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Contradictions in the Bible?

Discussion in 'For New Christians' started by Abide with me., Feb 25, 2021.

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  1. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. Do you mean to suggest here that a Christian is forgiven for a sin even before he repents of it?
     
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The sin that separated us as his enemies, yes.

    The sin that interrupts fellowship with him must be agreed upon and turned from to restore fellowship with him.
     
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Keeping in mind you have added the two above to the text.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Forgiveness results in no benefit for the offender, until he responds with repentance.
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Verse, please?
     
  6. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    That's interesting. Thanks. It seems that you draw a hard distinction between being in fellowship with God, and being saved.

    So I understand that your view is that 1) a Christian need not need repent of his sins to be forgiven from them and saved from from the penalty of hell that he would otherwise incur, and 2) a Christian does not need to be in fellowship with God in order to be saved. Is that your view, or is my understanding incorrect?

    Alternatively, is it your view that there is no sin that a Christian can commit, that would separate him from God as an enemy, and that therefore there is nothing that need to be repented of (from the standpoint of salvation)?
     
  7. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I'll have to check on that TBH. It's just the way I've observed it in real life, and how I see the Lord. When we forgive someone who's offended us, and see their heart melt in front of us, transforming them from a hardened, defensive position to one where they know they're loved and accepted in spite of their offense, then we understand God's life-changing love, and the reason He insists on forgiveness rather than vengeance, Himself forgiving while suffering all the way through an excruciatingly painful death on a cross in human flesh at the hands of His own creation, in spite of their hatred and sin against Him. That's one reason we turn to Him, where we're attracted to the love behind that forgiveness over and against the pride and anger and vengeful attitude of this world. "We love Him because He first loved us", IOW. 1 John 4:19 Or we can choose to hang on to that darkness that causes the conflicts with and harm to each other in this world-and refuse to admit to any offense being done-or not caring in any case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    There's no benefit for the unrepentant offender whether I forgive him or not.
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Yes, Biblically, in terms of permanence and interruption there is a great difference between salvation and fellowship with God.
    Salvation is permanent, never interrupted, never lost.
    Fellowship can be interrupted, but God has so designed it that it will come to restoration.

    Repentance is a change of mind (and heart), a turning from unbelief to belief.

    There is no salvation without turning to belief in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin
    and right standing with God's justice.
    Salvation is by faith alone, which is not to say faith doesn't bring/cause change.

    A saved Christian can grieve the Holy Spirit and impair his fellowship with God in habitual (not-turned-from) sin.
    His fellowship is restored when he agrees with God (confesses) that he is in sin and turns from it (repents).

    God does not lose his own; i.e., those of true faith of the born-again. No one can snatch them out of his hand, including themselves.
    God has changed their hearts, they are miserable when out of fellowship with him, which works to bring them back.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I don't believe I said otherwise.
     
  11. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Good, we are in agreement.
     
  12. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Glory be!!! LOL We'll see if we can keep that up
     
  13. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    At the cross Jesus Himself said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do". How can anyone repent if they don't know that they are doing anything wrong? But then, how can God forgive them if they don't repent? As part of the Godhead Jesus wouldn't/couldn't ask the Father to do something that would contradict His word... that would make God a liar. SO... Clearly at some level forgiveness can be done outside of repentance. I've also posted that there are 4 different words/forms of forgiveness found in the New Testament. So maybe, just maybe, it is quite possible - likely even - that some people's understanding of forgiveness is incomplete. Yet if you try to point that out this is what you get:

    You know what, I'm sick and tired of this type of thing. All this is, is a thinly veiled accusation of heresy, followed by a "Blessings" to make it feel better or something, and this is just way to common around here. I mean we all know there is one and only one "clear teaching of our Lord" for all scripture, am I right? So if you disagree and don't see things my way you are clearly a heretic/false teacher. I took a 6 month break from this site to get away from this kind of thing. I'm starting to realize I should have just stayed away. Sure, there are plenty of good people and I've made a few friends in the process, but any open discussion always devolves into this sort of self-righteous mud-slinging. I've got far more important things to spend my time on than this, so I'm done. I'm out. It's not worth it. Friends and sincere inquiries can feel free to PM me and I'll check my inbox from time to time, otherwise... goodbye and blessings.
     
  14. CMDRExorcist

    CMDRExorcist Theology Explorer Supporter

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    Just my $0.000002 cents... You can forgive someone but still despise the way they act. It's an understanding that they have a personal sin against God, not you. You forgive them for whatever they've done to you and unless they're abusive or dangerous to you, leave their own sins to be handled by God.
     
  15. CMDRExorcist

    CMDRExorcist Theology Explorer Supporter

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    I think this pretty much sums it up. :thumbsup:
     
  16. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Like in many examples, there are examples of contradictions in the Bible, you quoted the Matthew 18:35

    "This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

    But when we come to the apostle Paul, here is what he said

    Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

    The key to reconcile these 2 contradicting verses is to understand whom and when it was written to.

    Jesus was speaking to Israel under the Law of Moses, where God's forgiveness is conditional upon them forgiving others. John repeats this advice in 1 John 4 to Israel

    20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

    But Paul was writing to the Body of Christ, who are all saved under the gospel of grace given to Paul (Romans 16:25). In that gospel, we are already forgiven of all our sins thru the cross (1 Cor 15:1-4). That forgiveness is not conditional to whether we forgive others.

    But because of that forgiveness, Paul commands us to now forgive everyone else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  17. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The topic of this forum discussion is in regards to Matthew 18. That is the sin we are addressing. We are not addressing a non-sin, something someone did in ignorance. While it was a sin, it was not a sin to them who did it, because they knew not. You are changing the topic regarding knowingly sinning to a non-sin because it was done in ignorance.

    So, "forgive" used by Jesus here would mean, "to overlook" because of their ignorance.

    Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance,
    but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

    But regarding your point, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Where there is no law, sin is dead. Jesus is asking the Father not hold this sin (that they did not know) against them because of their ignorance.

    Romans 7:7-8 (NIV)
    7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” [Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.”

    You answered your own question in your previous question. Where is the wrong if a person is unaware of any sin? Are they guilty? Not to God.

    God does not hold people accountable, and punish people, for what we do in ignorance, so neither should I.

    The answer you already made self evident.

    Those who do something that would be considered sin but was done in ignorance, is not sin to them - "Where there is no law, sin is dead."

    We are to forgive, which really would mean that we don't hold that against them or we overlook.

    Once the person who ignorantly did the wrong is made aware of that it was wrong, they should repent – meaning, not doing it again.

    Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

    Those who knowingly sin against God, that person is to repent so he can be forgiven, which is really the meaning behind sin and forgiveness in the Bible and it is the topic of this Forum discussion.

    Lord Jesus taught us to do just as God does by instruction and in parable. We are to forgive those who repent first, just as God does.

    You are upset because you were caught in error, and your pride is hurt. Now you want to attack, and find ways to justify yourself, instead of apologizing, but that does not undue the wrong you did.

    That is why I posted about it. Not to harm you, but to show you the wrong you are doing to others by your false teaching and accusations against others.

    You never apologized for falsely accusing people of teaching error about forgiveness when actually they were correct, as if your way is the only way.

    Then you act as though everyone who disagrees with you must be really dim, and thankfully you are here to teach us the right way about forgiveness as follows:

    topher694 said:
    Wow, this all serves as a great reminder of exactly why I teach on forgiveness every single time before we do inner healing and deliverance. The misconceptions out there are remarkable.


    So, I replied to your posts after “atpollard” pointed out how your post was not very nice. I replied in Message 56 as follows:

    ===================
    atpollard said:
    Wow! God sure is lucky to have someone like you working with Him. [​IMG]

    topher694 said:

    Well that was uncalled for.

    I believe atpollard said that because you made the smug remark as follows:

    topher694 said:
    Wow, this all serves as a great reminder of exactly why I teach on forgiveness every single time before we do inner healing and deliverance. The misconceptions out there are remarkable.

    Your teaching of forgiveness, which you expressed on this board, was also flat wrong, yet you were telling them they were wrong, when in fact they were correct, and you never repented of your wrong:

    royal priest said:
    You don't forgive someone who isn't repenting of the thing to be forgiven.

    Your response:
    topher694 said:

    And this is another example of misunderstanding of forgiveness

    You respond further:
    topher694 said:
    Forgiveness requires nothing of the offending party, including acknowledging or repenting of the wrong. This is because forgivness isn't about them, it's about you...

    According to God's Word, we forgive someone who first repents.

    Luke 17:3-4 [Disciples’ Literal New Testament]
    3 Take heed to yourselves— If your brother sins, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him.
    4 And if he sins against you seven times in the day, and returns to you seven times saying ‘I repent’, forgive him”.

    • God forgives those who repent.
    • We are to do likewise.
    God does not forgive all people their sins,
    We are to follow God's example.

    Lord Jesus beautiful Parable in Matthew 18:21-35 illustrates this truth so plainly, that a child could understand.

    Matthew 18:21-35 (WEB)
    ...21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
    ...22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
    ...23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
    ...26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
    ...28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
    ...29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
    ...30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
    ...32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
    ...35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

    Blessings

    ===================

    Sounds like you are having a pity party.

    I do hope the best for you.

    Blessings
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  18. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the explanation. I've had a fair number of conversations with Protestants, but actually haven't run into one who talks of "Fellowship" and "Non-Fellowship" as distinct categories.

    What is your understanding of the concept that you refer to as "fellowship"? How would you define that fellowship, or what does it practically entail? It seems that being "out of fellowship" is kind of an abstract term that you use to refer to the state of a "saved" Christian who has willfully and knowingly committed grave sins against God, but who has not yet repented and turned back to the Lord. Generally I would refer to folks such as these as "damned to hell" until they repent and turn back to the Lord.

    >>Fellowship can be interrupted, but God has so designed it that it will come to restoration.

    OK. I think I understand you. The idea is that for people who are in the "saved" category but who fall out of "fellowship," God will force these people ultimately to repent, so that they are restored to "fellowship" before they die. The folks who do not repent and who do not come back into fellowship, in fact were never in the "saved" category in the first place. Ultimately there is not any significant long-term consequence of being out of fellowship with the Lord, for the saved Christian, because God will inevitably force those people into Heaven. I think this is standard OSAS, but just spoken about in a slightly different way. Is that a fair characterization of your viewpoint?
     
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  19. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Well having been a victim of churches selfishly not obeying the first verses you listed. I have to say your just misunderstanding them. What that is referring to is financial fraud or sexual sins. So if a brother commits an act of fraud or molests some teenager. Sure you go to him first. But if that doesn’t work you bring a few more witnesses. If that doesn’t work then the whole church. And if that does work you publicly excommunicate him and I’ll add tell all the other local churches about him. Why? Because he’ll keep conning other church members and if you don’t tell the other churches he’ll just move on to them. It’s so sad when churches are supposed to be setting the standard. They just unbelievably selfishly quietly let some sexual predator go because it was just to much trouble personal trouble to the church “leadership” to publicly expose him. So he could just move on to the next church and go the same thing. So dad that the government had to pass laws forcing churches to report sexual predators to the authorities. They should have been all over that. The government should have never had to make a law about that. So you get these crooks and predators going from one church to another. One missionary organization to another. Because church “leadership” is only thinking about themselves and the trouble this will cause them and they might lose some members and God does not want that yada yada.

    THAT MY FREIND IS WHY JESUS REQUIRES THAT.
     
  20. Sheila Davis

    Sheila Davis Member

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    There is a difference in Association and forgiveness.
    One can forgive but not associate, for continual association with a person such as that brings about continual problems. Proverbs 22:24-25 _ Romans 16:17 _ Titus 3:10 _ 1st Corinthians 15:33 _ are some of the scriptures that states to be separate from certain type s of people.
    2nd Timothy 3:1-5 ..... Verse 5 - having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2nd Thessalonians 3:6 now we command you, brethren in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the Traditions which he received of us.

    So yes forgive meaning don't hold a grudge but keep away because that person will continue to tempt you into anger an ungodly Behavior.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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