Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[Deafsilence]

If it ain't actually, literally written in the Bible then it ain't gospel. As I said in another post. Lots of questionable religious groups have their own list of "what the Bible really means." and folks like me that don't belong to that group, I guess we're just walking around in darkness unless we accept the interpretation of one of those groups. How do we choose, eenie, meenie, minie mo? Or maybe kahwee bahwee bo, that is Korean for rock, paper , scissors.

You forgot to mention which Bible you were talking about. Their are several different canons developed over the years. Any some books/writings are mentioned in the Bible but many wouldn't dare claim to support them such as the Book of Enoch (which too comes in different writings).

But if you believe in such, then you surely couldn't believe in the Feast of Dedication since it is only mentioned and not defined. But those that read Maccabees they know it. Then there are other writings that show more but many wont read because it isn't in their respective canon so they don't know that the Gospels were written by two of the Seventy and by two Apostles. But the Spirit can lead you to the Truth and you have no need for someone to tell you which is right for you can discern what is needed.

 

[Deafsilence]

Nonsense! If the Bible is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and I know it is. It is just fine the way it is.

Again, which Bible? Which translation, or transcribing? Such statements lead to as much confusion as the Eternal Torment Doctrine.

 

[Der Alte]

I think you seen the problem you were into. But I'll spell it out for others.
You see if Alte sticks by the meaning that Aionios means Eternal then it poses big problems in the text because it some cases the Punishment is "eternal" or "everlasting" and so if he says that Eternal means always existing both in the past, current, and future then it would mean the punishment was always existing. But if he says it was limited in some manner then it would mean that Eternal Life is limited in some manner. This is why I like to bait ETers (Eternal Torment believers) into supporting their position with scholars and commentary etc... Because then they run away from being put in position to define what Eternal or Everlasting means in the different use cases.

Wrong you have not proved anything.
Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster

Definition of eternal
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: having infinite duration : EVERLASTING eternal damnation
b: of or relating to eternity
c: characterized by abiding fellowship with God good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a: continued without intermission : PERPETUAL an eternal flame
b: seemingly endless eternal delays
3archaic : INFERNAL some eternal villain … devised this slander
— William Shakespeare
4: valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS eternal verities
Eternal Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

 

[Der Alte]

Again, which Bible? Which translation, or transcribing? Such statements lead to as much confusion as the Eternal Torment Doctrine.

The Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. My first Greek professor was Dr. Roger Omanson, now deceased, was on the in initial NIV committee so I kind of favor the NIV.
In the '80s I was working on a military base and was giving a class on security to a group of Chaplains. I began my class by writing this word on an easel בטח it is the Hebrew word for security and asked if any of them knew the word. Sadly, none of them did, not even the one Jewish chaplain. One of my classmates from grad school was one of the chaplains.

 

[Der Alte]

You forgot to mention which Bible you were talking about. Their are several different canons developed over the years. Any some books/writings are mentioned in the Bible but many wouldn't dare claim to support them such as the Book of Enoch (which too comes in different writings).
But if you believe in such, then you surely couldn't believe in the Feast of Dedication since it is only mentioned and not defined. But those that read Maccabees they know it. Then there are other writings that show more but many wont read because it isn't in their respective canon so they don't know that the Gospels were written by two of the Seventy and by two Apostles. But the Spirit can lead you to the Truth and you have no need for someone to tell you which is right for you can discern what is needed.

The problem with this is different religious groups discern different things and believe anything they read or hear which supports their assumptions/presuppositions, as you have done above.

 

[Deafsilence]

Wrong you have not proved anything.
Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster

Definition of eternal
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: having infinite duration : EVERLASTING eternal damnation
b: of or relating to eternity
c: characterized by abiding fellowship with God good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a: continued without intermission : PERPETUAL an eternal flame
b: seemingly endless eternal delays
3archaic : INFERNAL some eternal villain … devised this slander
— William Shakespeare
4: valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS eternal verities
Eternal Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

Which one of those is it? So do you believe Eternal is #4 existing at all times? Surely you don't because then you would have to acknowledge that the Eternal Punishment exist at all times. So that wont work. But then if you say having indefinate duration that wouldn't make sense that you can have Life Indefinately. Now if you say it is to continue perpetually, then you void the past. So you are stuck in a pickle it looks like.

But I'll let you tell me what it means in each of the uses in this verse:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Go for it.

 

[Deafsilence]

The Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. My first Greek professor was Dr. Roger Omanson, now deceased, was on the in initial NIV committee so I kind of favor the NIV.
In the '80s I was working on a military base and was giving a class on security to a group of Chaplains. I began my class by writing this word on an easel בטח it is the Hebrew word for security and asked if any of them knew the word. Sadly, none of them did, not even the one Jewish chaplain. One of my classmates from grad school was one of the chaplains.

That didn't answer the question. In fact, I don't see anything that had to do with the question.

 

[Deafsilence]

The problem with this is different religious groups discern different things and believe anything they read or hear which supports their assumptions/presuppositions, as you have done above.

I disagree and wouldn't make such a blank statement. I believe many people in different denominations knows pieces of the Truth. While I agree that many are stuck believing what their ministers teach, I find many that are stuck in their pride and unable to admit their wrong. I use to bash Universalism when I believed in Eternal Torment and made the same wrong arguments that you have many so many countless times until I gave up my pride and I still know and remember the person that continued to debate me until I GOT it and came to myself with the though that maybe they were right. And it liberated me in so many ways.

 

[Der Alte]

That didn't answer the question. In fact, I don't see anything that had to do with the question.

The topic of this thread is Daily Christian Universalist Verses, not me. I am not here to play 20 questions. If you have an appropriate verse you wish to discuss, I'm your guy.

 

[Der Alte]

Which one of those is it? So do you believe Eternal is #4 existing at all times? Surely you don't because then you would have to acknowledge that the Eternal Punishment exist at all times. So that wont work. But then if you say having indefinate duration that wouldn't make sense that you can have Life Indefinately. Now if you say it is to continue perpetually, then you void the past. So you are stuck in a pickle it looks like.
But I'll let you tell me what it means in each of the uses in this verse:
Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Go for it.

Wrong! You tell me which one it means and I'll show how you are incorrect.

 

[GTW27]

It ain't what you got!

Thank you for your kindness. If you knew what I have, you would know why the darkness rises up in you when my intent has been pure. This also happened when my Father was here long ago. There is no universal salvation for mankind, but The Lord is still drawing man unto Himself. Perhaps, some of this group will hear His Voice and repent. This is the only way that they will know The Truth. The penalty will be worse for those who know The Way of righteousness and yet.......

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you for your kindness. If you knew what I have, you would know why the darkness rises up in you when my intent has been pure. This also happened when my Father was here long ago. There is no universal salvation for mankind, but The Lord is still drawing man unto Himself. Perhaps, some of this group will hear His Voice and repent. This is the only way that they will know The Truth. The penalty will be worse for those who know The Way of righteousness and yet.......

That may well be. Your brief comment did not communicate agreement to me.

 

[Der Alte]

I disagree and wouldn't make such a blank statement. I believe many people in different denominations knows pieces of the Truth. While I agree that many are stuck believing what their ministers teach, I find many that are stuck in their pride and unable to admit their wrong. I use to bash Universalism when I believed in Eternal Torment and made the same wrong arguments that you have many so many countless times until I gave up my pride and I still know and remember the person that continued to debate me until I GOT it and came to myself with the though that maybe they were right. And it liberated me in so many ways.

This post does not communicate to me that you ever believed what I believe. In fact, it communicates the exact opposite. Old habits die hard. My arguments have yet to be proven wrong. I wonder why the combined efforts of the UR-ites I have been in discussions with have not really addressed any of my "wrong arguments?" For example, my exegesis of "aionios."
As I have said a few times. I attended Sunday School the first time when FDR was president. I remember his death. All I remember about Sunday School was how good the red Kool aid tasted. I attended church, Sunday School sporadically for the next 2 decades or so. No single denomination.
At one point, when Truman was president, I lived in a migrant labor camp near Arvin Cal. named "Weedpatch." If you have read the book or seen the movie, The Grapes of Wrath, it ends with the Joad family living in Weedpatch. I picked cotton when I wasn't in school.
I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s, in flight school, when LBJ was president, next stop Viet Nam.
So, unlike many I did not grow up in the church and I had nothing to unlearn. I questioned everything from day one.

 

[Deafsilence]

Wrong! You tell me which one it means and I'll show how you are incorrect.

I Can't because I don't define it as Eternal, therefore, the definitions of your Eternal are not applicable. Therefore, back to you - I can understand if you want to evade it.

 

[Deafsilence]

Thank you for your kindness. If you knew what I have, you would know why the darkness rises up in you when my intent has been pure. This also happened when my Father was here long ago. There is no universal salvation for mankind, but The Lord is still drawing man unto Himself. Perhaps, some of this group will hear His Voice and repent. This is the only way that they will know The Truth. The penalty will be worse for those who know The Way of righteousness and yet.......

Question for you - Who's responsibility is if a man were to experience Eternal Torment- God or man?

If you say the man, then if it is His Responsibility then who gave him the responsibility? If you say God, and agree that God knows the end from the beginning then wouldn't that be irresponsible of God?

 

[Deafsilence]

This post does not communicate to me that you ever believed what I believe. In fact, it communicates the exact opposite. Old habits die hard. My arguments have yet to be proven wrong. I wonder why the combined efforts of the UR-ites I have been in discussions with have not really addressed any of my "wrong arguments?" For example, my exegesis of "aionios."
As I have said a few times. I attended Sunday School the first time when FDR was president. I remember his death. All I remember about Sunday School was how good the red Kool aid tasted. I attended church, Sunday School sporadically for the next 2 decades or so. No single denomination.
At one point, when Truman was president, I lived in a migrant labor camp near Arvin Cal. named "Weedpatch." If you have read the book or seen the movie, The Grapes of Wrath, it ends with the Joad family living in Weedpatch. I picked cotton when I wasn't in school.
I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s, in flight school, when LBJ was president, next stop Viet Nam.
So, unlike many I did not grow up in the church and I had nothing to unlearn. I questioned everything from day one.

You have yet to think all this through from what I can see. You never thought about how your going to address how to define the word Eternal in each verse. And we have not really even got to who's responsibility it is if you go to hell. Or yet who chooses to save you. Let's remember, that none of the Apostles chose to be saved. They never chose Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

I Can't because I don't define it as Eternal, therefore, the definitions of your Eternal are not applicable. Therefore, back to you - I can understand if you want to evade it.

I am not evading anything. I'm not here to play silly word games with someone who doesn't know a hithpael from a hat rack or an aorist from an apple. I know you don't consider "aionios" to mean eternal, so you tell me what you think it means in a few different occurrences. And OBTW show it conclusively, grammatically, in a way similar to what I have done. For example, if in a particular usage you think "aionios" means "age," then show where it is defined/described as a period less than eternal.
Keep in mind that "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun.

 

[Der Alte]

That didn't answer the question. In fact, I don't see anything that had to do with the question.

Most certainly does. Your question was, "Again, which Bible? Which translation, or transcribing?" My answer was "The Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament." I may use an English version from time to time, but I refer to the original languages for significant words.

 

[Deafsilence]

I am not evading anything. I'm not here to play silly word games with someone who doesn't know a hithpael from a hat rack or an aorist from an apple. I know you don't consider "aionios" to mean eternal, so you tell me what you think it means in a few different occurrences. And OBTW show it conclusively, grammatically, in a way similar to what I have done. For example, if in a particular usage you think "aionios" means "age," then show where it is defined/described as a period less than eternal.
Keep in mind that "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun.

Glad you asked. I actually did mention this previously. Aionios is indeed an adjective. It describes something in reference to the age in context as enduring that age. Meaning something that can possess the adjacent age or even ages. It doesn't speak to an end point at all but to a continuing point. In the Old Testament it comes from Olam which means 'concealed'. I think of it as the horizon in which what is beyond the horizon is concealed. So if something is aionios, then it speaks to something going beyond the age.

So it could be something that goes on for many ages or a single age but at least denotes something extending beyond the age in context for which is used. So when I read of Aionios punishment, I understand it as punishment extending beyond the current age. Robert Young uses the word 'age-enduring' and I think that is a very fitting way of looking at it but yet I think you need to also understanding that what it is - is something that exist also in the age that is being extended from. Now once we understand this and see the use of the word, we shouldn't necessarily afix our attention to something lasting ever more without end but rather we should afix our attention to the next age if used in that context. So to see AIONION Life, I would afix my attention to the next age which means that God is focusing our attention on the next age in which His Son shall rule. So if I have AIONION ZOE, that means I have life that is existing now and will endure the present age to extend into the next age (with length undetermined).

 

[Deafsilence]

Most certainly does. Your question was, "Again, which Bible? Which translation, or transcribing?" My answer was "The Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament." I may use an English version from time to time, but I refer to the original languages for significant words.

Which Greek New Testament? Which Hebrew Old Testament? You see it isn't that simple. The first manuscripts not really unveiled for the New Testament until about the 4th century and then a team of elders in the Church decided which books to exclude from their approved books.