Conception of Hell

[Der Alte]

Have you ever noticed that it is usually the false religions that scream the loudest, "The age old false religion dodge!"

And if anyone questions you, you just get worse.

Sounds like "Neener, neener, neener, I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" to me. Show me one time where I ever tried to cop-out claiming that a passage was figurative simply because it contradicts my point of view? OTOH how many times have you done so? How much of scripture do you claim is figurative solely because if it is literal it contradicts you? Matt 25:41, 46, Mar 9:43-48, Luke 16:19-31, Rev 14:11

 

[Timothew]

Sounds like "Neener, neener, neener, I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" to me. Show me one time where I ever tried to cop-out claiming that a passage was figurative simply because it contradicts my point of view? OTOH how many times have you done so? How much of scripture do you claim is figurative solely because if it is literal it contradicts you? Matt 25:41, 46, Mar 9:43-48, Luke 16:19-31, Rev 14:11

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

[Der Alte]

Sounds like "Neener, neener, neener, I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" to me. Show me one time where I ever tried to cop-out claiming that a passage was figurative simply because it contradicts my point of view? OTOH how many times have you done so? How much of scripture do you claim is figurative solely because if it is literal it contradicts you? Isa 14:10-11. Ezek 32;18-31, Matt 25:41, 46, Mar 9:43-48, Luke 16:19-31, Rev 14:11

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Meaningless without context. I agree completely. When a person sins they die spiritually, as Adam did, and are separated from God unless/until they repent and are saved. This says nothing about a person after judgment!

 

[Timothew]

Meaningless without context. I agree completely. When a person sins they die spiritually, as Adam did, and are separated from God unless/until they repent and are saved. This says nothing about a person after judgment!

So you are taking the passage figuratively because it contradicts your point of view, it doesn't say the wages of sin is spiritual death, this is your figurative addition.
neener neener neener.

 

[Der Alte]

So you are taking the passage figuratively because it contradicts your point of view, it doesn't say the wages of sin is spiritual death, this is your figurative addition.
neener neener neener.

Can you show me any incident in the NT where anyone physically died the instant they sinned? No? Therefore the meaning of "the wages of sin is death" is the death depicted in Gen 2, spiritual death. Unlike you I do not interpret scripture arbitrarily to fit assumptions/presuppositions. I have been a Christian for more than 4 decades you are going to play the devil catching me out. You would be better served if you spent your time trying to reconcile, rather than trying to explain away, inconvenient scripture.

 

[Mr Dave]

Acts 5:1-11

Paraphrase - ""You sinned by lying to God". When he heard these words, Ananias died."

 

[Timothew]

Can you show me any incident in the NT where anyone physically died the instant they sinned? No? Therefore the meaning of "the wages of sin is death" is the death depicted in Gen 2, spiritual death. Unlike you I do not interpret scripture arbitrarily to fit assumptions/presuppositions. I have been a Christian for more than 4 decades you are going to play the devil catching me out. You would be better served if you spent your time trying to reconcile, rather than trying to explain away, inconvenient scripture.

I'm Not trying to trick you, I'm trying to challenge you. Some of your thinking, sir (and I respect your 40 years in His Service) is a little disorganized. I'm sorry.

Eternal Torment is not the conclusion that you arrive at by reading the scripture, unless you have previously determined that it is so.

 

[Timothew]

Sounds like "Neener, neener, neener, I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" to me. Show me one time where I ever tried to cop-out claiming that a passage was figurative simply because it contradicts my point of view? OTOH how many times have you done so? How much of scripture do you claim is figurative solely because if it is literal it contradicts you? Matt 25:41, 46, Mar 9:43-48, Luke 16:19-31, Rev 14:11

Mark 9:43-48?
This is literal advice? I haven't met many pastors who advise taking Mark 9:43-48 literally.

 

[rstrats]

Der Alter,

re: "It says, ‘the smoke of their torment’ if those in the flames instantly die the smoke is no longer theirs, it is just smoke."

That would be incorrect. The smoke is indeed a product of the individual’s death. How can it change to being otherwise?
　
　
re: "And this clause is immediately followed by ‘and they have no rest day or night’ All part of one thought."
　
In order to make that connection you have to WANT to believe that the fate of the unsaved is everlasting torment. Because you WANT to believe in everlasting torment you are assuming that the "forever and forever" is also referring to the "torment" as well as the "no rest, day or night". But you don’t KNOW that it is. The construction of the passage does not REQUIRE that particular interpretation. There simply is nothing in the construction of the passage that makes it absolutely necessary to interpret it that way. It is literally only saying that "smoke" rises forever.

I just don’t understand your bloodthirsty desire to see folks horribly tortured forever because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t or couldn’t meet certain requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being

 

[Der Alte]

re: "It says, ‘the smoke of their torment’ if those in the flames instantly die the smoke is no longer theirs, it is just smoke."

That would be incorrect. The smoke is indeed a product of the individual’s death. How can it change to being otherwise?　

Nobody possesses anything after they die. You might have a sliver of an argument if the verse ended after "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever" But we both know John did not end his thought there he continued all one sentence, "and they have no rest day or night"
　

re: "And this clause is immediately followed by ‘and they have no rest day or night’ All part of one thought."
　
In order to make that connection you have to WANT to believe that the fate of the unsaved is everlasting torment. Because you WANT to believe in everlasting torment you are assuming that the "forever and forever" is also referring to the "torment" as well as the "no rest, day or night". But you don’t KNOW that it is. The construction of the passage does not REQUIRE that particular interpretation. There simply is nothing in the construction of the passage that makes it absolutely necessary to interpret it that way. It is literally only saying that "smoke" rises forever.

Absolutely wrong. Spoken from post 19th century indoctrination. Greek just like English has rules of grammar. There is everything in the passage which absolutely requires the interpretation which the church has understood for 2000 years +/-. The conjunction "and" joins thoughts and ideas. If John had not wanted the two clauses to relate to each other he would not have written what he did. Not my fault that people refuse to see that.

Once again.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

"The smoke of their [plural pronoun] torment," this refers to more than one person. "ascends up forever and ever" if the source of smoke no longer exists it soon dissipates. Watch smoke from anything it will start to dissipate at some point. Only if something is burning does the smoke continue to ascend.

The vs. continues "and they [plural pronoun] have no rest" The conjunction "and" referring back to someone or something previously mentioned. It is not referring to "smoke" because smoke is not a "they!" "And" the "they," already mentioned in the previous clause, have no rest day or night. How long does the no rest day or night last? How long will God's unchanging word last? When does this verse begin to say "and they finally get some rest?"

I just don’t understand your bloodthirsty desire to see folks horribly tortured forever because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t or couldn’t meet certain requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

I'll let this "bloodthirsty" insult slide this one time. Address the issues being discussed not my person. I will not say this again.

God established the rules and the requirements. If you don't like them talk to God. God does not hold anyone responsible for what they do not know.

Rom 1:18-20
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

 

[Der Alte]

Can you show me any incident in the NT where anyone physically died the instant they sinned? No? Therefore the meaning of "the wages of sin is death" is the death depicted in Gen 2, spiritual death. Unlike you I do not interpret scripture arbitrarily to fit assumptions/presuppositions. I have been a Christian for more than 4 decades you are going to play the devil catching me out. You would be better served if you spent your time trying to reconcile, rather than trying to explain away, inconvenient scripture.

I'm Not trying to trick you, I'm trying to challenge you. Some of your thinking, sir (and I respect your 40 years in His Service) is a little disorganized. I'm sorry.

Does NOT address this post in any way. Stick to the topic not my person. I will not say this again.

Eternal Torment is not the conclusion that you arrive at by reading the scripture, unless you have previously determined that it is so.

That is exactly the conclusion one arrives at if one reads the scripture without the indoctrination of a post 19th century religious group. I doubt that the entire early church, all of who spoke and read Greek somehow got it wrong and people today who could not conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it somehow got it right.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras

"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])

Irenaeus

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).​

 

[Der Alte]

Can you show me any incident in the NT where anyone physically died the instant they sinned? No? Therefore the meaning of "the wages of sin is death" is the death depicted in Gen 2, spiritual death. Unlike you I do not interpret scripture arbitrarily to fit assumptions/presuppositions. I have been a Christian for more than 4 decades you are going to play the devil catching me out. You would be better served if you spent your time trying to reconcile, rather than trying to explain away, inconvenient scripture.

Acts 5:1-11

Paraphrase - ""You sinned by lying to God". When he heard these words, Ananias died."

Out-of-context proof text allusion. Ananias did NOT die the instant he lied to God/the Holy Spirit, he died only after Peter confronted him and his wife died about three hours later. AFIK there is no occurrence of anyone physically dying the instant they sin. And it is clearly not the norm in scripture. Therefore the scripture "the wages of sin is death" refers to the spiritual death first mentioned in Gen 2.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Meaningless without context. I agree completely. When a person sins they die spiritually, as Adam did, and are separated from God unless/until they repent and are saved. This says nothing about a person after judgment!

Howdy.
Btw, were you going to vote in the poll?

 

[Der Alte]

Mark 9:43-48?
This is literal advice? I haven't met many pastors who advise taking Mark 9:43-48 literally.

Are you referring to pastors in your own religious group?

First Apology Of Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.]

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonored and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] 6. On The Resurrection Of The Flesh

In another passage it is written: “All flesh shall come to worship before me, saith the Lord.” When? When the fashion of this world shall begin to pass away. For He said before: “As the new heaven and the new earth, which I make, remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed remain.” Then also shall be fulfilled what is written afterwards: “And they shall go forth” (namely, from their graves), “and shall see the carcasses of those who have transgressed: for their worm shall never die, nor shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh” even to that which, being raised again from the dead and brought out from the grave, shall adore the Lord for this great grace.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236]Against Plato, On The Cause Of The Universe

Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258)Treatise 8 On Works And Alms

24. What will then be the glory of faith? what the punishment of faithlessness? When the day of judgment shall come, what joy of believers, what sorrow of unbelievers; that they should have been unwilling to believe here, and now that they should be unable to return that they might believe! An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering. Thus the man will be for ever seen by us who here gazed upon us for a season; and the short joy of those cruel eyes in the persecutions that they made for us will be compensated by a perpetual spectacle, according to the truth of Holy Scripture, which says, “Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be for a vision to all flesh.”​

 

[Timothew]

Mark 9:43-48?
This is literal advice? I haven't met many pastors who advise taking Mark 9:43-48 literally.

43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.c</SPAN> 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.d</SPAN> 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,</SPAN> 48where</SPAN>
“‘their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’e

Most pastors do not advise taking the bolded part literally.

 

[Der Alte]

43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where “‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Most pastors do not advise taking the bolded part literally.

I notice you omitted some verses. That elusive group "most pastors" also knows the maxim, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." I do not know of any scholar who thinks that Herod was literally, actually a wild, 4 legged, carnivore, a fox. Or that two of Jesus disciples were literally actually fathered by thunder, or that Simon was actually, literally a stone. None of those figures of speech render the rest of the respective passages figurative.

 

[Timothew]

I notice you omitted some verses. That elusive group "most pastors" also knows the maxim, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." I do not know of any scholar who thinks that Herod was literally, actually a wild, 4 legged, carnivore, a fox. Or that two of Jesus disciples were literally actually fathered by thunder, or that Simon was actually, literally a stone. None of those figures of speech render the rest of the respective passages figurative.

You are the person who said that I should take Mark 9:43-48 literally.
I believe you are alone in this, although I don't know which denomination you come from.

In your church, which implement have you found to be most effective, for the removal of hands and feet?

Is there a special service for this? Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Hand-Removal-Day? Is attendance down that day?

So you say, This is Not meant to be taken literally, but the other is!
OK, now we're talking! Some scripture passages are meant to be taken literally, and some figuratively. Now you and I can discuss them, which is which? Is the Fire Lake literal or figurative of biblical truth?

And if some is figurative and some literal, is it wise to take the Book of Revelation literally and the Book of Romans figuratively?

 

[Timothew]

That is exactly the conclusion one arrives at if one reads the scripture without the indoctrination of a post 19th century religious group. I doubt that the entire early church, all of who spoke and read Greek somehow got it wrong and people today who could not conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it somehow got it right.

Irrelevant!
phileis - you love
philousin - they love

 

[Der Alte]

I notice you omitted some verses. That elusive group "most pastors" also knows the maxim, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." I do not know of any scholar who thinks that Herod was literally, actually a wild, 4 legged, carnivore, a fox. Or that two of Jesus disciples were literally actually fathered by thunder, or that Simon was actually, literally a stone. None of those figures of speech render the rest of the respective passages figurative.

You are the person who said that I should take Mark 9:43-48 literally.
I believe you are alone in this, although I don't know which denomination you come from.

In your church, which implement have you found to be most effective, for the removal of hands and feet?

Is there a special service for this? Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Hand-Removal-Day? Is attendance down that day?

I see we are having a little truth and integrity problem here! Let me know if you get that worked out and want to address my post, which you quoted here, with truth, integrity, and common sense?

So you say, This is Not meant to be taken literally, but the other is!

Try rereading my post I very clearly explained how one can differentiate between the literal and figurative. But it looks to me like you want to play games, twist what I say, and have it your way no matter what.

OK, now we're talking! Some scripture passages are meant to be taken literally, and some figuratively. Now you and I can discuss them, which is which? Is the Fire Lake literal or figurative of biblical truth?

What physical, historical, scriptural, etc. fact would preclude the LOF from literally existing? There ain't none!

And if some is figurative and some literal, is it wise to take the Book of Revelation literally and the Book of Romans figuratively.

Guess God does not have a throne and God and the lamb do not reign forever and ever, since, according to you, the entire book of Revelation is figurative. It does not depend on a coin toss, this book is literal, that book is figurative. Here is the maxim again, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." Your rule seems to be, "If it contradicts your assumptions/presuppositions then it is figurative."

 

[Der Alte]

Irrelevant!
phileis - you love
philousin - they love

Your post is irrelevant! It only shows you can look up and post two forms of a verb. It does not show you have the knowledge to actually conjugate verbs.

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