Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[FineLinen]

[QUOTE="GTW27, post: 76952049, member: 200843"There is no universal salvation for mankind, but The Lord is still drawing man unto Himself. Perhaps, some of this group will hear His Voice and repent. This is the only way that they will know The Truth. The penalty will be worse for those who know The Way of righteousness and yet.......[/QUOTE]

The Lord of reconciliation declares He will draw ALL mankind unto himself. There is no perhaps!

I will helko pas to Me!

 

[FineLinen]

[QUOTE="GTW27, post: 76952049, member: 200843"There is no universal salvation for mankind, but The Lord is still drawing man unto Himself. Perhaps, some of this group will hear His Voice and repent. This is the only way that they will know The Truth. The penalty will be worse for those who know The Way of righteousness and yet.......

The Lord of reconciliation declares He will draw ALL mankind unto himself. There is no perhaps!

I will helko pas to Me![/QUOTE]

 

[Der Alte]

Which Greek New Testament? Which Hebrew Old Testament? You see it isn't that simple. The first manuscripts not really unveiled for the New Testament until about the 4th century and then a team of elders in the Church decided which books to exclude from their approved books.

You would not know the difference. You tell me what version you use.

 

[HSong]

Acts 3:21 NLT: “[Jesus] must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of ALL things, as God promised long ago through the prophets."

There’s nothing else that this can refer to beside the complete restoration of every living being to God. All things in the world will be restored to their original purpose, like it was in the Garden of Eden, when we were all happy.

 

[Deafsilence]

You would not know the difference. You tell me what version you use.

Mainly the Textus Receptus and LXX but do use the Masoretic text also. Of course I see the Book of Enoch and various other writings and even "spurious" works to be of value. The Spirit aids me in my understanding when I read them.

 

[Deafsilence]

Acts 3:21 NLT: “[Jesus] must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of ALL things, as God promised long ago through the prophets."

There’s nothing else that this can refer to beside the complete restoration of every living being to God. All things in the world will be restored to their original purpose, like it was in the Garden of Eden, when we were all happy.

We are less than 18 years from that time right now.

 

[Der Alte]

Glad you asked. I actually did mention this previously. Aionios is indeed an adjective. It describes something in reference to the age in context as enduring that age. Meaning something that can possess the adjacent age or even ages. It doesn't speak to an end point at all but to a continuing point. In the Old Testament it comes from Olam which means 'concealed'. I think of it as the horizon in which what is beyond the horizon is concealed. So if something is aionios, then it speaks to something going beyond the age.
So it could be something that goes on for many ages or a single age but at least denotes something extending beyond the age in context for which is used. So when I read of Aionios punishment, I understand it as punishment extending beyond the current age. Robert Young uses the word 'age-enduring' and I think that is a very fitting way of looking at it but yet I think you need to also understanding that what it is - is something that exist also in the age that is being extended from. Now once we understand this and see the use of the word, we shouldn't necessarily afix our attention to something lasting ever more without end but rather we should afix our attention to the next age if used in that context. So to see AIONION Life, I would afix my attention to the next age which means that God is focusing our attention on the next age in which His Son shall rule. So if I have AIONION ZOE, that means I have life that is existing now and will endure the present age to extend into the next age (with length undetermined).

An interesting bit of biased fiction which includes no grammatical or lexical support whatsoever. Any resemblance to an actual Greek language resource is purely coincidental.
See my post #171, this thread for a lexical entry for the Greek word "αἰώνιος/aionios" from the Greek lexicon, Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, abbr. BDAG Greek lexicon.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses
This linked lexicon entry represents 120-160 years of combined Greek scholarship.
Unlike the piece of fiction above the scholars who compiled the linked entry listed approximately 80 historical sources they consulted in determining the correct meaning of the word.
Again, unlike the piece of fiction above, the BDAG scholars did not sit around making up definitions to fit their assumptions/presuppositions. They backed it up with historical evidence.
If one wants to challenge BDAG they need to bring 120-160 years of scholarship to the table and disprove a majority of the historical sources listed in BDAG. Quoting some scholar who claims that "'aionios' never means 'eternal' but really means 'age during'" or some other nonsense phrase means absolutely nothing without historical evidence.

 

[Der Alte]

Acts 3:21 NLT: “[Jesus] must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of ALL things, as God promised long ago through the prophets."
There’s nothing else that this can refer to beside the complete restoration of every living being to God. All things in the world will be restored to their original purpose, like it was in the Garden of Eden, when we were all happy.

If we ignore the words of Jesus, Himself, in vss. like Matthew 7:23.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus, Himself, did NOT say "Everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus, Himself, said "NOT everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven," Then Jesus said MANY, not a few, will brag to Him about all the "wonderful works" they claim they have done but Jesus will say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says "NEVER" He means "NEVER," not someday by and by.
The words of Peter and any other NT writer must be interpreted to agree with NOT contradict the words of Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

You have yet to think all this through from what I can see. You never thought about how your going to address how to define the word Eternal in each verse. And we have not really even got to who's responsibility it is if you go to hell. Or yet who chooses to save you. Let's remember, that none of the Apostles chose to be saved. They never chose Christ.

You don't have a clue what I have or have not done or thought about.
Really nothing to think about, "aionios" means "eternal."<period> Sometimes words are used figuratively. If "aionios," which means "eternal," refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal it does not change the inherent meaning of the word. It is figurative.
During my review of "aionios" I found that Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total]. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”

 

[Deafsilence]

An interesting bit of biased fiction which includes no grammatical or lexical support whatsoever. Any resemblance to an actual Greek language resource is purely coincidental.
See my post #171, this thread for a lexical entry for the Greek word "αἰώνιος/aionios" from the Greek lexicon, Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, abbr. BDAG Greek lexicon.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses
This linked lexicon entry represents 120-160 years of combined Greek scholarship.
Unlike the piece of fiction above the scholars who compiled the linked entry listed approximately 80 historical sources they consulted in determining the correct meaning of the word.
Again, unlike the piece of fiction above, the BDAG scholars did not sit around making up definitions to fit their assumptions/presuppositions. They backed it up with historical evidence.
If one wants to challenge BDAG they need to bring 120-160 years of scholarship to the table and disprove a majority of the historical sources listed in BDAG. Quoting some scholar who claims that "'aionios' never means 'eternal' but really means 'age during'" or some other nonsense phrase means absolutely nothing without historical evidence.

Why would I post a bunch of junk that I don't agree with? You want me to find scholars that are maintstream so you can agree with them? Well you may as well fellowship with the Pharisees. That is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD! You LOSE all credibility when you pots such nonsense to Christians in this forum.

Give me a break. You really think that Christians must conform to these Scholars that you approve of? Wow! You completely missed the message of Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior of mankind!

I would urge you to understand the SIGNIFICANCE of why Jesus went into the WILDERNESS to receive the Baptism.

I know nothing your saying has not been said to me before about a thousand times already but I get tired of the same old worn out arguments that have no serious value at all.

And it always amazes me how fast people of mainstream anti-universalist faiths want to claim "scholarship" views to support their position. Obviously to Universaliststhat is a key indicator that someone didn't get the newsletter. But WE do get it. And we are obviously holding a superior knowledge of the scriptures.

 

[Deafsilence]

If we ignore the words of Jesus, Himself, in vss. like Matthew 7:23.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus, Himself, did NOT say "Everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus, Himself, said "NOT everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven," Then Jesus said MANY, not a few, will brag to Him about all the "wonderful works" they claim they have done but Jesus will say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says "NEVER" He means "NEVER," not someday by and by.
The words of Peter and any other NT writer must be interpreted to agree with NOT contradict the words of Jesus.

DUH! but WHEN is that applicable? Obviously during the Judgement. Come on now.... Can you really not see this? God will save EVERYONE.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

RUT ROW! What does that say? Read it again? And then again? I'm sure you will have to tell us how it doesn't say what it says as you told us so many times how much the other verses really said what they said.

 

[Der Alte]

Why would I post a bunch of junk that I don't agree with? You want me to find scholars that are maintstream so you can agree with them? Well you may as well fellowship with the Pharisees. That is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD! You LOSE all credibility when you pots such nonsense to Christians in this forum.
Give me a break. You really think that Christians must conform to these Scholars that you approve of? Wow! You completely missed the message of Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior of mankind!
I would urge you to understand the SIGNIFICANCE of why Jesus went into the WILDERNESS to receive the Baptism.
I know nothing your saying has not been said to me before about a thousand times already but I get tired of the same old worn out arguments that have no serious value at all.
And it always amazes me how fast people of mainstream anti-universalist faiths want to claim "scholarship" views to support their position. Obviously to Universaliststhat is a key indicator that someone didn't get the newsletter. But WE do get it. And we are obviously holding a superior knowledge of the scriptures.

Nope! I expect you to do exactly what you did. You either made up everything you posted, or you found something, written by somebody, somewhere which says what you want to hear. And you did not disappoint me.
When I have an injury or illness I go to a Doctor and I expect to see some diplomas on his/her wall, including a license from a government agency which has examined said person and determined that the person is qualified to practice medicine.
If I have a legal problem I go to a lawyer and I expect to see some diplomas on his/her wall, including a license from a government agency which has examined said person and determined that the person is qualified to practice law.
Why would I get medical/legal information from some anonymous person online? Would you? It appears you would.
Using the same logic why would I believe something about the Bible, Jesus, salvation etc. written by some anonymous person online? You apparently do.
You don't believe the definitions I quote from BDAG? Good, universalism has been around at least since Origen, ca. 3rd-4th century, there should be some UR scholars around with some letters after their name, e.g. PhD, ThD etc. Find me a lexicon or grammar written/compiled by an unbiased Universalist scholar. I have asked before, crickets, I won't hold my breath. If you can't, and I am sure you cannot, why not? All major denominations have seminaries. Where are the Universalist colleges and seminaries preparing the next generations to be teachers and pastors?

 

[Der Alte]

DUH! but WHEN is that applicable? Obviously during the Judgement. Come on now.... Can you really not see this? God will save EVERYONE.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
RUT ROW! What does that say? Read it again? And then again? I'm sure you will have to tell us how it doesn't say what it says as you told us so many times how much the other verses really said what they said.

So you think that the words of Paul supersede the words of Jesus, Himself? Paul says "[God]Who will have all men to be saved."
What does God, Himself, say?

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; [YHWH] that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, [YHWH] Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Do you believe that Jesus was lying in Matt 7:23?

 

[HSong]

Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

You can not get any more exact than that. Everyone condemned by the original sin of Adam will be saved through the righteousness of Christ’s death.

 

[Der Alte]

Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
You can not get any more exact than that. Everyone condemned by the original sin of Adam will be saved through the righteousness of Christ’s death.

You do not disappoint. You have a laundry list of verses which seem to support UR but, Paul, the person who wrote Romans also said this,

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, [no wrongdoer] shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, [no wrongdoer] hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
Vss cited: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Deafsilence]

You do not disappoint. You have a laundry list of verses which seem to support UR but, Paul, the person who wrote Romans also said this,

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, [no wrongdoer] shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, [no wrongdoer] hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
Vss cited: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

If God chooses someone will they be saved?

 

[Der Alte]

If God chooses someone will they be saved?

Does not really address my post does it? Was Paul wrong or lying when he listed twenty-two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God?
In Matthew 7:21-23 was Jesus wrong or lying when He said, "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." And said to many, "I never knew you depart from me you workers of iniquity?"

 

[Deafsilence]

Does not really address my post does it? Was Paul wrong or lying when he listed twenty-two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God?
In Matthew 7:21-23 was Jesus wrong or lying when He said, "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." And said to many, "I never knew you depart from me you workers of iniquity?"

Are you saying that Matthew 7:21-23 is a proof verse that not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[Der Alte]

Are you saying that Matthew 7:21-23 is a proof verse that not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Unlike UR-ites and other controversial Christian groups I do not post "proof texts." A proof text is an out-of-context verse which when separated from its context seems to say something it actually does not say.
For example, UR-ites often quote 1 Cor 3:15 as if it says all mankind will be saved by having their ordinary, mundane works burned

1 Corinthians 3:15
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

I fully expect you to try to argue that is what it says. Before you do, please show me any other verse, 2 or more would be better, which states that unrighteous people will be saved by having their ordinary, mundane works burned? Needless to say, I am not holding my breath. I have read the book.

 

[Der Alte]

If God chooses someone will they be saved?

You tell me. Put me in my place by quoting your favorite "proof text." Meanwhile, back in the O.T.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​