know why they are specifically blessed-because they don't have to go through this,

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. These people still have mortal souls and are spiritually dead.

Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

Revelation 20:8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

After a 1000 years Satan is still able to draw that many people. You wouldn't think that after 1000 years without him that would be possible But again we have to look only back to Moses's time and see that some people can't help being deceived or rail against God and of course Satan plays a good game.

But afterwards these same "dead" that did not make it in the first ressurection are judged. And instead of being saved by grace, they are judged by works. Grace is no longer allowed because they've seen the Son, etc. Faith can't even come into the equation. Because faith is the hope for things unseen.

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Later on, it doesn't say all nations shall walk in the light of it, it specifically states,

Revelation 21:24 "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

Meaning some are not saved. Salvation is open for all, if they choose. Again, some will not repent. And apparently some will not overcome.

Also we have to be careful with which translation we are reading.

Does that mean God is not fair? No, it means he's fair by completely thorough. He wants to see once and for all who is going to follow him or follow Satan. That's ultimately what it's all about in the end.

The second death is the death of the listed sins, the 'old man', and finally of death itself, the last enemy to be destroyed. This was guaranteed/ sealed in holy blood by down-payment made at Calvary. The enemies are spiritual, that what is destroyed in the LoF - the unbelief, the idolatry, the carnality and all that rot.

That's not biblical.

Those aren't Christ's words. He calls it the second death and I believe him. It also coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28 although people choose not to believe that as well. Only believing "he could destroy but he wont."

Rev 20:15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

I don't see what your point is, this is a statement period. 14 states it's the second death and in 15, it states anyone not in the book of life is thrown in.

Afterwards we see this,

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and
the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

But then, continue reading:

Rev 21:8 But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

I'm not saying this proves ECT. I'm only saying that Rev 21:1 does not prove annihilation.

But once again context comes into play and the fact that Christ is making known what "will" happen. You say continue reading but I saw go up a verse,

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

That's it in a nutshell, Christ can't be any more clear on the subject. He's just stating what is going to happen. He's simply reiterating. None of this has happened yet. We have to remember Christ is revealing what "will" happen.

Do you believe in the possibility of post-mortem progression? (I mean coming to repent and believe in the sacrifice of Christ.)

I believe there's a gulf and I believe as soon as Christ died he went unto the people on that side of the gulf and preached to them.

Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

But again, I believe it's all about repentance which we know means "a change of heart/mind" If some don't and continue to hate our Father, why would we want to spend an eternity with them?

ETA And I think there are no chances after judgement day and after being thrown into the LOF since Christ states this is the "second" death. Since we know the first death is the death of the physical body common sense alone along with his teaching in Matthew 10 :28 tells us this is the death of the soul.

If I actually saw scriptures that state the LOF was a redemptive measure, I would believe. I really would. But Christ specifically states what is going to happen. We only have to again read verses 7 and 8 of Rev 21 to know.

 

[Der Alte]

What I think is opinionated irrelevant bloviated nonsensical heterodox rubbish (did I miss any?).
But why is casting out demons in Jesus' name iniquitous and deserving of the ultimate punishment? Bit speculative isn't it? Not particularly satisfying to your rank and file Christian brother who's just trying to please God daily, now is it?

If you don't like what Jesus said in Matt 7:22-23 maybe you need to get your heart right with God.
What exactly do you think Matt 7:22-23 means? The language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox has been Greek for 2000 years +/- who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the correct translation of the Greek in the NT?

Matthew 7:22 Many will tell me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name, and do many deeds of power in your Name?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked.’(fn)
....(fn) Or “you who work iniquity”
Cleenewerck, L., ed. (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 7:22–23). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

So please give me your version of what Matt 7:22-23 "really" means. Bear in mind the EOB quoted above.

 

[Fervent]

No, this is a quote from Nietzsche that he attribute to Tertuillian and atheists love to repeat. It was also repeated by Pope Gregory I according to Henry Charles Lea's book "A History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages (pp. 240-241).

Definitely not from Gregory of Nyssa.

But look at the context of Psa 58:10, which is conquering the wicked. The famous psychologist Jung commented on the psychological aspect of the book of Revelation. This is completely different from ECT.

That quote is Gregory of Nyssa from On Infant's Early Death. To be fair, though, the lack of context makes it appear far more in line with Tertullian and Calvin than it is and my quoting it that way was meant to be illustrative of why quoting out of context doesn't give a true indication of what any particular author thought.

 

[Andrewn]

I believe there's a gulf and I believe as soon as Christ died he went unto the people on that side of the gulf and preached to them.

1Pe 3:19-20 is definitely relevant to the question and you seem to believe that some unbelievers repented (changed their mind) after hearing the Good News. So, you do not object to the possibility of post-mortem progression for some souls. But you certainly object to idea that everyone will repent either before or after the the final judgment. Do I understood you correctly?

 

[JulieB67]

So, you do not object to the possibility of post-mortem progression for some souls. But you certainly object to idea that everyone will repent either before or after the the final judgment. Do I understood you correctly?

Yes, those are my beliefs. I believe Christ was able to save certain ones or what would be the point of him immediately going there. I think it's awesome. But I also believe once someone has been thrown into the LOF, they are turned to ashes. That's what fire does, it consumes. I think when we see passages that point to people being refined by fire, those are analogies, not the LOF. Not all fire is created equal in the bible. The LOF was specifically prepared for Satan and his angels. We are specifally told over and over repentence has to come into play.

That's why also our Father is so longsuffering because he wants all to come to repentance before that final judgement. If all he has to do is throw someone into the LOF, why would he need to be so longsuffering? He could stop things right now if that was the case. It doesn't make sense. He is long suffering because he wishes as all would come to repentance period.

ETA but we are told that anyone that does not overcome will have their part in the LOF. So it's obvious some never found repentance in their heart.

Again, if I saw any scriptures that state that the LOF has redemptive measures I would believe. But to perish means to destroy "fully" I know some believe that it only means ruin, etc but those are the first words in the meaning and everything that we've read throughout the Bible implies that they will be reduced to stubble, leaving neither root or branch. They will be blotted out.

 

[Der Alte]

1Pe 3:19-20 is definitely relevant to the question and you seem to believe that some unbelievers repented (changed their mind) after hearing the Good News. So, you do not object to the possibility of post-mortem progression for some souls. But you certainly object to idea that everyone will repent either before or after the the final judgment. Do I understood you correctly?

Hell/the grave is never called prison in the Bible and prison is never called hell/ the grave.
Jesus' earthly ministry did not include preaching to the dead in hell/the grave.

Luke 4:17-18
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in hell/the grave, only individual corpses.
.....If the purpose of Jesus' preaching was the salvation of those there, it was a dismal failure only 8 persons were saved, Noah and his family, and they were not dead in the grave, they were alive when they were saved.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

 

[JulieB67]

Jesus' earthly ministry

We are talking about after Christ died in the flesh, he was quickened in the Spirit. He was made alive and it was by that quickeining Spirit that he was able to go to them.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

And it was by that Spirit that he went to the spirits in prison. We aren't talking earthly men at that point, Christ was put to death but immediately quickened (made alive) in the Spirit and therefore was able to preach to them.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

It doesn't say he saved only 8 souls. He's just pointing out that at that time, only 8 souls were saved by water.

We find out in the very next chapter, some were indeed saved. Christ's salvation is open for all, even those that had passed before him. Those people that have passed before Christ died and rose are given the same chance as those in the flesh afterwards.

I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

I Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

They were given the same chance as men in the flesh.

 

[Der Alte]

We are talking about after Christ died in the flesh, he was quickened in the Spirit. He was made alive and it was by that quickeining Spirit that he was able to go to them.
I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

1 Pet 3:18 does not say by that quickening Spirit that he was able to go to them. "It says the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God." Not "them."

And it was by that Spirit that he went to the spirits in prison. We aren't talking earthly men at that point, Christ was put to death but immediately quickened (made alive) in the Spirit and therefore was able to preach to them.
I Peter 3:19

"By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

Where is this "prison?" "Hell"/"the grave" is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called "Hell"/"the grave" anywhere in the Bible

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
It doesn't say he saved only 8 souls. He's just pointing out that at that time, only 8 souls were saved by water.

That's how you understand it 2000 years later. How did the Jews and non-Jews who first heard this in the 1st century understand this? They didn't have any preconceptions, the great majority did not even have a Bible.

We find out in the very next chapter, some were indeed saved. Christ's salvation is open for all, even those that had passed before him. Those people that have passed before Christ died and rose are given the same chance as those in the flesh afterwards.

I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
I Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
They were given the same chance as men in the flesh.

Please explain to me how dead people can be judged according to men in the flesh? And how do the dead "live according to God in the spirit" while they are dead.