[closed] Major Changes to posting in this forum

[A New Dawn]

I came from an atheist background.
When I receive Christ I definitely felt the pull and the presence of God.
However, my secret was (and I never told anyone then) - I could not understand how that bloodied man on the cross could be God.
In time I came to believe that Christ was God.

God pulled me and then taught me.

So you could not understand some of the basic tenants of Christianity, yet still considered yourself a Christian, why are you denying others the right to do the same?

 

[A New Dawn]

But Dawn you are talking like you do not know how CF works.

Obviously we are talking about two different CFs here. Because it was NEVER the place of CF to tell someone they weren't Christian. Even back with Erwin, it distinctly said so in the rules, that the rules were not created to tell people they weren't Christian, only to delineate who could post where. Heck, it was even a rule for a long time that you couldn't tell anyone (Christian, Buddhist, atheist, anyone) that they weren't a Christian. This is completely new for CF.

We have Christians Only areas that you also personally contributed to be setup.
Could the one with a Buddhist icon claiming to believe in Christ post there?
No, because although a Buddhist believes in Christ as a fully historical Christ of the Bible, he also believes in the incorrect identity of Christ.

By allowing Buddhists call themselves Christians we approve of a Buddhist theology. You do understand that.

Yes, that was a decision made during my brief time not on staff, though. I did not participate in that decision, but it set up the system of basing the moderating on the content of the post rather than the icon of the individual (except in the CO areas). So if a Buddhist did claim a Christian icon, if the post contained material that conflicted with the Nicene Creed, it was deleted, essentially erasing what was said. I'm not seeing how any of this was a problem. It certainly eased lots of tensions on the board. I can only imagine that it's going to go back to being how it was before that change. Lots of drama.

Dawn, we were wrong before by allowing JW and LDS be called Christian.


Ed

We were not wrong in allowing someone who self-identified as Christian to be called one. It is supposed to be THEOLOGY we moderate on these boards, not people.

 

[Edial]

So you could not understand some of the basic tenants of Christianity, yet still considered yourself a Christian, why are you denying others the right to do the same?

I am not.
This was my secret because I knew it was a biggie.
If I would have told the pastor that I do not understand how a man Jesus was God he would have explained it to me.
If I would have rejected the explanation then I would not have been a member of that church.

Now, do I currently consider I became a Christian from the point I said sinners prayer at the Billy Graham telephone line about 25 years ago?

All I know now is that God drew me then very strongly and in time I learned to believe in Him for who He is and not for who I thought he was.

Are Buddhist who call themselves Christians Christians? Not according to CF.
Are Mormons who call themselves Christians Christians? Not according to CF.

We are not judging the individual. We are judging their associations as well as theology.

If one wears an LDS icon, one willingly accepts their theology that is plainly non-Christian.
If one wears a plain cross (example of Christian icon) and posts LDS theology s/he would be asked what is going on in MSC.
If you do not believe in the deity of Christ you cannot wear a Christian icon.

If a known LDS wears a Christian icon we are not going to gang up on the individual for that. Who knows, maybe s/he is a Christian.
However, once we see that individual actually promoting LDS theology - we would have a chat in MSC and take it from there.

 

[Colter]

Dear posters.

CF decided to clarify the distinction between a Christian and non-Christian faiths.

Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF.
​

This means that any faith group that does not believe in the deity of Christ as described may no longer post in Christian-Only areas.
They are considered non-Christians.

Faith groups that accept the deity of Christ as defined yet disagree with some other points in the Nicene Creed would be defined as non-Nicene Christians.

Others that accept the Nicene Creed as defined at CF's Statement of Faith would be called Nicene Christians.

Why the change?

We believe that the identity and qualifications of Christ to save the humanity is imperative to salvation.

And since salvation is what makes Christian faith Christian, we decided to point out the difference.

The icons for LDS, JW and Unitarians are currently grouped with non-Christian icons.

We do apologize to these groups for the hurt feelings, but the distinction in such areas is necessary.

Questions? Please.

On behalf of the Advisors,
Edial
Ed

Even though Jesus didn't say any of this, it provides future generations a glimpse into what went wrong and the current generation an example of what can go wrong when the living word is converted into petrified doctrine.

 

[A New Dawn]

Ed, I am not sure I even know how to express my concern any further except to ask a couple of questions.

How do I know you are a Christian? And how do you know I am a Christian?

You don't know, any more than I know, because you can't see my heart and I can't see your heart. But you know I have claimed to be a Christian, so you accept me for one, and vice versa for me accepting you. I am not sure why you refuse to offer that same respect for someone else, whose only difference is that they have a different icon. You can't see my heart but accept me on my word, but reject someone else's word on the matter. This is my biggest concern. I don't know how else to express it. It's just a sad day for CF.

 

[Theway]

Not since Christ became a babe in the womb. Jesus kept some of His divinity, but God never had a humanity. They WERE one in composition, whatever that was, but Christ was made fully human through the Holy Spirit---God never was human. They are one in spirit, in character since He was made a baby human in the womb. How---that'll be one of my first questions to them.

I'm sorry but that only makes it more confusing. For it seems you are now saying that Christ was not fully divine, i.e. fully God while He was on earth???

Yet the irony is that you can still use the Christian icon on this forum. Because after all, it's not really what you believe about the Trinity, it's what what Church you belong to.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am not.
This was my secret because I knew it was a biggie.
If I would have told the pastor that I do not understand how a man Jesus was God he would have explained it to me.
If I would have rejected the explanation then I would not have been a member of that church.

OK, so you kept quiet about it because you knew what would happen if you spoke your doubts. Did that make you any less of a Christian? This is the whole crux of the matter! And I might point out that not being able to see the truth is not the same as rejection. It is just not fully understanding. When Christ saves us, we have no theology because we were sinners immediately prior to that experience! We have to start from ground zero, but if all we are surrounded by is errant theology, we will never know true theology. One must be in contact with it to hear it (remember we now have ears to hear) so we can accept it. To banish someone from a Christian area of the board and call them non-Christian just because they haven't had the good pleasure to have been surrounded by truth all their lives is not the way a Christian does things, IMO.

 

[Edial]

Obviously we are talking about two different CFs here. Because it was NEVER the place of CF to tell someone they weren't Christian. Even back with Erwin, it distinctly said so in the rules, that the rules were not created to tell people they weren't Christian, only to delineate who could post where. Heck, it was even a rule for a long time that you couldn't tell anyone (Christian, Buddhist, atheist, anyone) that they weren't a Christian. This is completely new for CF.


Yes, that was a decision made during my brief time not on staff, though. I did not participate in that decision, but it set up the system of basing the moderating on the content of the post rather than the icon of the individual (except in the CO areas). So if a Buddhist did claim a Christian icon, if the post contained material that conflicted with the Nicene Creed, it was deleted, essentially erasing what was said. I'm not seeing how any of this was a problem. It certainly eased lots of tensions on the board. I can only imagine that it's going to go back to being how it was before that change. Lots of drama.




We were not wrong in allowing someone who self-identified as Christian to be called one. It is supposed to be THEOLOGY we moderate on these boards, not people.

And we are moderating theology.
We would be asking people to stop misrepresenting themselves as Christians while promoting atheism (extreme example).

We will not be asking known LDS to change their plain Christian icon if they do not promote Mormon theology.
This MEANS we are not judging people, but their theology.

 

[GoingByzantine]

My fear is that CF will go the way of "ChristianChat" and begin banning groups like Catholics and Eastern Orthodox:

Catholic Heresy (for the record) - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

I do not view Mormons or JWs as Christians, but I also feel for them. They have posted here for years, and then literally within a day they are told that they are no longer "Christian". It scares me this could one day happen to any group on this site.

Ed, can we get some reassurance that this will not happen?

Thanks,

GB

 

[Edial]

OK, so you kept quiet about it because you knew what would happen if you spoke your doubts. Did that make you any less of a Christian? This is the whole crux of the matter! And I might point out that not being able to see the truth is not the same as rejection. It is just not fully understanding. When Christ saves us, we have no theology because we were sinners immediately prior to that experience! We have to start from ground zero, but if all we are surrounded by is errant theology, we will never know true theology. One must be in contact with it to hear it (remember we now have ears to hear) so we can accept it. To banish someone from a Christian area of the board and call them non-Christian just because they haven't had the good pleasure to have been surrounded by truth all their lives is not the way a Christian does things, IMO.

What you are saying is that an individual is saved before one believes. It is Calvinism which is fine. Believe it.
You asked me if not believing that Jesus was God made me any less Christian. I am not even sure I was a Christian then.

I was drawn very strongly and God led me and clearly was with me.

Salvation comes when we believe Jesus identity as He claims it to be, not what I would like him to be.

There is no such thing as an atheist Christian because they believe in another Christ.
There is no such thing as Buddhist Christians because they believe in another Christ.
There is no such thing as Mormon Christian because they believe in another Christ.
And all 3 refer to the historical Jesus.

Being a Christian means believing in a true Christ. Christ is not even his name. "Christ" means the Anointed One.

There is only one Anointed One who has a unique description.
Christ said unless you believe who I claim to be you will perish in your sins. And He claimed to be the I AM.

That is why God honed me and taught me some 25 years ago when I had my doubts, so I fully understood what Christian actually means.

If someone would have told me then I was not a christian because I did not believe in the deity of Christ, I guarantee you I would not have been upset or insulted but would have said like many other characters in the Bible - What should I do to be saved?

I think you are worried more about peoples' feelings more than actually telling people they are still in their sins if they do not receive Christ as who He claimed to be.

 

[Ran77]

I have some questions.

The LDS are no longer allowed to post on the Unorthodox forums, is that correct?

When does that go into effect?

The LDS are expected to post on the Ministry - Outreach - World Religions forum, is that correct?

Is debate allowed on the World Religions forum?

 

[Edial]

Ed, I am not sure I even know how to express my concern any further except to ask a couple of questions.

How do I know you are a Christian? And how do you know I am a Christian?

You don't know, any more than I know, because you can't see my heart and I can't see your heart. But you know I have claimed to be a Christian, so you accept me for one, and vice versa for me accepting you. I am not sure why you refuse to offer that same respect for someone else, whose only difference is that they have a different icon. You can't see my heart but accept me on my word, but reject someone else's word on the matter. This is my biggest concern. I don't know how else to express it. It's just a sad day for CF.

If a Buddhist claims to be a Christian, what would you say in the context of CF?

 

[Edial]

My fear is that CF will go the way of "ChristianChat" and begin banning groups like Catholics and Eastern Orthodox:

Catholic Heresy (for the record) - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

I do not view Mormons or JWs as Christians, but I also feel for them. They have posted here for years, and then literally within a day they are told that they are no longer "Christian". It scares me this could one day happen to any group on this site.

Ed, can we get some reassurance that this will not happen?

Thanks,

GB

Catholics and EO believe in the Nicene Creed and the deity of Christ.
How can you possibly be NOT a Christian?

 

[A New Dawn]

I think you are worried more about peoples' feelings more than actually telling people they are still in their sins if they do not receive Christ as who He claimed to be.

LOL. I'm sorry, but is this a joke? Because, as any of the LDS here will tell you, I have no problem telling people they are still in their sins if they haven't accepted the truth about Christ and all that he taught.

But I see you have made this about me, now, rather than focusing on the issue. And that you have succeeded in accomplishing what you set out to do more than a year ago. Changing the nature of CF. Godspeed with all that brings to you, and staff. And my apologies to the the unorthodox Christians that this affects. This is not the CF I was a part of for so long.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Catholics and EO believe in the Nicene Creed and the deity of Christ.
How can you possibly be NOT a Christian?

That's all I need to hear!

Bless you

 

[Edial]

Good questions.

I have some questions.

The LDS are no longer allowed to post on the Unorthodox forums, is that correct?

When does that go into effect?

Probably tomorrow latest Tuesday.
Logistics need to be put in place.

The LDS are expected to post on the Ministry - Outreach - World Religions forum, is that correct?

Is debate allowed on the World Religions forum?

We would have debate tags on threads where you may debate in a similar way you are doing here.

 

[A New Dawn]

If a Buddhist claims to be a Christian, what would you say in the context of CF?

I would say that the angels in heaven are rejoicing if this is a true statement, and then I would observe to see the fruit he bears. I am not stupid. I can tell if someone has claimed an icon for the purpose of being able to argue with Christians in order to attempt to refute them, but I would not ever argue with his statement about being a Christian. I would discipline them, as I did many times as a staff member, and remind them of the rules, and also remind them that, if they were truly a Christian, they would heed the words of Christ rather than promote false teachings.

 

[Edial]

LOL. I'm sorry, but is this a joke? Because, as any of the LDS here will tell you, I have no problem telling people they are still in their sins if they haven't accepted the truth about Christ and all that he taught.

So what is the problem then?
CF is saying the exact same thing but more directly.

But I see you have made this about me, now, rather than focusing on the issue. And that you have succeeded in accomplishing what you set out to do more than a year ago. Changing the nature of CF. Godspeed with all that brings to you, and staff. And my apologies to the the unorthodox Christians that this affects. This is not the CF I was a part of for so long.

We are not doing anything different from you telling Mormons they are still in their sins if they haven't accepted Christ for who he is.

And I also apologize to the LDS and JW and Unitarians for possible hurt feelings.

 

[Edial]

I would say that the angels in heaven are rejoicing if this is a true statement, and then I would observe to see the fruit he bears. I am not stupid. I can tell if someone has claimed an icon for the purpose of being able to argue with Christians in order to attempt to refute them, but I would not ever argue with his statement about being a Christian. I would discipline them, as I did many times as a staff member, and remind them of the rules, and also remind them that, if they were truly a Christian, they would heed the words of Christ rather than promote false teachings.

Fine, so what's the problem?

This is what I would do.
If I see a Buddhist claiming to be a Christian I would suggest he changes the icon so he has access to Christian Only areas.
I would also remind him if he teaches Buddhist teachings there, it is against the rules.
If he says then he believes in Christ-consciousness and that makes him a Christian, I would remind him that a Buddhist theology is not Christian.

Biblical Christianity has a "patent" on the word Christian.
Why should we give it up?

You and I are saying the same thing. I just phrase it more directly.

 

[Theway]

I should have clarified (I thought it was understood), Christian belief is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the same essence in the context of divinity.
We are not of that essence.

Now wait a minute.... Why the double standard all of the sudden? Didn't you just tell Ran77 that it doesn't matter how a person defines their own religion within context that matters, but how it is plainly interpreted by someone outside our faith which will be the one you go with?

Now when the same criteria is placed upon you, all of the sudden we have to ignore the plain understanding of your statement and instead rely on some unknown context?

You can do what you guys want... But your reasoning for doing it, is about as confusing as The Trinity doctrine you base it on.