Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[Deafsilence]

Unlike UR-ites and other controversial Christian groups I do not post "proof texts." A proof text is an out-of-context verse which when separated from its context seems to say something it actually does not say.
For example, UR-ites often quote 1 Cor 3:15 as if it says all mankind will be saved by having their ordinary, mundane works burned

1 Corinthians 3:15
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

I fully expect you to try to argue that is what it says. Before you do, please show me any other verse, 2 or more would be better, which states that unrighteous people will be saved by having their ordinary, mundane works burned? Needless to say, I am not holding my breath. I have read the book.

Here is a better translated from the YLT of those verses:

Mat 7:21 'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
Mat 7:23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that—I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

He says to them in the PRESENT tense that not everyone that is calling Him Lord is doing the will of the Father (Again in the Present Tense). Then it switches to the next age when Judgement will come and he will make a judgement that He never knew them. Nothing in this text shows that someone will NEVER enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Nowhere in the Bible has it ever shown that Sin couldn't be paid for. In fact, the whole reason for the sacrifices in the Old Testament was to show that it was debt. And a time is coming when those that didn't receive Mercy and repentance will have to pay their debt and will be OUTSIDE the Kingdom of Heaven until they do and after they PAY their debts then they can enter the City at the appointed time. So do they inherit the Kingdom - NO! But will they eventually enter? - OF course! God doesn't fail.

 

[Deafsilence]

You tell me. Put me in my place by quoting your favorite "proof text." Meanwhile, back in the O.T.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

I believe God will save everyone He chooses but you don't do you?

 

[Der Alte]

Here is a better translated from the YLT of those verses:
Mat 7:21 'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
Mat 7:23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that—I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
He says to them in the PRESENT tense that not everyone that is calling Him Lord is doing the will of the Father (Again in the Present Tense). Then it switches to the next age when Judgement will come and he will make a judgement that He never knew them. Nothing in this text shows that someone will NEVER enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Nowhere in the Bible has it ever shown that Sin couldn't be paid for. In fact, the whole reason for the sacrifices in the Old Testament was to show that it was debt. And a time is coming when those that didn't receive Mercy and repentance will have to pay their debt and will be OUTSIDE the Kingdom of Heaven until they do and after they PAY their debts then they can enter the City at the appointed time. So do they inherit the Kingdom - NO! But will they eventually enter? - OF course! God doesn't fail.

As I often say UR-ites search high and low to find something, anything, by anybody as long as it supports their UR assumptions/presuppositions. What makes you think YLT is translated better? Because it supports your UR assumptions/presuppositions.
I suggest you check Young out, he was self-taught in Greek, Hebrew and other languages. Would you go to a doctor or lawyer who was self-taught?
OTOH hand the lexicon I quoted represents 120-160 years of peer reviewed scholarship.

 

[Der Alte]

I believe God will save everyone He chooses but you don't do you?

Evidently you believe what you believe, and you don't care what scripture actually says, you will somehow twist it to say what you want it to.
I assume you read the passage from Jeremiah which I quoted. God CHOSE the whole house of Judah and the whole house of Israel, but they would not hear so God said, "I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

 

[Deafsilence]

As I often say UR-ites search high and low to find something, anything, by anybody as long as it supports their UR assumptions/presuppositions. What makes you think YLT is translated better? Because it supports your UR assumptions/presuppositions.
I suggest you check Young out, he was self-taught in Greek, Hebrew and other languages. Would you go to a doctor or lawyer who was self-taught?
OTOH hand the lexicon I quoted represents 120-160 years of peer reviewed scholarship.

No, it is simply that the one I quoted shows the proper tense which is Present tense for the verb. Your version could be viewed as a future tense. I have no problem with people being self-taught by the way.

 

[Deafsilence]

Evidently you believe what you believe, and you don't care what scripture actually says, you will somehow twist it to say what you want it to.
I assume you read the passage from Jeremiah which I quoted. God CHOSE the whole house of Judah and the whole house of Israel, but they would not hear so God said, "I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

Ok, so we have established that you believe that God will not save everyone He has chosen, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Der Alte]

No, it is simply that the one I quoted shows the proper tense which is Present tense for the verb. Your version could be viewed as a future tense. I have no problem with people being self-taught by the way.

Please explain how you think that significantly changes the meaning? I can understand why something written by a person who is self-taught appeals to you. It is more likely to support controversial beliefs.

 

[Der Alte]

Ok, so we have established that you believe that God will not save everyone He has chosen, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Listen up amigo. Don't even think about trying to twist what I say. What do you think about the Jeremiah 13 passage I quoted? Did God save everybody He chose? All I want to see is a simple "yes" or "no". Anything else will be an attempt to avoid and deflect.

 

[Deafsilence]

Listen up amigo. Don't even think about trying to twist what I say. What do you think about the Jeremiah 13 passage I quoted? Did God save everybody He chose? All I want to see is a simple "yes" or "no". Anything else will be an attempt to avoid and deflect.

I never asked you about Jeremiah and I'm not twisting what you said. So with that response, since my question was a direct question, your answer must be the opposite so, it is now this:

ok, so we have established that you believe that God WILL save everyone He has chosen, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Der Alte]

I never asked you about Jeremiah and I'm not twisting what you said. So with that response, since my question was a direct question, your answer must be the opposite so, it is now this:
ok, so we have established that you believe that God WILL save everyone He has chosen, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I never said you asked about Jeremiah. I did. Did God choose the whole house of Israel and Judah? Yes or no! I don't want to see anything else.
Was the whole house of Israel and Judah saved? Yes or no! I don't want to see anything else.
After you answer this. Address Matthew 7:21-23. Remember the passage you said was irrelevant.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the loincloth clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, declares the LORD, that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory, but they would not listen.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: Behold, I will fill with drunkenness all the inhabitants of this land: the kings who sit on David's throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, fathers and sons together, declares the LORD. I will not pity or spare or have compassion, that I should not destroy them.’”​

 

[Deafsilence]

I never said you asked about Jeremiah. I did. Did God choose the whole house of Israel and Judah? Yes or no! I don't want to see anything else.
Was the whole house of Israel and Judah saved? Yes or no! I don't want to see anything else.
After you answer this. Address Matthew 7:21-23. Remember the passage you said was irrelevant.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the loincloth clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, declares the LORD, that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory, but they would not listen.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: Behold, I will fill with drunkenness all the inhabitants of this land: the kings who sit on David's throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, fathers and sons together, declares the LORD. I will not pity or spare or have compassion, that I should not destroy them.’”​

Yes! Can you do that?

Edit to add. Any question in which you want a direct answer of Yes or No, let me know and I'll give you a Yes or No. I'm that confident that God will save everyone in due time.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Here's one of my favorites, Genesis 1:1, a very foundational verse: In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH. Emphasis added to point out what is surely missing: "hell."

Sure God just couldn't shake that feeling He'd forgotten to mention something!

While we're on Gen 1:1, Hebrew it's B'sheet barak elohim et ha'shamayim v'et ha'aretz.

That little 'et' is our friend the aleph-tav, aka the word, the logos, the stone the translators rejected, none other than Yeshua the messiah, as revealed in John 1:1.

So Genesis 1:1 should read 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth through Christ."

And as Yeshua is the Salvation of God, we can be assured that the beginning and the end of all creation is God's salvation.

Halleluyah!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What is fuller's soap? - it is used to make a garment white? Making a Garment white means to make a person Righteous.

Also to clean wool. So enter lowly through the Sheep's Gate, have a scrub-a-dub in the pool beneath the 5 colonnades, take up thy mat and head on up to the temple. How'd you like the Pool of Bethesda for a type of the Lake of Fire?

Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

JB Jackson's Dictionary of Scripture Proper Names translates Zerubabbel as 'melted by Babylon'. He seemed pretty active to me...though not by strength nor by power, but by the SPIRIT OF THE LORD!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Hello. I would originally post a Christian Universalist verse daily on the Tentmaker Universalism site. However, a Cloudflare error has caused the site to go down, specificially

"Table './hopebey1_tentmaker_forum/smf_messages' is marked as crashed and should be repaired"

I was posting daily Christian Universalist Bible verses and my own commentary of them on there, but since it's down, I've decided to continue doing that on this forum. There's some members from that forum that are also active on here, like FineLinen, who posts great content on there, so I figured I'd give it a shot here. They would also post daily content, which served as my inspiration for this series.

Everyone goes to Heaven, Christian Universalism.
Psalm 118:14 The LORD is my strength and my song

Excellent idea, pity the thread has become littered with polemical interference.

Still, even the detractors unknowingly contribute universalist scriptures.

Take for instance the oft-cited dreaded words of our Lord in Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:41, which our friends render as "Go to hell and burn forever!"

But these are in fact words of encouragement, entirely consistent with the Omega Plan of apokatastasis. Because the purpose of the fire is purificatory and purgative. It is the divine fire of spiritual life that destroys sin and death and delivers the new creature in Christ, repentant and ready for healing.

Behold, I am making all things anew! (Rev 21:5)

 

[FineLinen]

Excellent idea, pity the thread has become littered with polemical interference.

Still, even the detractors unknowingly contribute universalist scriptures.

Take for instance the oft-cited dreaded words of our Lord in Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:41, which our friends render as "Go to hell and burn forever!"

But these are in fact words of encouragement, entirely consistent with the Omega Plan of apokatastasis. Because the purpose of the fire is purificatory and purgative. It is the divine fire of spiritual life that destroys sin and death and delivers the new creature in Christ, repentant and ready for healing.

Behold, I am making all things anew! (Rev 21:5)

 

[HSong]

John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

I agree FineLinen. For me, it's very relieving to know the truth. That my family members who do not believe in Jesus through faith alone, will eventually come to learn the truth. That The Lord will save all people, everyone, and He will convince everyone of the truth and set all of us free.

Romans 11:32: "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all."

Even though we have all sinned against God, He will still have mercy on all of us because of His Love for all creation. All people will be saved.

 

[Deafsilence]

John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

I agree FineLinen. For me, it's very relieving to know the truth. That my family members who do not believe in Jesus through faith alone, will eventually come to learn the truth. That The Lord will save all people, everyone, and He will convince everyone of the truth and set all of us free.

Romans 11:32: "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all."

Even though we have all sinned against God, He will still have mercy on all of us because of His Love for all creation. All people will be saved.

I actually think that because people believe in Eternal Torment it appears to give them license to treat those they deem undesirable as unfit for the Kingdom of Heaven. I see this time and again where people think that the wicked should not be sorrowed for at all.

I often find myself caring much for the murderers and criminals and wondering what led them to such despair.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes! Can you do that?
Edit to add. Any question in which you want a direct answer of Yes or No, let me know and I'll give you a Yes or No. I'm that confident that God will save everyone in due time.

I just did, in the post you are responding to, twice. Your confidence is NOT supported by the words of the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:11-14 Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, 26, 28.

 

[Deafsilence]

For universalists, I often teach this fact:

God is responsible for the ultimate fate of our lives but holds us accountable for our actions because our conscience bears witness to the sins we have done.

The Bible shows this:

Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope,

So you may wonder why if God is responsible does He find fault with us? That question was asked:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, 'Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?

You see God can save anyone at any time.

Those that believe in Eternal Torment fail on so many levels:

They shift their use of the understanding of Aionios - needing to explain its meaning differently is so many different verses.

They then shift their understanding of what the Translated terms mean such as whether Eternal/Everlast means always existing/existed/will exist etc..

Then they fail on whether our salvation is based on our part. They believe that in some way, you must do something that is attributed to your ultimate fate to be saved. (Yet, Christ told his disciples that He chose them, and not that they had chosen Him).

They also defame (Blaspheme) God by lowering His power and value by presenting Him as unable to remove the obstacles or to perform the persuasion necessary to save those that are wicked. They make His work out to be in vain.

They fail to understand that God is ULTIMATELY Responsible for His Work and the outcome of that work of which everyone is a part of.

They cannot argue against the Universalist position and will often silence you, ban you, persecute you and even kill you because of it. I remember Carm wouldn't let you speak of Universalism but had no problem for atheists to make their claims.

You will see that those that believe in Eternal Torment have to resort to irrational responses and illogical conclusions when debating against Universalists. They will resort so many debate fallacies such as "Appealing to Authorities", "Stray man", "Red Herring", "Ad-Hominen", etc.. One of the things they don't realize is that often Universalists were previously adherents of Eternal Torment. I was one such person as growing up in a Roman Catholic faith, and then later understood Annihilationism through the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. I would then later be conformed to Universalism. I've never met anyone that has move from Universalism to embracing Eternal Torment. I'm convinced that if such people exist then they are very few.

 

[Deafsilence]

I just did, in the post you are responding to, twice. Your confidence is NOT supported by the words of the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:11-14 Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, 26, 28.

Let's take another crack at it. Does God save everyone He chooses? - YES or NO?