Conception of Hell

[PROPHECYKID]

Not according to my Bible. The Bible is quite clear, no matter how you try to edit It or twist it's words into imaginary meanings. If you wish to ignore the clear-cut truth, you do so at your own peril.

You just simply do not want to change your mind. Because the bible already gives indication as to how the word 'forever' is used. You are just ignoring that. Are the eternal fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burning today?

 

[Aimiel]

You just simply do not want to change your mind. Because the bible already gives indication as to how the word 'forever' is used. You are just ignoring that. Are the eternal fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burning today?

I don't believe they will ever go out. The smoke of their torment will ascend forever. You simply don't want to change your mind, because The Bible already gives us indication of how long the torment of those in the Lake of Fire will last.

 

[Timothew]

I know you are... but what am I?Sorry, but the Lake of Fire is the second death, to which the sinner's judgment leads him; whether you accept that fact or not. The torment of all those relegated to that fate will always ascend, as they are continually tormented, forever.

I'm rubber and you're glue!

John interprets his revelation vision for us, we don't have to guess.
John says that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Death means that no-one will be alive in the lake of fire, they will get death, just like the rest of the bible says.

 

[Aimiel]

Sorry, but smoke ascending from torment for ever and ever cannot happen without torment continuing for ever and ever. Calling this torment, "The Second Death," doesn't detract from that eternal torment.

 

[Timothew]

Sorry, but smoke ascending from torment for ever and ever cannot happen without torment continuing for ever and ever. Calling this torment, "The Second Death," doesn't detract from that eternal torment.

It wasn't me that called it the 2nd death, It was John, who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I'm not trying to detract from eternal torment. I'm saying the bible doesn't teach that people are tormented for all eternity. John calls it death, that doesn't mean eternal torture.

 

[JesusFreak78]

The Bible says, "smoke of their torment," and if you think about it, wouldn't smoke dissipate, after say, a few days? It ascends for ever and ever. That means they're still being tormented. Hello. McFly!!!

That's exactly my point. Those that say people just stop existing but still believe in a smoke coming up forever doesn't think it through.

My post was was an attempt to make them think. Also the torment from "smoke of their torment" can't be forever if they stop existing.

 

[JesusFreak78]

It wasn't me that called it the 2nd death, It was John, who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I'm not trying to detract from eternal torment. I'm saying the bible doesn't teach that people are tormented for all eternity. John calls it death, that doesn't mean eternal torture.

Before we start with out own interpretation, let us see what the bible tells us the second death is.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Here we see it explained to us the second death is being in the lake burning with fire and brimstone. It's not stop to exist.

 

[JesusFreak78]

I'm rubber and you're glue!

John interprets his revelation vision for us, we don't have to guess.
John says that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Death means that no-one will be alive in the lake of fire, they will get death, just like the rest of the bible says.

Your post makes no sense. What's the point if being tormented if you're dead?

 

[cubinity]

Your post makes no sense. What's the point if being tormented if you're dead?

What's the point of being tormented at all?

 

[rstrats]

re: "What's the point of being tormented at all?"

Right. If a loving, merciful supreme being has the ability to wipe a person out of existence, what satisfaction can he realize by torturing the person for eternity? Who does that benifit?

 

[cubinity]

re: "What's the point of being tormented at all?"

Right. If a loving, merciful supreme being has the ability to wipe a person out of existence, what satisfaction can he realize by torturing the person for eternity? Who does that benifit?

Beyond that...

Think about why a more powerful or mature entity reflects pain onto a lesser person. The only justifiable reason is to modify that person's behavior. To disciple them. To instruct them. To consequentially affect all future behavior.

However, in the case of hell, there is nothing the tormented can do differently. There is no wrong that can be made right. There is no longer anything that can be modified or changed about the one being tormented. Therefore, the torment is only for the entertainment of the tormentor.

Punishing the guilty, if that is how one views hell, is only reasonable to bear one of two consequences. Either the guilty is rehabilitated by the punishment, or the guilty is removed from the population so no further harm may be produced. Tormenting people forever, in the context of hell, doesn't satisfy either consequence.

So, honestly, what is the point? Forget that God is good or loving. Forget that he can just as easily destroy us and be done with it. What good comes from tormenting us in the hopeless context that hell represents?

 

[JesusFreak78]

What's the point of being tormented at all?

The point is people have violated a holy God's holy law and if God is just He needs to punish disobedience.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Beyond that...

Think about why a more powerful or mature entity reflects pain onto a lesser person. The only justifiable reason is to modify that person's behavior. To disciple them. To instruct them. To consequentially affect all future behavior.

However, in the case of hell, there is nothing the tormented can do differently. There is no wrong that can be made right. There is no longer anything that can be modified or changed about the one being tormented. Therefore, the torment is only for the entertainment of the tormentor.

Punishing the guilty, if that is how one views hell, is only reasonable to bear one of two consequences. Either the guilty is rehabilitated by the punishment, or the guilty is removed from the population so no further harm may be produced. Tormenting people forever, in the context of hell, doesn't satisfy either consequence.

So, honestly, what is the point? Forget that God is good or loving. Forget that he can just as easily destroy us and be done with it. What good comes from tormenting us in the hopeless context that hell represents?

You're trying to put human logic into into God when His ways are much higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[rstrats]

JesusFreak78,
　
re: "The point is people have violated a holy God's holy law and if God is just He needs to punish disobedience."

Being given the death sentence for one’s wrong doings IS punishment.
　


re: "You're trying to put human logic into into God when His ways are much higher than our ways..."

IF a supreme being’s way is to torment a person in flames for eternity, then his way is much lower than our way. Fortunately there is no scripture that says that that is his way. Just the opposite. The wages of sin is death.

 

[JesusFreak78]

JesusFreak78,
　
re: "The point is people have violated a holy God's holy law and if God is just He needs to punish disobedience."

Being given the death sentence for one’s wrong doings IS punishment.
　


re: "You're trying to put human logic into into God when His ways are much higher than our ways..."

IF a supreme being’s way is to torment a person in flames for eternity, then his way is much lower than our way. Fortunately there is no scripture that says that that is his way. Just the opposite. The wages of sin is death.

And where does death take you if you aren't saved?

 

[rstrats]

JesusFreak78,
r
e: "And where does death take you if you aren't saved?"

To eternal unconsciousness.

 

[JesusFreak78]

JesusFreak78,
r
e: "And where does death take you if you aren't saved?"

To eternal unconsciousness.

And where in the bible do you find that?

 

[Timothew]

Before we start with out own interpretation, let us see what the bible tells us the second death is.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Here we see it explained to us the second death is being in the lake burning with fire and brimstone. It's not stop to exist.

OK, the bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. The bible does not say that the second death is the lake of fire. It's an important distinction, because one defines the other.

When John says the lake of fire is the second death, he is defining the lake of fire for us. The lake of fire means death, specifically, the second death, from which there is no resurrection.

If John had said, "The second death, which is the lake of fire," then he would be defining what the second death is, and you would be correct.

But since he defines the lake of fire as the second death, you can't then add eternal torment to it. He said what the lake of fire is, it's death and it is not eternal torment.

 

[Timothew]

Your post makes no sense. What's the point if being tormented if you're dead?

Who is saying they are being tormented?

You are assuming that God torments people for all eternity, but the bible doesn't say that.

If it were true that God torments people for all eternity,
Then you would be correct, there would be no point in doing this if they were already dead.
And then my post wouldn't make sense.

But until you prove from the Bible, that God torments people for all eternity, we have to assume that the wages of sin is death, like the Good Book says, and the free gift from god is eternal life in His Son.

The choices are:
1. Eternal Life with Jesus Christ.
2. Eternally dead without Jesus Christ.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Who is saying they are being tormented?

You are assuming that God torments people for all eternity, but the bible doesn't say that.

If it were true that God torments people for all eternity,
Then you would be correct, there would be no point in doing this if they were already dead.
And then my post wouldn't make sense.

But until you prove from the Bible, that God torments people for all eternity, we have to assume that the wages of sin is death, like the Good Book says, and the free gift from god is eternal life in His Son.

The choices are:
1. Eternal Life with Jesus Christ.
2. Eternally dead without Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:10 says they are being tormented.

Revelation 14:10
he also shall drink of the wine of the anger of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.