• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Conditional salvation??

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dorothy Mae, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I did not say it contradicts it. I said it destroys it. There is no motivation in OSAS to do what your signature says. Those are lofty words if one wants rewards in the next life and is prepared to give up rewards in this life for them, the former being unknown.
    Do you understand your signature, frankly speaking? Next time explain it if you think that instead of insulting those who disagree with you.

    YOu have destroyed the warning JEsus gave about harboring unforgiveness. You have turned it into missing the peace of God, if one wants that. The parable is about a man who WAS forgiven whose forgiveness was REMOVED and he had to go to jail for not paying his debts. The forgiveness was REMOVED. That is exactly what JEsus is saying. But you destroy the warning by deciding to change to not have God's peace. There are those who prefer to nurse their grievences rather than experience peace. For them, the warning says nothing worth listening to. Your theology destroys the warning by substituting the reward of peace if one obeys and forgives.
     
  2. SeventhFisherofMen

    SeventhFisherofMen Invisible Hero Supporter

    217
    +169
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    To answer your question yes you need to forgive in order to be forgiven, that is a condition clearly stated to be followed by Jesus. And to not be forgiven by Jesus and to not be given mercy means to not make it to Heaven, not a simple loss of rewords but rather a loss of salvation.

    P.S. once saved always saved doctrine does not apply to Christianity and is not a thing anywhere mentioned in the Bible.
     
  3. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

    530
    +269
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    Hell. I am saved from Hell. But what Jesus is talking about refers to our sanctification, not our justification. Do you know for 100% certain that you have forgiven everyone in your life? Do you want to your entire eternal destiny to rest on YOUR efforts, or do you prefer your eternal destiny to rest upon the work of Christ on the cross?? Upon what does your assurance of salvation rest? You or works or Jesus' sacrifice?

    Yes. Salvation = Jesus + 0.

    Salvation doesn't depend on believing. It depends on sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It depends on Jesus, not us. We simply receive His gift of eternal life purchased for us on the cross, by faith and faith is more than just "believing."

    If the argument is that salvation depends on having forgiven others, there is nothing less than 100% that will do because God doesn't compromise or make exceptions. You are either trusting yourself for salvation and depending on your works, or you are trusting Jesus for salvation. Forgiveness is the product of our salvation; if we are truly saved, forgiveness will be in operation in our lives. It will come out in our daily interactions with others.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  4. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

    530
    +269
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    No, you really don't understand the signature and you don't understand salvation, as is clear from your posts. OSAS is predicated on a person who is genuinely saved and living for Jesus. Those who are saved will demonstrate it by their works.

    My signature is about living for Jesus even at personal cost and only those who have full assurance of faith can do that. Those who think their salvation depends upon their own efforts continually fail because they are trusting in self and not trusting Jesus. Jesus will not share glory with anyone and either you trusting in Him 100% or you are trusting in your works for salvation.

    No, I didn't. Those who are saved won't harbor unforgiveness. What I destroyed is the ability of people like you to put others under condemnation and tell them that their salvation depends on themselves and not on Jesus.

    I have not destroyed that warning at all because it is not about losing salvation. It is about losing the blessings of forgiveness and the experience of God's forgiveness and falling rather, under the judgement of God. God judges us as Christians, in this life, if we are disobedient. He doesn't revoke our salvation.

    If God revokes our salvation, He is not faithful to His Word.
     
  5. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Well, I explained this is a different post above, but I am glad to do it again. I know the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. That is how I know I am his. When he tells me I need to forgive, I am to do that and get his help. This has been successful and is still a project for some really evil people in my world. Me eternal destiny lays on my knowing God and walking with HIm in fellowship. Do you think that is a "work?"
    You will probably not see the contradiction in the above but I will try to point it out. First you say, "salvation doesn't depend on believing" then you say "we simply receive His give of eternal life ....by faith" which you play with words by deciding arbitrarily that faith is not believing. The dictionary will tell you it is. But what is the difference between faith and believing other than one is a noun and the other a verb? If it depends on Jesus, why do we need to do anything at all including "receive by faith?" Why did none of the apostles say that salvation doesn't depend upon believing? Why did Paul tell the jailer he needed to repent and believe if it all depends upon Jesus?

    Your theology leaves you with inconsistancies. I do understand them and see them clearly. You likely want to make it all Jesus but know that you have to insert a small print clause that we need to believe/receive by faith making us indeed responsible for some part. You want Jesus to be solely responsible for you not going to hell but cannot help admit that something on your part plays a role.
    I know God and He is not like that. You are painting Him and unjust and unmerciful. We are responsible for the sins He makes us aware of.
    I am not trusting in myself for salvation but depend upon God who I am in relationship with and who speaks to me frequently and naturally about my behaviour and words. I am his sheep and know His voice and follow Him. If I wondered about my salvation, which I just about never think about, I would just ask Him. He would tell me. And I have cultivated that sensitivity until I know His voice.
     
  6. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

    +2,568
    United States
    Reformed
    Single
    US-Republican
    Is it possible that our obedience is the consequence of salvation, while the call for endurance separates the saved from the unsaved?
     
  7. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Ah, so works MUST be there in order to know you are saved? Is that right? Do you see the problem with this?
    There are those OSAS believers who think they are 100% saved no matter how they behave as evidenced in their lives and they think they have full assurance of faith. What do you say to them?

    And those who love God are the ones who can live for Jesus even at personal cost. Jesus said those who love Him keep his teaching, not those who have full assurance of faith.
    Frankly speaking, this is a common OSAS straw argument. I have walked with the Lord and been in many Christian fellowships and have never met anyone like this. I doubt many if any think their salvation depends upon their own efforts outside of the JWs and the Catholics.
    So no one in your church ever complains about anyone else? No one is ever bitter? You never complain about others or are angry at how others treat or speak of you? Ever?
    Sounds like you are harboring unforgiveness towards those who do not believe OSAS. You seem to have kept score of those non-OSASers and resent their words. Hmmmm
    That is what OSASers believe, for sure.
    Actually, he would need to do so to be faithful to his word as JEsus said if we do not forgive we will not be forgiven, not we will miss the reward of peace. God will use HIs word, but other parts of it, to those who trusted in a theology men invented to ease their consciences and assure them of Heaven no matter how they behave.
     
  8. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    This is a very good question and I need to think about it some. I need to get off for now, but I will consider this. Excellent point I must say!!
     
  9. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,072
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    That's a wonderful bit of wordsmithing, but you're not convincing me. I prefer to go with the plain language of what the writer is communicating.
     
  10. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

    530
    +269
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    I am not wordsmithing. You ripped several verses out of their immediate context and applied them to an issue they were not meant to address. So you were not going by the plain meaning. You were assigning a meaning to them that they do not have.
     
  11. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I agree! Nicely put. Thank you!
     
  12. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No he/she did not. You were wordsmithing as well as editing out the scriptures you don’t like.

    Paul was concerned about the salvation of men primarily, not the being fit for service. That is changing his words.
     
  13. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,072
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    I assigned the meaning that the writers intended at the time they were written. You then bent the meaning to suit your own tradition.
     
  14. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes He does. But it’s always my choice as to whether I want to release my complaint about them or fuel it.
     
  15. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Thought about it. Obedience is both a consequence and a choice. We cannot simply choose to obey without the HS, but neither does the HS override the will or desire.

    Of course only the saved even want to endure or “endure” means anything. The point is the “saved” who fail to endure are no longer saved, according to Jesus.
     
  16. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

    +662
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    How do you know when you are "fully" saved rather than 1/2 or even 1/3?
     
  17. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

    +662
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Have we considered that salvation is the covenant with God; whereas, forgiving others is about the relationship with God?
     
  18. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,077
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Single
    We don't know until judgement day. That's why we must "believe to the end".

    The covenant os about obeying. Salvation is about our relationship with Him.

    Mathew 7:21-23

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    This is about our relationship with Him. I think though, also, and possibly more so, that this verse is directed towards false prophets that use Jesus's name for their own selfish reasons. But it shows us that we must know Him to enter the kingdom of heaven and be saved.
     
  19. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    +1,215
    Catholic
    Married
    It means that the gospel /New Covenant is about change, not merely forgiveness of sin but change-in us-towards righteousness, defined primarily as love (the very image of God), wrought by Him as we work out our salvation with He who works in us, who places His law in our minds and writes them on our hearts as we abide in Him and He in us. If we're not involved in and oriented towards and overall growing in this righteousness, this justice, then were not His. This is what faith is meant to lead to, this is how faith justifies, faith itself being the first step in or act of justice for man. Faith is the establishment of or entering into communion with God.

    Jesus Christ reconciles man with God. Then we're expected to respond, to follow, to act, with His help.
     
  20. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +887
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Lots of the time we do not fully realize what all we have been forgiven of so: "...he that is forgiven little loves little..." The difficulty is in humbly accepting God's love in the form of forgiveness as pure sacrificial charity.
    I am personally responsible for Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered.
     
Loading...