Conception of Hell

[Studious One]

Medieval scholars argued that one of, if not the greatest horror of Hell, was the knowledge one was forever cut off from God. This question, what type of Hell do you believe shouldn't be a case of "I believe in this kind of Hell", because Hell is BOTH a place of fire and brimstone, and a place of emotional torment and loss.

The fact is, those who are unsaved today, dead and alive alike, are totally cut off from God. The unsaved dead are cut off forever. The unsaved alive are cut off until they turn to Him in true repentance, seeking forgiveness for sin and eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Hell will be much more than just being cut off from God. It will be a place of torment, a place of memory, a place of everlasting burning, a place of darkness, a place of sorrow, a place of thirst, a place of crying, and a place of screaming, a place with the stench of sulfur from which there is no relief for ever and ever.

 

[Timothew]

Ok, if the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for other sense.

What physical, historical, scriptural, etc. fact would preclude the LOF from literally existing? There ain't none!

The Lake of Fire. How does this literally exist? I know what a lake is, and I know what fire is.

My rule actually is "use the bible to interpret the bible". If a passage seems to contradict the rest of scripture, it must have another meaning.

 

[Timothew]

Your post is irrelevant! It only shows you can look up and post two forms of a verb. It does not show you have the knowledge to actually conjugate verbs.

συμβεβηκεν δε αυτοις το της αληθους παροιμιας κυων επιστρεψας επι το ιδιον εξεραμα
​

I know, you are correct. But conjugating cannot make thanatos mean eternal torment.

Who's the dog in this scenario?

 

[Timothew]

Well, are you going to teach us all how to conjugate verbs, or not?

 

[Simon_Templar]

First, I don't have a problem really with either the traditional view or the miltonian view as I think to a certain degree either or both can be supported.

I subscribe to the view that has been held by the entire Church since the beginning. Hell is real and eternal.

However, the "Lake of Fire" is necessarily a metaphorical reference... even if it refers to an actual lake of fire, its still a metaphorical reference. The reason for this is that the actual word which is rendered as "lake of fire" is gehenna in Greek, coming from the Hebrew or Aramaic Gey Hinnom (I'm working off the top of my head so the spelling might be wrong).

What that actually literally means is the "valley of Hinnom". It was one of the valleys not far from Jerusalem.
This valley was traditionally believed by Jews of that time to be the entrance of the underworld (ie hell). It was also well known for two other things. 1st it was the city's garbage dump and garbage was constantly being burned there so that it is basically perpetually on fire. Secondly it was also the location where in the history of Judah, the Israelites had sacrificed their children to Molech by burning them.

Thus the valley is a metaphorical refrence to hell. It is translated as lake of fire because of the association that the place was perpetually on fire. Obviously Jesus' listeners would also have associated it with hell since that was well known association already among the Jews.

The Jews and the bible both appear to have had a conception of hell that was at least somewhat similar to that of the Greeks, in that it was divided between three places. In the Greek version there was a good place, a bad place and an inbetween place.
In the Jewish/Biblical version there are two places for humans, one good and one bad, and a third place which appears to be reserved for fallen angels. (I can't say for sure that this exists in Jewish lore, but it is present in scripture.)

In the Jewish/Biblical view the two places for humans, good and bad (abraham's bossom and the place of torment, both found in the 3rd heaven also known as paradise) were both concieved of as temporary places where people would wait until final judgement.
The abyss described in various places in the bible seems to function as a kind of prison for fallen angels. It is unclear if this is the same as the place of torment, or if its a different place.

 

[Der Alte]

Ok, if the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for other sense.

The Lake of Fire. How does this literally exist? I know what a lake is, and I know what fire is.

My rule actually is "use the bible to interpret the bible". If a passage seems to contradict the rest of scripture, it must have another meaning.

So you think that God is incapable of creating a lake of fire?

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

What rest of scripture does this contradict?

 

[Der Alte]

I know, you are correct. But conjugating cannot make thanatos mean eternal torment.

Who's the dog in this scenario?

Did not say that conjugating can make thanatos mean eternal torment. There is already a phrase for that repeated more than once in the NT. When a NT writer/speaker meant θάνατος/thanatos that is what he said and when they meant κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion that is what they said. Unless the specific text clearly indicates otherwise, and none do, NO NT writer ever wrote one for the other! No you "teach" me where θάνατος/thanatos always ever means eternal death, after which is nothing. If you can figure out the dog you can figure out the scenario.

 

[Der Alte]

First, I don't have a problem really with either the traditional view or the miltonian view as I think to a certain degree either or both can be supported.

I subscribe to the view that has been held by the entire Church since the beginning. Hell is real and eternal.

However, the "Lake of Fire" is necessarily a metaphorical reference... even if it refers to an actual lake of fire, its still a metaphorical reference. The reason for this is that the actual word which is rendered as "lake of fire" is gehenna in Greek, coming from the Hebrew or Aramaic Gey Hinnom (I'm working off the top of my head so the spelling might be wrong).

What that actually literally means is the "valley of Hinnom". It was one of the valleys not far from Jerusalem.
This valley was traditionally believed by Jews of that time to be the entrance of the underworld (ie hell). It was also well known for two other things. 1st it was the city's garbage dump and garbage was constantly being burned there so that it is basically perpetually on fire. Secondly it was also the location where in the history of Judah, the Israelites had sacrificed their children to Molech by burning them.

Sorry what you are posting is a dastardly fiction created and propagated to deceive the unwary. There is NO, ZERO, NONE evidence that the valley of Hinnom/Gehenna ws ever used for a garbage dump.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.​

Thus the valley is a metaphorical refrence to hell. It is translated as lake of fire because of the association that the place was perpetually on fire. Obviously Jesus' listeners would also have associated it with hell since that was well known association already among the Jews.

The Jews and the bible both appear to have had a conception of hell that was at least somewhat similar to that of the Greeks, in that it was divided between three places. In the Greek version there was a good place, a bad place and an inbetween place.
In the Jewish/Biblical version there are two places for humans, one good and one bad, and a third place which appears to be reserved for fallen angels. (I can't say for sure that this exists in Jewish lore, but it is present in scripture.)

In the Jewish/Biblical view the two places for humans, good and bad (abraham's bossom and the place of torment, both found in the 3rd heaven also known as paradise) were both concieved of as temporary places where people would wait until final judgement.
The abyss described in various places in the bible seems to function as a kind of prison for fallen angels. It is unclear if this is the same as the place of torment, or if its a different place.

Now for the truth about the Jews and the place of eternal, unending punishment which they called both Gehenna and Sheol. FYI the term "in the bosom of . . ." is not a place but a Hebraism for the place of honor at a feast or dinner.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

 

[Der Alte]

Well, are you going to teach us all how to conjugate verbs, or not?

You must have me confused with 2-3 other guys. Where did I ever hint that I would teach anyone anything? If you want to learn how to conjugate Greek verbs pay the tuition and take the classes like I did. I think it runs about $20,000/semester now. Or you can do waht most folks around here do assume they are Greek scholars because they have a Strong's and can look up root words, then eenie, meenie, minie, moe pick whichever of the definitions suit them.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Sorry what you are posting is a dastardly fiction created and propagated to deceive the unwary. There is NO, ZERO, NONE evidence that the valley of Hinnom/Gehenna ws ever used for a garbage dump.

Your really not very good at talking to people are you...

 

[nChrist]

Your really not very good at talking to people are you...

Actually, I think that Der Alter has amazing patience in dealing with all the off-the-wall nonsense in this thread. Read - study - and learn from Der Alter's posts. That's exactly what I'm doing with Der Alter's posts, and I sincerely appreciate them. In fact, I plan to spend considerable time in studying his posts in this thread and others. He is spending considerable time and effort in posting this material, so you ought to say THANK YOU.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Actually, I think that Der Alter has amazing patience in dealing with all the off-the-wall nonsense in this thread. Read - study - and learn from Der Alter's posts. That's exactly what I'm doing with Der Alter's posts, and I sincerely appreciate them. In fact, I plan to spend considerable time in studying his posts in this thread and others. He is spending considerable time and effort in posting this material, so you ought to say THANK YOU.

Well, my point was that he was very abrassive, to the point of being rude. He was really unreasonable and condemning in the way he responded... despite the fact that my conclusions and view actually AGREE with his.

It was as though he read enough to find one small thing he disagreed with in my post and then jumped all over it.

Further, the point he railed against was / is unimportant to my views and conclusions. Whether the valley of hinnom was a garbage dump or not really makes no difference either way. It doesn't support any particular view point, and it certainly doesn't contradict the traditional view point.

I mentioned it because it is an 800 year old, (at least) traditional understanding that is cited by almost everyone who talks about this topic.
I have no problem accepting the idea that it might not be true. If it isn't, fine. It has no impact on my views about hell either way.

The rest of the stuff he cites in his post actually agrees with what I said, so I really don't get why he was so hostile.

 

[Timothew]

Hey Simon, I don't want to kick you while you are down, but (I guess I will anyway ),

Actually the words that are rendered "Lake of Fire" are not ge'enna, but ἡ λίμνη τοῦ πυρός, which is translated "the lake the fire,"
Limnology (from limne and logos) is the study of lakes, and the word pyro (pyromaniac) is from puros.

Tim

 

[Timothew]

You must have me confused with 2-3 other guys. Where did I ever hint that I would teach anyone anything? If you want to learn how to conjugate Greek verbs pay the tuition and take the classes like I did. I think it runs about $20,000/semester now. Or you can do waht most folks around here do assume they are Greek scholars because they have a Strong's and can look up root words, then eenie, meenie, minie, moe pick whichever of the definitions suit them.

Thousands of children have learned greek (in Greece) without taking any classes at all, so I think I can manage, thank you.

 

[Der Alte]

You must have me confused with 2-3 other guys. Where did I ever hint that I would teach anyone anything? If you want to learn how to conjugate Greek verbs pay the tuition and take the classes like I did. I think it runs about $20,000/semester now. Or you can do what most folks around here do, assume they are Greek scholars because they have a Strong's and can look up root words, then eenie, meenie, minie, moe pick whichever of the definitions suit them.

Thousands of children have learned greek (in Greece) without taking any classes at all, so I think I can manage, thank you.

And this is relevant to this topic or my post how?

 

[Mr Dave]

*snip* If you want to learn how to conjugate Greek verbs pay the tuition and take the classes like I did. I think it runs about $20,000/semester now.

You're being ripped off if it's that much!

 

[Der Alte]

Well, my point was that he was very abrassive, to the point of being rude. He was really unreasonable and condemning in the way he responded... despite the fact that my conclusions and view actually AGREE with his.

It was as though he read enough to find one small thing he disagreed with in my post and then jumped all over it.

Further, the point he railed against was / is unimportant to my views and conclusions. Whether the valley of hinnom was a garbage dump or not really makes no difference either way. It doesn't support any particular view point, and it certainly doesn't contradict the traditional view point.

Well I apologize if you found my post abrasive and unreasonable. The 2 major points you posted, which I replied to are used virtually on a daily basis around here to "prove", so they think, that hell does not exist. 1. The argument, Gehenna was only a garbage dump and that is what it meant to the Jews of Jesus day, it never meant "hell" that is a mistranslation." That entire argument is invalid because there is no Biblical, historical, archaeological, etc evidence that the valley of Ben Hinnom was ever used as a garbage dump.

2. The second part of your argument is invalid because historical evidence shows that long before the NT, the Jews used the words "Sheol" and "Gehenna" interchangeably to refer to the place of eternal, unending punishment of the wicked. I have another citation from the Talmud showing that is what the two major religious schools in Israel at the time of Jesus, Hillel and Shammai, taught.

I mentioned it because it is an 800 year old, (at least) traditional understanding that is cited by almost everyone who talks about this topic.
I have no problem accepting the idea that it might not be true. If it isn't, fine. It has no impact on my views about hell either way.

The rest of the stuff he cites in his post actually agrees with what I said, so I really don't get why he was so hostile.

I perceived your post to be the same kind of arguments that I referred to above, and which have been refuted time and time again here in this forum. But no matter how many times real, historical evidence is posted, there will invariably be someone who comes in and posts those same arguments over and over and over.

 

[Der Alte]

You're being ripped off if it's that much!

And regardless of any rate hikes, public schools are still a steal compared to private schools. The average sticker price for four-year public colleges and universities this year was relatively low, at $7,020. The average annual cost of attendance at a four-year private college is $26,273; some schools cost as much as $50,000 a year.

Tuition at public colleges and universities skyrockets - Feb. 24, 2010​

 

[Mr Dave]

And regardless of any rate hikes, public schools are still a steal compared to private schools. The average sticker price for four-year public colleges and universities this year was relatively low, at $7,020. The average annual cost of attendance at a four-year private college is $26,273; some schools cost as much as $50,000 a year.

Tuition at public colleges and universities skyrockets - Feb. 24, 2010​

Forgive me, the US education system goes straight over my head, but even doing basic conversion rates in my head there's some insane figures there.

 

[Der Alte]

Forgive me, the US education system goes straight over my head, but even doing basic conversion rates in my head there's some insane figures there.

We know, a lot of HS grads have to either skip or wait for college because many working class parents cannot pay the tuition. For many the fall back plan is, as it was for me when my son graduated from school, go in the military and earn the GI bill college tuition.