At the cross Jesus Himself said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do". How can anyone repent if they don't know that they are doing anything wrong?
The topic of this forum discussion is in regards to
Matthew 18. That is the sin we are addressing. We are not addressing a non-sin,
something someone did in ignorance. While it was a sin, it was not a sin to them who did it, because they knew not. You are changing the topic regarding knowingly sinning to a non-sin because it was done in ignorance.
So, "forgive" used by Jesus here would mean, "to overlook" because of their ignorance.
Acts 17:30 In the past
God overlooked such ignorance,
but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
But regarding your point, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Where there is no law, sin is dead. Jesus is asking the Father not hold this sin (
that they did not know) against them because of their ignorance.
Romans 7:7-8 (NIV)
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless,
I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” [
Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting.
For apart from the law, sin was dead.”
But then, how can God forgive them if they don't repent?
You answered your own question in your previous question. Where is the wrong if a person is unaware of any sin? Are they guilty? Not to God.
God does not hold people accountable, and punish people, for what we do in ignorance, so neither should I.
As part of the Godhead Jesus wouldn't/couldn't ask the Father to do something that would contradict His word... that would make God a liar. SO... Clearly at some level forgiveness can be done outside of repentance.
The answer you already made self evident.
Those who do something that would be considered sin but was done in ignorance, is not sin to them - "
Where there is no law, sin is dead."
We are to forgive, which really would mean that we don't hold that against them or we overlook.
Once the person who ignorantly did the wrong is made aware of that it was wrong, they should repent – meaning, not doing it again.
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance,
but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Those who knowingly sin against God, that person is to repent so he can be forgiven,
which is really the meaning behind sin and forgiveness in the Bible and it is the topic of this Forum discussion.
Lord Jesus taught us to do just as God does by instruction and in parable. We are to forgive those who repent first, just as God does.
I've also posted that there are 4 different words/forms of forgiveness found in the New Testament. So maybe, just maybe, it is quite possible - likely even - that some people's understanding of forgiveness is incomplete. Yet if you try to point that out this is what you get:
- Yet, your teaching on forgiveness is not according to the clear teaching of our Lord.
Blessings
You know what, I'm sick and tired of this type of thing. All this is, is a thinly veiled accusation of heresy, followed by a "Blessings" to make it feel better or something, and this is just way to common around here.
You are upset because you were caught in error, and your pride is hurt. Now you want to attack, and find ways to justify yourself, instead of apologizing, but that does not undue the wrong you did.
That is why I posted about it. Not to harm you, but to show you the wrong you are doing to others by your false teaching and accusations against others.
You never apologized for falsely accusing people of teaching error about forgiveness when actually they were correct, as if your way is the only way.
Then you act as though everyone who disagrees with you must be really dim, and thankfully you are here to teach us the right way about forgiveness as follows:
topher694 said: ↑
Wow, this all serves as a great reminder of exactly why I teach on forgiveness every single time before we do inner healing and deliverance. The misconceptions out there are remarkable.
So, I replied to your posts after “atpollard” pointed out how your post was not very nice. I replied in Message 56 as follows:
===================
atpollard said: ↑
Wow! God sure is lucky to have someone like you working with Him.
topher694 said: ↑
Well that was uncalled for.
I believe atpollard said that because you made the smug remark as follows:
topher694 said: ↑
Wow, this all serves as a great reminder of exactly why I teach on forgiveness every single time before we do inner healing and deliverance. The misconceptions out there are remarkable.
Your teaching of forgiveness, which you expressed on this board, was also flat wrong, yet you were telling them they were wrong, when in fact they were correct, and you never repented of your wrong:
royal priest said: ↑
You don't forgive someone who isn't repenting of the thing to be forgiven.
Your response:
topher694 said: ↑
And this is another example of misunderstanding of forgiveness
You respond further:
topher694 said: ↑
Forgiveness requires nothing of the offending party, including acknowledging or repenting of the wrong. This is because forgivness isn't about them, it's about you...
According to God's Word, we forgive someone who first repents.
Luke 17:3-4 [Disciples’ Literal New Testament]
3 Take heed to yourselves— If your brother sins, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times in the day, and returns to you seven times saying ‘I repent’, forgive him”.
- God forgives those who repent.
- We are to do likewise.
God does not forgive all people their sins,
We are to follow God's example.
Lord Jesus beautiful Parable in Matthew 18:21-35 illustrates this truth so plainly, that a child could understand.
Matthew 18:21-35 (WEB)
...21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
...22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
...23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
...26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
...28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
...29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
...30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
...32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
...35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Blessings
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I mean we all know there is one and only one "clear teaching of our Lord" for all scripture, am I right? So if you disagree and don't see things my way you are clearly a heretic/false teacher. I took a 6 month break from this site to get away from this kind of thing. I'm starting to realize I should have just stayed away. Sure, there are plenty of good people and I've made a few friends in the process, but any open discussion always devolves into this sort of self-righteous mud-slinging. I've got far more important things to spend my time on than this, so I'm done. I'm out. It's not worth it. Friends and sincere inquiries can feel free to PM me and I'll check my inbox from time to time, otherwise... goodbye and blessings.
Sounds like you are having a pity party.
I do hope the best for you.
Blessings