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Featured Conditional salvation??

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dorothy Mae, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

    United States
    Yes, it means that.

    Accepting the Word of God and, later, neglecting it also means that. Consider the stony & thorny grounds of Matthew 13.
  2. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

    New Zealand
    Absolutley .all salvation is conditional upon obedience to the Good news of Jesus.

    The fact that God has already done everything required to make Salvation available to All... Is the Grace of God.

    Then upon hearing this good news of what he has already done.. To become flesh to die on the cross for our sin to rise again from the dead...
    We must then follow the instructions to avail ourselves of that grace.
    These obedient actions are called the action of faith.
    Thus it is written .by grace...Through faith ..

    By hearing what christ has already done
    Then Doing what he says to do
    We will be saved.
    Hearing alone will never save.

    Disobedience is the basis of all sin.
    To be saved from sin we must cease disobedience
    And begin learning OBEDIENCE..

    Its all conditional.
    There is no such thing as a non conditional covenant between two parties.
  3. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    All you've got to do, to be sure of your salvation, is place your faith on what Jesus did on the cross, and repent of your sins. Your faith, is what will be the root and the reason you're saved, but the fruit of your salvation, and the proof of it, will be how you conduct yourself after. There should be a noticeable difference between the you before, and the you after.

    Back in Ezekiel He tells you what someone who is saved, would do:

    5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

    6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

    7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

    8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

    9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

    In verse 9, the word "statutes" is chuqqah (h2708 חֻקָּה chuqqah), which is always speaking of either a single law or ordinance, or a law (singular) as in a noun. As if to say, "the law of...", or " the statute of ....". Which, the law of God, is found in the first five books of the bible.

    In the same verse, verse 9, the word "judgement", is the word mishpat (H4941 מִשְׁפָּט mishpat), which means just as it says, judgement. So, the judgement of God, found in the first five books of the bible.

    So, in verse 9, He's saying that "the one who acts righteously, and walks in my law(s) and my judgements, he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God". All of those things mentioned in the preceding verses, were things He wrote in His Law (the first five books of the bible).
  4. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    Jesus said lots of things about how we're supposed to act, and about salvation. I wouldn't pick just one thing out and make it the only criterion. But we're certainly required to forgive.
  5. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    Why would “unconditional Love” have to exclude justice?

    My God is totally just/fair and yet extends unconditional Love and forgiving Love to everyone.

    If the prodigal son does not return home the father still Loves him.

    The “problem” is not with God lacking the highest imaginable degree of Love, but in our willingness to humbly accept that Love as pure charity the way it is given.

    Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:

    Matt. 18: 21-35

    Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

    I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

    This Parable come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.

    So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?

    I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

    Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

    Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

    The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

    The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer to all other humans we will relate to or just other Christian brothers?)

    The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

    The servant is asking for “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”? (That is impossible.)

    If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

    If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

    Is there any other debt since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

    Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

    In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

    Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

    Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.

    Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).

    I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?

    If you want to discuss further let’s start with what we do agree with.

    Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:

    1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

    2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

    3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

    4. The wicked servant is a sinner?

    5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

    6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

    7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

    8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?

    If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?
  6. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    He never said this about Salvation. Was He before that talking about Salvation? Its clearly written if you just call on the name of the lord you will be saved. Now.. to say this is about salvation.. I can not find that. And how can it be? When He was talking about this .. He had not even died yet.

    Then when He did.. and rose.. He as is written behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. So..Christ didn't cover sins...there gone. So.. if you don't forgive what is He remembering? What your talking about what was written before and after? Easy to see..
  7. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

    Sort of. In our own eyes I would say yes. In a Spiritual sense (which is what Jesus always alluded to or most of the time) it's warranted. Meaning it's justified. Why? Because everything we do on earth is mirrored in heaven and vise versa. If you read Revelation the mirror/reflection is depicted on earth with the war in heaven between God and the fallen. Genesis is also a great reflection as well. Interestingly, from beginning to end.
    Matthew 6:14-15

    The first step in Salvation is recognizing who Jesus Christ is. Second is to repent of your sins to receive Christ into your life. To me that speaks loudly that repentance is very much a requirement to be forgiven as we must confess:
    1 John 1:5-10

    That passage is actually another one of those very well depiction of a mirror/reflection.

    It doesn't matter what was done. The most vital thing we can do is forgive, however that doesn't mean that what wrong thing was done doesn't need healing, the Bible does go into this as well. But, we must have the strength of Jesus Christ to forgive.
    Colossians 3:12-17

    God's Word brings healing to the mind, body and soul: Psalm 103:2-3, Proverbs 16:24

    Dire, if one is to be quite serious about Jesus Christ being our God and Saviour.
    John 14:6

    Considering that Jesus Christ is the reward, to lose Him would be devastating.
    Matthew 6:21
  8. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

    United States
    I say to look at your own life. When you have had bitterness towards another or have been wronged by somebody, when you did not immediately forgave them, does Father speak to you and guide you to forgiving that person?
  9. WilliamBo

    WilliamBo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Yes, we have to forgive everyone. "Loss of rewards" is a doctrine that will land many in hell. It makes you believe it's ok to sin and be lukewarm. Absolutely not true. God says we are to be holy, as He is holy
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    It is so odd why people fight the Bible.
    Matthew 6:15 means what it says.
    If you don’t forgive, you will not be forgiven.
    Whenever the Bible talks about forgiveness involving God, it’s always in relation to salvation.

    For show me an example in the Bible where God does not forgive and yet they have salvation.
  11. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    Thank you for being polite. I am sorry you do not see the inconsistancy. I know it is hard to reconsider the OSAS position with its promise of salvation from hell no matter what you do in this life. I hope that you do not "neglect your salvation" as enough neglect and it is lost. Gifts can be lost. Seals can be broken. Future sins are not forgiven, only ones confessed and repented of once the believer is aware of them.

    His blessings upon your way.
  12. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    Easier said than done. If you listen to one Christian complain about how they were treated by Christians, you will see that forgiving those who offend you is difficult and goes against our desire. We actually do not forgive because we were forgiven unless we work at it, unless we choose to do so. Nursing our complaints is much easier and more common.
  13. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    This is all well and good if that is a motivation to forgive. But when one does not "feel" Godly love and charity, etc., one needs to be motivated by the lesser reason, that is one will not be forgiven of one's sins, according to Jesus. Jesus actually said point blank that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. His words disagree with yours.

    I know the full of love and godly charity sounds really nice and there are times when some of us reach that plateau for a while. But most of us get angry and/or hurt when others do us a wrong. We do not respond with feelings of love and charity. Just listen to Christians who complain about others.

    So the warning that one needs to forgive or else is actually the rod of his correction. There is the staff to guide as in feeling like forgiving because one is in a godly charity mood and the rod is there to strongly insist that one forgive in case one is angry or resentful or hurt. We are both. If one is blessed enough to easily overlook an offense with no hurt at all, then it is easy. But we are not let off of forgiving others when such a godly mood is not upon us.

    "Forgive or you will not be forgiven" is pretty clear. But I can understand why you prefer "we should forgive because God have forgiven us" without any warning if we don't. Forgiveness is sometimes pretty hard to give.

    If I looked around here some, I can see that forgiveness of others might be rather rare. If you have a theology that some disagree with, they insult you, not forgive you. If you talk about certain theologies that the mods disagree with, they do not forgive but close down the discussion. There is unforgiveness practiced by the moderators who, in my view, ought to give every "post sinner" a chance to repent and change their post. That is actually the Christian way. Talk to the offender and give them a chance to learn and change. Not here. They get the ax. If I were a mod I would tell the offender their post was reported and they need to change it. They have 1 week and here is what needs to be changed. (I have forgiven them though. Just wish they would practice charity.)
  14. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

    United States
    I rest assured that my salvation is secured in Christ, and that even when I fail Christ he never fails me. His blood has purchased my eternal redemption, paid in full, and has made me a child of God.

    If you want to feel unsure of where you are with God in the next hour, day, or year that is entirely up to you. If you want to see yourself trying to keep eternal life by your own merit, that's entirely up to you.

    I'm going to continue to stand in awe of such a salvation that I will in turn, by the change inside me and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, continue to grow and follow Jesus to the death of my own cross I carry in this life.
  15. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Paul was talking about being disqualified for service, not salvation. None of us are qualified to be saved.

    Paul wasn't talking about losing salvation. That's because being "grafted" into tree isn't a metaphor for salvation, so being cut off isn't about losing salvation. It is about participation in the blessings relative to the commonwealth of Israel.

    Those believers who are not faithful in this life, who liver for their own agenda and not for the kingdom will not go to Hell, but they will forfeit all rewards in the kingdom, and they will experience judgement in that regard. Paul refers to those who are saved as by fire when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ. It is important to remember that the parable of the talents is not about salvation, but about service and "outer darkness" in this particular context isn't Hell.

    Evil servants, in that parable, represent unbelievers, not believers.
  16. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    I very much appreciate the gentleness in your tone and thank you. I will only address the middle paragraph as you do not understand how it is for those of us who take the warnings to endure seriously. Please maintain that response even if the below challenges you. I am only telling the truth as the Holy Spirit bears witness.

    I have walked with the Lord since childhood and never experience a moment of uncertainity as to my eternal destiny, when I thought about it at all, which is frankly speaking, rare. I know I am his because I follow his leading, mostly, during my days, or at least some of my days. I know His voice and I follow HIm for the most part. (Sometimes I am unsure it is him and sometimes I do not follow at that moment.) My relationship with Him is deep and vital and guides me. If I were to wonder about my eternal destiny, I could just ask Him. He would tell me. After some 40 years of doing this, I know HIm as Jesus describes in John 17:3

    So my "eternal security" is because I know God. I understand Him as well. I know why He does what He does. This was the promise given to the prophets in these days. Everyone can know the Lord, not just the prophets. I am one of those. (But the price is high. It only comes with obedience, but that is another subject.)
  17. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Forgiveness and salvation are two different things. Jesus isn't saying that if we fail to forgive, we will lose salvation. He is saying that we will not experience the peace of God's forgiveness so long as we harbor unforgiveness toward others. If salvation depends on us forgiving everyone, it would make us and not Jesus, responsible for our salvation. And to be honest, can any of us say with 100% certainty that we have forgiven everyone in our entire lives that have done us wrong? Do we want to make our eternal destiny conditional upon our own efforts and merit in that regard?

    Jesus is not talking about salvation, but about forgiveness and our experience of God's forgiveness in our lives on a daily basis.
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    The only comment I want to make is that your signature tells of a Christian life that your theology totally destroys. Every warning including the OP, that of if we do not forgive others we will not be forgiven, is relegated to mere rewards afterwards. The motivation to do what your signature says is gone. I mean, do you know what those rewards are? Are they worth the sacrifice the signature lays out if no one knows what they are?
  19. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Wrong. My signature is talking about the need to actually live the Christian life. Nothing I said contradicts that.
    My point is that the forgiveness that Jesus is referring is about the daily experience of forgiveness. Jesus is not saying that God is going to take away the forgiveness we were granted when we were saved. We need to forgive others on a daily basis in order to being forgiven by God on a daily basis, to experience His peace. Salvation is not what Jesus had in view. I don't think you really understand my signature in the light of this conversation and in the light what I am talking about.
  20. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    So what is salvation from, if forgivness of sins and salvation are two different things? What are you saved from?

    Does Jesus decide who is saved and does it all? Do we need to believe? If salvation depends upon believing, does that make us and not Jesus responsible for our salvation? Or is he making us beieve? Why doesn't he make everyone believe since the Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish?

    I will tell you how it works for those who hear his voice and follow Jesus. We rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us and show us our sin, real sins done. We also rely on the Holy Spirit to convict us if we have not forgiven others. We ask Him to show us any unforgiveness or sins. "See if there be any secret sins in me" is the prayer we offer. And we trust Him to do so. So no, we are not relying upon ourselves but the HS. And no, we do not require us to have confessed 100% of all sins nor 100% of all unforgiveness. We rely on God to show us and we aim not to "quench the Holy Spirit" when he does. This is how it works.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019