Conception of Hell

[cubinity]

You're trying to put human logic into into God when His ways are much higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Let me just throw this out there to clarify something before I involve myself in any kind of debate with you.

If the supreme authority of the universe promotes something, then whatever he is promoting is true. The person who represents God is called his prophet, and that prophet speaks on behalf of God, so others must take what he says seriously or they face some serious consequences.

If a person claims to speak on behalf of God, and that their statements carry the authoritative weight of God, then that person is said to be using God's name.

If that person is wrong in even one statement while using the name of God, then that person is said to be using God's name in vain. Do I need to point out to you the consequences of such an offense?

Now, I am confident that you were raised in your faith by people who did not shudder at this idea of using God's name to give authority to their arguments. I'm sure they even told you the line you just told me (I know they used it on me a few times).

The problem with the statement, however, is that it is ridiculous to the hearer, but condemning to the speaker. Let me explain.

Telling me I am using human logic is stating the obvious. I am human, and I exist after the Enlightenment, which means I am influenced by modernism, which sees logic and empiricism as authoritative. I cannot use any other logic but human logic since I am not capable of producing any other kind of logic from my human brain. So, my using human logic is not a problem, but it is the natural order of things.

However, your statement implies that you are not relying on human logic, but are speaking God's logic. You, it would seem, are claiming to speak the words of God. By making this claim, you are admitting to use the Lord's name. Therefore, you are saying that you are either absolutely right, or are committing a terrible offense against God.

Now, this isn't really a problem for me, since I am owning my own opinions and not attributing them to God, though I can support them with the interpretations of Bible verses I have come to accept. However, it becomes a major problem for you, since you now have to be absolutely right on this issue: an issue that is admittedly unclear in the Scriptures, has no empirical evidence, and does not have any eye-witness testimonies (therefore being unprovable to all three: the premodernist, modernist and postmodernist).

For your sake, I hope you're right.

 

[rstrats]

re: "For your sake, I hope your right."

What about his "left"?

 

[Mr Dave]

Subscribing, may butt in later.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Let me just throw this out there to clarify something before I involve myself in any kind of debate with you.

If the supreme authority of the universe promotes something, then whatever he is promoting is true. The person who represents God is called his prophet, and that prophet speaks on behalf of God, so others must take what he says seriously or they face some serious consequences.

If a person claims to speak on behalf of God, and that their statements carry the authoritative weight of God, then that person is said to be using God's name.

If that person is wrong in even one statement while using the name of God, then that person is said to be using God's name in vain. Do I need to point out to you the consequences of such an offense?

Now, I am confident that you were raised in your faith by people who did not shudder at this idea of using God's name to give authority to their arguments. I'm sure they even told you the line you just told me (I know they used it on me a few times).

The problem with the statement, however, is that it is ridiculous to the hearer, but condemning to the speaker. Let me explain.

Telling me I am using human logic is stating the obvious. I am human, and I exist after the Enlightenment, which means I am influenced by modernism, which sees logic and empiricism as authoritative. I cannot use any other logic but human logic since I am not capable of producing any other kind of logic from my human brain. So, my using human logic is not a problem, but it is the natural order of things.

However, your statement implies that you are not relying on human logic, but are speaking God's logic. You, it would seem, are claiming to speak the words of God. By making this claim, you are admitting to use the Lord's name. Therefore, you are saying that you are either absolutely right, or are committing a terrible offense against God.

Now, this isn't really a problem for me, since I am owning my own opinions and not attributing them to God, though I can support them with the interpretations of Bible verses I have come to accept. However, it becomes a major problem for you, since you now have to be absolutely right on this issue: an issue that is admittedly unclear in the Scriptures, has no empirical evidence, and does not have any eye-witness testimonies (therefore being unprovable to all three: the premodernist, modernist and postmodernist).

For your sake, I hope your right.

We will all have to answer for what we are doing/saying it be good or bad.
What I meant with was we need to let scripture interpret scripture because one verse taken out of context or one verse without comparing it to what the scripture is saying other places in the bible can sometimes be taken to mean something else if we lean on our own understanding and what we want it to mean.

 

[cubinity]

We will all have to answer for what we are doing/saying it be good or bad.
What I meant with was we need to let scripture interpret scripture because one verse taken out of context or one verse without comparing it to what the scripture is saying other places in the bible can sometimes be taken to mean something else if we lean on our own understanding and what we want it to mean.

I agree, but that's true of both sides of this debate. The issue is differing hermeneutics, not that one side is doing it right, and one is doing it wrong. They're both right when you consider each sides hermeneutic and axioms. What is real is still unknown.

 

[Der Alte]

Here are the scriptures I posted on another thread which refute the doctrine of eternal torment.
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)
________________

Anyway, you can believe what ever you want.
I believe the bible.

Implies that anyone who disagrees with you does not believe the Bible. For your edification, the word you are using to prove your argument does not necessarily mean utter destruction.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a.of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. of men killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12 . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

God can do anything he chooses to do. That does not mean he will do it.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

The tares are burned up, Jesus does NOT say that wicked people are also burned up. That is an assumption. It is not enough to post vss. which support your argument This laundry list of out-of-context proof texts does NOT address any of the vss. which speak of eternal punishment.

 

[Timothew]

Implies that anyone who disagrees with you does not believe the Bible. For your edification, the word you are using to prove your argument does not necessarily mean utter destruction.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
​

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a.of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. of men killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12 . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
​

God can do anything he chooses to do. That does not mean he will do it.


The tares are burned up, Jesus does NOT say that wicked people are also burned up. That is an assumption. It is not enough to post vss. which support your argument This laundry list of out-of-context proof texts does NOT address any of the vss. which speak of eternal punishment.

Nice try, but you fail.

ἀπόλλυμι
kill, put to death
he will put the evildoers to a miserable death
destroy the wisdom
lose one’s life
the man dies

These are your definitions, sorry.

God can do anything he chooses to do. That does not mean he will do it.

This would be almost meaningful, if the result of sin is death were not repeated throughout the NT.

The tares are burned up, Jesus does NOT say that wicked people are also burned up. That is an assumption. It is not enough to post vss. which support your argument This laundry list of out-of-context proof texts does NOT address any of the vss. which speak of eternal punishment.

Reread Matthew 13.

Just you saying these are "out of context proof texts" doesn't make it so.

 

[rstrats]

The point is that there is not a single scripture that HAS to be interpreted as setting forth the doctrine of eternal torment. There simply is no scripture that absolutely precludes the possibility of annihilation.

 

[Der Alte]

Nice try, but you fail.

ἀπόλλυμι
kill, put to death
he will put the evildoers to a miserable death
destroy the wisdom
lose one’s life
the man dies

These are your definitions, sorry.

Actually you fail, and emphatically so. These definitions only refer to physical death, which is why I highlighted them, NOT utter destruction as you are trying to make it mean. I have never died that all men must die physically.

This would be almost meaningful, if the result of sin is death were not repeated throughout the NT.

Your answer might be meaningful if God had not said to Adam, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Adam did NOT physically die the day he ate of the fruit but continued to live for more than 800 years. Also Jesus told someone let the dead bury their dead.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved​

Reread Matthew 13.

You tell me what you think I'm supposed to see in that chapter, then I will show you how your misunderstand it.

Just you saying these are "out of context proof texts" doesn't make it so.

I don't just say it I show how it is out-of-context. In this case I posted the definition of ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi showing that its predominant meaning is physical death, food spoiling, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

The point is that there is not a single scripture that HAS to be interpreted as setting forth the doctrine of eternal torment. There simply is no scripture that absolutely precludes the possibility of annihilation.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

The Greek εις αιωνας αιωνων is repeated for emphasis. A literary device known as Epezeuksis. The eternal nature of the punishment is further emphasized by the phrase "no rest day or night!"

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, [εις αιωνας αιωνων]

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, [εις αιωνας αιωνων] and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.[εις αιωνας αιωνων]

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, [εις αιωνας αιωνων] who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. [εις αιωνας αιωνων]​

God lives forever not just for some imaginary ages.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.[εις αιωνας αιωνων]

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.[εις αιωνας αιωνων]​

God reigns forever not just for some imaginary ages.

 

[Timothew]

Actually you fail, and emphatically so. These definitions only refer to physical death, which is why I highlighted them, NOT utter destruction as you are trying to make it mean. I have never died that all men must die physically.



Your answer might be meaningful if God had not said to Adam, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Adam did NOT physically die the day he ate of the fruit but continued to live for more than 800 years. Also Jesus told someone let the dead bury their dead.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
​

You tell me what you think I'm supposed to see in that chapter, then I will show you how your misunderstand it.



I don't just say it I show how it is out-of-context. In this case I posted the definition of ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi showing that its predominant meaning is physical death, food spoiling, etc.

I feel like you and I are too far apart to have a meaningful discussion. I'm saying that death entered the world through sin. Since there is only life in God, and sin separates us from God, therefore we will die. The good news is that we all can have our sins forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ, now nothing separates us from God (who alone has life) therefore we also can have life. Look at John 5:26, For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

So your saying that these passages indicate physical death doesn't make any difference. When we die we die physically. When we are resurrected by Jesus Christ we are resurrected physically. We will actually live again. Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ rejects the source of life. (In Him was life, John 1:4) Anyone who rejects the source of life, cannot have life from this source, so they die. John 5:21 says "For just as the Father raises the dead (physically dead) and gives them life (physical life), even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."

Now, concerning Adam. The very day that he sinned, he became mortal, just as God said. "for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Gen 2:17) This sin brought the curse of death to Adam, and to all of us because we all sin. The writer of Genesis is saying the same thing as Paul says in Romans 5, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. . . death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. The judgement (what is this judgement, death or torment?) followed one sin and brought condemnation. (Death or torment?) Paul answers this, by the trespass of one man, death reigned. The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. Paul equates the condemnation with death.

Concerning Ephesians 2:5,
Paul is not suddenly saying something different to the Ephesians from what he wrote to the Romans. The result of sin is death, whether you are Roman OR Ephesian. But God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ. Paul is saying they were dead in their sins because as sinners they were mortal. Just like Adam. But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

Concerning Matthew 13,
Did you reread chapter 13?
You said "The tares are burned up, Jesus does NOT say that wicked people are also burned up. That is an assumption."
The part of Chapter 13 that I wanted you to see was where Jesus explained the tares, verses 36-43.
"The weeds are the sons of the evil one," (wicked people) "As the weeds are pulled up and burned, so it will be at the end of the age." In other words, just as the tares are burnt up, so will the wicked people be burnt up. It's no assumption, it's what Jesus said.

Concerning Appolumi, it means death, so your comment that I am taking scripture out of context is untrue.

Concerning Revelation,
"For an adequate understanding of Revelation, the reader must recognize that it is a distinct kind of literature. Revelation is apocalyptic, a kind of writing that is highly symbolic." (NIV Study Bible, from the Introduction to Revelation)

When John says the smoke of their destruction rises forever, this is apocalyptic language saying that they will be killed.

The rest of your Revelation References are nice, but they say God lives forever, and He does. And they say the Righteous will live forever, and they do.


(refs are NIV)

 

[Timothew]

I just read the subforum statement:

5. We believe in the judgment of God, and in a literal Heaven and Hell.

I may not be allowed to post here because I believe "Hell" is literally "death."

I didn't see that until now. If I can have a special "dispensation," I'll stick around, otherwise, I'll leave quietly. It's been an interesting discussion.

 

[rstrats]

Der Alter,

re: "Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever..."

This only says that smoke will go up forever. Nothing is said about a person being tormented forever. You have to WANT to believe that they will be tormented forever in order to read that into the verse.
　
re: "...and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

This doesn’t say anything about the duration of the lack of rest. You have to WANT to believe that they will have no rest forever in order to read that into the verse.


So, since there is no scripture that absolutely and unequivocally teaches eternal torment, which would you rather believe; that the loving supreme being of scripture will torment folks for eternity or that He will annihilate them for eternity?

 

[rstrats]

Timothew,

re: "‘5. We believe in the judgment of God, and in a literal Heaven and Hell.’ I may not be allowed to post here because I believe ‘Hell’ is literally ‘death.’"

But the statement doesn’t delineate what a literal hell consists of, so I don’t see a problem.

 

[Timothew]

Timothew,

re: "‘5. We believe in the judgment of God, and in a literal Heaven and Hell.’ I may not be allowed to post here because I believe ‘Hell’ is literally ‘death.’"

But the statement doesn’t delineate what a literal hell consists of, so I don’t see a problem.

Thanks.

 

[Der Alte]

re: "Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever..."

This only says that smoke will go up forever. Nothing is said about a person being tormented forever. You have to WANT to believe that they will be tormented forever in order to read that into the verse.

It says, "the smoke of their torment" if those in the flames instantly die the smoke is no longer theirs, it is just smoke. And this clause is immediately followed by "and the have no rest day or night" All part of one thought. So they do not die instantly! Here are other verses which use the exact same phrase.

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων] and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων] who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]​

Does God lie forever or only until the end of some imaginary ages?

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]​

Does God and His Christ reign forever or only until the end of some imaginary ages?

re: "...and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

This doesn’t say anything about the duration of the lack of rest. You have to WANT to believe that they will have no rest forever in order to read that into the verse.

10, 000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "they have no rest day or night!" The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever and they have no rest day nor night, they are not instantly annihilated! Notice how you have tried to disassociate this phrase from the phrase which immediately precedes it, as if there is no relation between the two. The phrase "The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" is joined by the word "and" to "they have no rest day nor night" It is all part of one thought. While they are being tormented and the smoke is rising they have no rest day or night until God changes his word. If those in the flames die instantly who cares how long smoke rises? If they die instantly how can they not have rest day nor night?

What is the duration of the lack of rest for the creatures which worship God before the throne.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.​

So, since there is no scripture that absolutely and unequivocally teaches eternal torment, which would you rather believe; that the loving supreme being of scripture will torment folks for eternity or that He will annihilate them for eternity?

Your arguments are irrelevant and immaterial I have shown that Rev 14:11 clearly shows eternal torment in flames.

 

[Der Alte]

I feel like you and I are too far apart to have a meaningful discussion.

We are when you hang onto your handful of out-of-context proof texts and ignore all the other relevant passages or reinterpret other passages which clearly speak of eternal punishment in light of your proof texts.

So your saying that these passages indicate physical death doesn't make any difference. [ . . . ]

You have just acknowledged there is a difference between physical and spiritual death and neither one necessarily means some kind of finality after which is nothing.

Now, concerning Adam. The very day that he sinned, he became mortal, just as God said. "for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Gen 2:17) This sin brought the curse of death to Adam, and to all of us because we all sin. The writer of Genesis is saying the same thing as Paul says in Romans 5, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. . . death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. The judgement (what is this judgement, death or torment?) followed one sin and brought condemnation. (Death or torment?) Paul answers this, by the trespass of one man, death reigned. The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. Paul equates the condemnation with death.

A long convoluted mish-mash of pieces of various verses trying to support your assumptions/presuppositions. All irrelevant, God did NOT say all this to Adam. My point is God said "in the day you eat of the tree 'dying you will die.' or you will surely die" and Adam did not literally, physically die in that day, he continued to physically live for more than 800 years on the earth. So when you quote scripture to me which says "the wages of sin is death" trying to disprove eternal punishment I say prove it! There are many scripture which speak of death which is not physical death or final, ultimate, nothing after death.

Concerning Ephesians 2:5,
Paul is not suddenly saying something different to the Ephesians from what he wrote to the Romans. The result of sin is death, whether you are Roman OR Ephesian. But God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ. Paul is saying they were dead in their sins because as sinners they were mortal. Just like Adam. But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

This verse is one of many which disproves your argument that death is final with nothing following.

Concerning Matthew 13,
Did you reread chapter 13?
You said "The tares are burned up, Jesus does NOT say that wicked people are also burned up. That is an assumption."
The part of Chapter 13 that I wanted you to see was where Jesus explained the tares, verses 36-43.
"The weeds are the sons of the evil one," (wicked people) "As the weeds are pulled up and burned, so it will be at the end of the age." In other words, just as the tares are burnt up, so will the wicked people be burnt up. It's no assumption, it's what Jesus said.

Please show me where Jesus says specifically that at the end of the age "the sons of the evil one," (wicked people)" will be burned up, destroyed, annihilated, etc? I want to the see the exact words not what you infer something else means?

Concerning Appolumi, it means death, so your comment that I am taking scripture out of context is untrue.

So none of the proof texts you posted literally mean annihilation, destruction, etc. as you previously implied, they simply mean death?

Concerning Revelation,
"For an adequate understanding of Revelation, the reader must recognize that it is a distinct kind of literature. Revelation is apocalyptic, a kind of writing that is highly symbolic." (NIV Study Bible, from the Introduction to Revelation)

When John says the smoke of their destruction rises forever, this is apocalyptic language saying that they will be killed.

The rest of your Revelation References are nice, but they say God lives forever, and He does. And they say the Righteous will live forever, and they do.

(refs are NIV)

You have just contradicted yourself. For ever and ever in Rev 14:11 means death but it means forever everywhere else in Rev. This is the age old false religious group cop-out, scripture is only literal when it supports your assumptions/presuppositions but when it proves you wrong then it is SPAM-Fig. i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, etc. What does no rest day nor night mean in this verse, since it supposedly means "death" in Rev 14:11?

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.​

What special, hidden, esoteric meaning was John hiding in this verse that only a special chosen few like yourself can understand? Or does it mean what it says and say what it means? What about all the verses which say that God lives and reigns forever and ever do they have some special, hidden, symbolic meaning too?

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev 4:10, 5:14, 10:6, 15:7,

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 22:5​

Please show me from scripture or any credible grammatical, lexical source where "the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night" means death?

 

[Timothew]

I guess when I see 4 talking beasts, each with 6 wings, and filled with eyeballs, then I'll know that you are correct and Revelation is meant to be taken literally.

Until then, I'll not make the Book of Revelation say something different than the rest of scripture says.

 

[Der Alte]

I guess when I see 4 talking beasts, each with 6 wings, and filled with eyeballs, then I'll know that you are correct and Revelation is meant to be taken literally.

Until then, I'll not make the Book of Revelation say something different than the rest of scripture says.

"I can't have my way so I'm going to take my ball and go home." The age old false religion dodge. If scripture appears to support your assumptions/presuppositions it is literal, when it doesn't then dismiss it as SPAM-Fig, i.e symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, etc. anything but literal. There is an old maxim about interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." Your way if it disproves your assumptions/presuppositions then it must be figurative.

Guess we also have to blow off Rev 4:10 God does not live forever and ever, that is some kind of indecipherable figure of speech. When Jesus called Herod a fox he was not literally a wild four legged carnivore. When Jesus called two of his disciples "sons of thunder" they were not actually fathered by thunder. When Jesus called one of his disciples Petros he was not literally a stone, and on and on. Those were figures of speech. But the fact that one figure of speech appears in a passage does NOT make the entire passage figurative. As for the beasts John had a message, there was something going on without rest day or night.

 

[Timothew]

Have you ever noticed that it is usually the false religions that scream the loudest, "The age old false religion dodge!"

And if anyone questions you, you just get worse.