[closed] Major Changes to posting in this forum

[Edial]

Now wait a minute.... Why the double standard all of the sudden? Didn't you just tell Ran77 that it doesn't matter how a person defines their own religion within context that matters, but how it is plainly interpreted by someone outside our faith which will be the one you go with?

Now when the same criteria is placed upon you, all of the sudden we have to ignore the plain understanding of your statement and instead rely on some unknown context?

You can do what you guys want... But your reasoning for doing it, is about as confusing as The Trinity doctrine you base it on.

But I did not quote someone who is outside your faith.
I quoted the very prophets and founders of your faith.
They believe God is an exalted man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea... He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. Joseph Smith - Mormonism founder
Ensign, April 1971, p.13-14

Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. Orson Hyde - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 1:123

He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. Brigham Young - Mormon prophet
Journal of Discourses 7:333


God is a natural man... Where did he get his knowledge from? From his Father, just as we get knowledge from our earthly parents. Heber C. Kimball - First Presidency Counselor
Journal of Discourses 8:211

And what I said was within our faith.

 

[A New Dawn]

Fine, so what's the problem?

.

You have made a judgement of the heart by telling them they are non-Christians. I have made a judgement about their theology, leaving the heart issue up to God.

That is the difference.

 

[Edial]

You have made a judgement of the heart by telling them they are non-Christians. I have made a judgement about their theology, leaving the heart issue up to God.

That is the difference.

Didn't I explain at least twice (maybe you did not see it) that such folks would be called to MSC if they promote certain LDS theology while wearing a Christian icon?
We would use their own words on theology to establish what they believe.

We are not speculating whether or not anyone is a Christian.
There are many non-Christians in our everyday churches who claim to be Christians.

It is what they confess. This is how we know.
This is how any human knows - we know that what you confess.

If LDS wears LDS icon s/he willingly identifies with non-Christian theology.
It's a confession stating "I believe in Mormon theology and wear this icon to prove it".

I am not judging anything people do not say or show.

If I was not clear on that, I apologize.
Maybe it clarifies it now.

You and I are saying the same thing.
Nothing is different.
We both go by the way people confess their faith.

 

[hedrick]

I normally think of a Christian as one who follows Christ, and obeys his teachings. (A common definition is "accept Christ as Lord and savior.") I am troubled by calling someone who is plainly a Christian a non-Christian. That doesn't seem to be the kind of thing Jesus would endorse. Sure LDS and JWs are unorthodox. But those I've known are followers of Christ. Unitarians are a different situation. While some are Christians, some are not. It's a very broad organization that includes quite a variety of faiths.

CF is developing idiosyncratic definitions: Christian doesn't include all Christians, Baptist doesn't include American Baptists or the CBF, Presbyterian doesn't include the PCUSA and probably not the ECO, promoting means defending. We're starting to need a special CF dictionary.

 

[Edial]

I normally think of a Christian as one who follows Christ, and obeys his teachings. I am troubled by calling someone who is plainly a Christian a non-Christian. That doesn't seem to be the kind of thing Jesus would endorse. Sure LDS and JWs are unorthodox. But those I've known are followers of Christ. Unitarians are a different situation. While some are Christians, some are not. It's a very broad organization that includes quite a variety of faiths.

CF is developing idiosyncratic definitions: Christian doesn't include all Christians, Baptist doesn't include American Baptists, Presbyterian doesn't include the largest Presbyterian Church, promoting means defending. We're starting to need a special CF dictionary.

The reason we need a special CF dictionary is because today even some Buddhists are called Christians. Soviet atheists believed in Jesus Christ as well.
"Christian" is a "patented" word meaning only one thing - following the Christ of the Bible and putting faith in Him as he claims His identity to be.

Why do you think the Bible warns us of false Christs?
They DO call themselves Christians. But the Bible does not.
What if people follow false Christ?

Christ said - JN 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
​

And later on in John he says he is the I AM of the OT.
​

Salvation is through the belief in the correct individual and not through following the teachings.

 

[Ironhold]

And I also apologize to the LDS and JW and Unitarians for possible hurt feelings.

"Possible hurt feelings"?

We're getting thrown off a forum with only a few days' notice because someone arbitrarily decided that we aren't the "correct" form of Christian, and we're also being told that unless we bear the "correct" logo we'll be punished and even banned.

I'm trying to remember the last few times people wound up being forced to wear the "correct" logos for their religious beliefs, and not one instance I can think of ended well.

 

[Ironhold]

Salvation is through the belief in the correct individual and not through following the teachings.

So it's kosher for someone to do all manner of wickedness as long as they follow the "correct" Christ?

This is the same kind of logic used to justify a lot of the violence we Mormons - along with other groups - have been subjected to by the "Good Christians" of the world: the people who were out to slaughter us were "doing God's work" by going after people who did not worship the "correct" Christ and so it was somehow supposed to be acceptable to God.

This is in no way cool.

 

[Ran77]

Salvation is through the belief in the correct individual and not through following the teachings.

So salvation is not through grace, but based on a specific understanding of who God is that saves us. Is there a Bible verse that states that?


:o

 

[Der Alte]

So it's kosher for someone to do all manner of wickedness as long as they follow the "correct" Christ?

This is the same kind of logic used to justify a lot of the violence we Mormons - along with other groups - have been subjected to by the "Good Christians" of the world: the people who were out to slaughter us were "doing God's work" by going after people who did not worship the "correct" Christ and so it was somehow supposed to be acceptable to God.

This is in no way cool.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.​

 

[Ran77]

Now wait a minute.... Why the double standard all of the sudden? Didn't you just tell Ran77 that it doesn't matter how a person defines their own religion within context that matters, but how it is plainly interpreted by someone outside our faith which will be the one you go with?

Now when the same criteria is placed upon you, all of the sudden we have to ignore the plain understanding of your statement and instead rely on some unknown context?

You can do what you guys want... But your reasoning for doing it, is about as confusing as The Trinity doctrine you base it on.

I don't think they can see how this is the same thing in reverse. But I think you have done well to point it out so that others can see it.

 

[Edial]

So it's kosher for someone to do all manner of wickedness as long as they follow the "correct" Christ?

This is the same kind of logic used to justify a lot of the violence we Mormons - along with other groups - have been subjected to by the "Good Christians" of the world: the people who were out to slaughter us were "doing God's work" by going after people who did not worship the "correct" Christ and so it was somehow supposed to be acceptable to God.

This is in no way cool.

I never said I am better than you are.

 

[Ran77]

We would have debate tags on threads where you may debate in a similar way you are doing here.

So will we just have to search the site until we run across these threads or will there be an announcement made that clearly defines where we can and cannot post as well as an indication of whether we can debate on those threads?

 

[skylark1]

The reason we need a special CF dictionary is because today even some Buddhists are called Christians. Soviet atheists believed in Jesus Christ as well.
"Christian" is a "patented" word meaning only one thing - following the Christ of the Bible and putting faith in Him as he claims His identity to be.

Why do you think the Bible warns us of false Christs?
They DO call themselves Christians. But the Bible does not.
What if people follow false Christ?

Christ said - JN 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
​

And later on in John he says he is the I AM of the OT.
​

Salvation is through the belief in the correct individual and not through following the teachings.

These are the verses that follow, and explain who He claimed to be:

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.


31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.​

How does this relate to those who hold to unorthodox teachings, but believe that Jesus is God; believe that he is the Messiah, and is their Savior, Redeemer, and Lord?

 

[Edial]

So salvation is not through grace, but based on a specific understanding of who God is that saves us. Is there a Bible verse that states that?

:o

Salvation is necessarily based on the person of Jesus Christ, his work on the Cross and who He claimed to be.

JN 8:23 But he [Christ] continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

If we reject Christ is the very God we certainly, unquestionably remain in our sins.
If we believe Christ is God yet have an un-Biblical understand about God such as he originally was a man like you and I, we would perish in our sins.

 

[Edial]

I don't think they can see how this is the same thing in reverse. But I think you have done well to point it out so that others can see it.

Why? I went directly to the quotes of Joseph Smith.

 

[He is Risen 72]

I understand that LDS teaching and JW teachings conflict with the Nicene Creed. I understand that the leaders of those churches are not true prophets, but none of the people posting on this board are the leaders of those churches.

This is true; the leaders are not posting here. However the leaders tell their followers to convert weak Christians by instilling a sense of doubt in their minds that makes them susceptible to the false teachings of these false, manmade religions. It is not the leaders knocking on your door to convert you, it is the followers, the same people that are here trying to install a sense of legitimately in their beliefs and instill that sense of doubt in order to rein more converts to their false beliefs.

 

[Der Alte]

I have a little illustration that I use that seems to fit this situation.

A man says "I'm a carpenter." Someone asks him, "Do you have a hammer?" He answers "No!"

"Do you have a saw?" "No!"

"Do you have a level?" "No!"

"Do you have a square?" "No!"

"Do you have any nails?" "No!"

"Have you ever built anything? "No!"

"You don't have any of the tools that a carpenter uses and you have never built anything, but you still call yourself a carpenter?" "Yes!"​

 

[Edial]

So will we just have to search the site until we run across these threads or will there be an announcement made that clearly defines where we can and cannot post as well as an indication of whether we can debate on those threads?

Everything would be setup for all to see, SOP updated, everything announced ... should be tomorrow or Tuesday.

This is a courtesy thread for people to know what is coming up.

 

[Edial]

Even though Jesus didn't say any of this, it provides future generations a glimpse into what went wrong and the current generation an example of what can go wrong when the living word is converted into petrified doctrine.

I am sorry, but Jesus did say people who reject his claims would remain in their sins.

 

[Edial]

I have a little illustration that I use that seems to fit this situation.

A man says "I'm a carpenter." Someone asks him, "Do you have a hammer?" He answers "No!"

"Do you have a saw?" "No!"

"Do you have a level?" "No!"

"Do you have a square?" "No!"

"Do you have any nails?" "No!"

"Have you ever built anything? "No!"

"You don't have any of the tools that a carpenter uses and you have never built anything, but you still call yourself a carpenter?" "Yes!"​

Thank you for putting it in plain language.